Opioids Suboxone Ruins Opiate Receptors?

[beengerman]

i have heard various people say that suboxone maintenance can have a permanent effect on your opiate receptors.
They say it dulls them and you can't experience opiates like you used to know matter how long you have been off of it.
Is there any sort of truth in this?

 

[cj]

Bump.. im interested in some scientific answers as well. I have noticed that bupe has my tolerance jacked up and thats from taking 2mg a day for a couple years.

 

[The Dope Man]

if you take the dose they prescribed to you 8-16mg a day or whatever, than ya it its ganna make your tolerance sky-rocket which is your recptors being damaged.

NOBODY and I mean NOBODY needs to be on 8mg+ of suboxone a day.

 

[Tommyboy]

I was prescribed suboxone for 18 months, and it seems like ever since I have been off my tolerance will never go down below a certain point. When I initially stopped it took a few months before I could get a proper high. After taking breaks for over 4 months at a time I could get a good high off of a moderate dose of hydrocodone or oxycodone, but after the first high my tolerance immediately jumped up. Prior to suboxone I could still get high from hydrocodone if I took a 2 week break, but after it I can only get one high if I take over a month off.

I wouldn't say that suboxone ruins the receptors, but it certainly seems to have done some permanent damage. I can still get high though, and while keeping my use to once a week or less 90mg of oxycodone will have me extremely high, but that's kind of a high dose considering how infrequent I was using it after I got off the suboxone. Even after taking 6 months off I can take 60mg of oxycodone and be fine, but then my tolerance quickly goes up if I use even just 2x a week. The only good thing is that my tolerance seems to level off at around 90-120mg, and I never really need more than that unless I am on a binge.

 

[cj]

^^^
What dose where you on tommyboy?

 

[Fire&Water]

Never used suboxone only subutex, still sounds like pure bullshit.

 

[Tony Williams]

First Buprenorphine is very odd, it's similer to Fent in the way the dosage is well off the chart, it's unlike Morphine, Methadone and Herion. One thing with bupe is it's HARD to overdose on and saturates a certain part of the receptiors so it's possible to be on a massive dose like 8000-32000mg and stay alive however unlike Methadone thats well documented for 40-60 years and we've generations of addicts we dont really have any so people going on these doses for 5yr+ we cannot be sure what it'll do.

Bupe is like 5-10yr old in thesee doses - it was about in 80s but Subutex came about 2001 ish and most of eu/uk 2005+ so we dunno what the damage is. What it says on paper and r/l is 2 diff things.

in Sweden and some EU countries there are "bupe" addicts yes people addicted to bupe, who got that way through shooting and snorting pills (usually), people seem to up thier dose once it dies off so they are addicted to snorting 2-3x 8mg tabs a day. Now I know doctors in Swden I heard are saying "STOP taking bupe in these manners and swap to SUBLINGAL" then people are moaning to be on 40mg-100mg so the Docs just fast taper them right down to 8mg. I know they say this, that you can damage your receiptors being on high amounts for years. I know theres not 100% evidecence though but still poss and I read a guy was on a huge dose for years and detoxed but years and years morphine would not work in hospital nor would many other pain meds as his brain was tolerent,

MY advice to anyone on 8mg+ is to TRY and get down to 4-8mg and stablise thier. Myself had trouble even at 16mg for awhile I went upto 24mg per day and now back to 16mg I do plan in the future on lowering it. I was on high amounts of methadone IV and Heroin IV

 

[Tommyboy]

^^^
What dose where you on tommyboy?

High. Usually 16mg but was prescribed more. This was 6 years ago before I even knew what the drug was, and had only heard the name mentioned once before, but had no idea about any specifics about it.

 

[Gordon]

There has also been talk of that the more sub you take and the longer you take it the more chance opiates breaking through, even if your still on sub. Since some people take so much for so long it becomes your new normal, its like its part of you, so since one has taken sub for a long time the sub doesnt work anymore where it blocks opiates but infact can receive opiates just like a sober person. The downside is that it means it will take a very long time to feel even half normal once you quit sub.

 

[BIGsherm7272]

This is quite interesting, I was on roughly 2-4mg of bupe for about 4 months in 2010, and even to this day the euphoria is not the same as it was before bupe treatment, I can still take very high doses (100+mg of oxycodone) every few months, and still not feel that same overpowering euphoria I once had before bupe. I was also on SSRI's for about a year at the same time I was on bupe, I also believe that somehow SSRI's have permanently (or at least long-term) effected my overall pleasure from drugs and life. I still cant even roll that hard to this day.

I hate to sound all paranoid and get into conspiracy theories, but what if drugs such as bupe and SSRI's were designed to permanently alter the way certain drugs make you feel? Probably just my paranoia coming out a little......but you never know.

 

[BiggDirty01]

I too had problems post-subutex with euphoria and what not and I would simply suggest using a few of the potentiation techniques in the Opiate Potentiation Mega Thread. It has tons of OTC and other meds that can help you get to where you want to be.

 

[beengerman]

And if this is true , then what is the longest amount of time you can stay on suboxone without having it cause permanent damage?

 

[lilmizer]

Such a dearth of empirical evidence of everyone's claims... "ruining receptors" sounds clinical! LOL

 

[DooMMooD]

Its true.

Ever since I started a sub program, getting high is no where near the same. And I have been on a low dose since my start (3mg, now at 2.5mg). Even if I were to go weeks and weeks with NO suboxone, the high will not be, and is not, the same

I am not talking about empirical statistical #s. I'm talking about every single suboxone patient I know from my sub clinic. You can talk about #s till the cows come home, but what I have seen in reality and in person is that it does ruin getting high.

Fucks with your neurochemistry long term, down regulates receptors, etc etc etc. I'm sure you could find some scientific data supporting this, and I once read something along those lines.

Just like they say NA/AA ruins drinking, so too does suboxone ruin opiates.

This IS all anecdotal information. But from where I sit, it seems to be the truth. If anyone can show me evidence showing the opposite, I will be more than happy to read it and educate myself. But, as far as what I have personally experienced, and observed, it does ruin getting high permanently.

Sources: been on a suboxone program since dec, see dozens and dozens and dozens of other patients who say the same thing.

This is also different fyi from BREAKING THROUGH. Yes you can break through, but the high will never be the same.

 

[mindtools]

How?
The high is not pleasant or it you can't get high (eg in normal doses)?

 

[burn out]

Ruins opiate receptors obviously isn't the technical term but I think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that subocone causes long term changes to opiate receptors that traditional opiates like morphine and heroin do not. This is why people report feeling withdrawal for 6 months to a year after getting off suboxone and why people report not getting the same effects from their opiate of choice. Subuxone has done something to their brains.

These super potent synthetic drugs with strange effects tend to cause more long term problems than natural opiates. Of course the good news is that suboxone is a miracle drug for some people when used short term to come off opiates. But nothing as good as suboxone comes for free. There are always has to be a downside and the downside of suboxone is long term damage.

 

[Tommyboy]

I think that a lot of it has to do with people underestimating its potency, as well as that the drug is in you 24/7 so your body gets really used to operating with the suboxone in it. A lot of people expect their tolerance to go down while on suboxone, but soon find themselves in over their head, depending on their dosage and previous usage of course.

I know that for me I got on suboxone to make treatment court a hell of a lot easier, but since I was already being drug tested once a week I would get high right after the test, the next two days, then stop until after the next test the following week. I was getting high as can be from sniffing 4 bags of dope, but even on the other days I didn't do that much since I couldn't afford it. So when I went to the doctor and he put me on 16mg/day not only was I using 4 days more a week, but it was a steady dose that was as potent as the highest dosage of heroin or oxy I was using at the time.

So after 18 months of that it was no wonder my receptors were shot, and it took forever for them to get back to normal. 4 years later and I still have the same tolerance that I did right before I got on suboxone, but that's only because I never went above 4 bags, and usually do that once a week and sniff a bag or two every other day to stay well.

 

[burn out]

I think that a lot of it has to do with people underestimating its potency, as well as that the drug is in you 24/7 so your body gets really used to operating with the suboxone in it. A lot of people expect their tolerance to go down while on suboxone, but soon find themselves in over their head, depending on their dosage and previous usage of course.

I know that for me I got on suboxone to make treatment court a hell of a lot easier, but since I was already being drug tested once a week I would get high right after the test, the next two days, then stop until after the next test the following week. I was getting high as can be from sniffing 4 bags of dope, but even on the other days I didn't do that much since I couldn't afford it. So when I went to the doctor and he put me on 16mg/day not only was I using 4 days more a week, but it was a steady dose that was as potent as the highest dosage of heroin or oxy I was using at the time.

So after 18 months of that it was no wonder my receptors were shot, and it took forever for them to get back to normal. 4 years later and I still have the same tolerance that I did right before I got on suboxone, but that's only because I never went above 4 bags, and usually do that once a week and sniff a bag or two every other day to stay well.

Wait are you still on suboxone now? If not, how can you stay well using every other day?

 

[Tommyboy]

^ No, I was on it for 18 months between 2007-2008.

How can I stay well using every other day? When since my body is used to using every other day, it takes it that long before withdrawals start. I have found that withdrawals start when you usually get your next fix. Like when I used to use fri-sun, I wouldn't start getting sick until thurday which was 4 days after my last dose, and that was of dope or oxy. My body was just used to that pattern of use, so would start to get out of whack when it didn't get that dose when it normally did. Also, sniffing dope keeps me well longer than shooting, so that helps me skip a day with little discomfort.

 

[burn out]

I used to sniff dope every third day. I started getting withdrawals the night before the day I was supposed to use and would have to endure a whole night of insomnia. Niothing severe of course, but wd for sure.

Thats how I got addicted. I thought "well I could either toss and turn all night or I could sniff a little line and be on top of the world".

Snorting keeps me well much longer than shooting too, about 40% longer believe it or not. Thats why I wonder if I had shot up every thrd day rather than snffed, if perhaps I could have avoided getting a habit, since all the dope woulda been out of my system sooner. One time I failed a drug test FIVE DAYS after my last use of snorting dope and I had only been using every rthird day before that so I was not even a heavy user.