Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

I find it hard to believe you've been in this game as long as you say you have if you're still deluding yourself into thinking it's actually possible to "use once a month"... I mean, come on man. You don't realize how you are sounding to everyone else. You're coming up with every justification in the book but you're only lying to yourself, homie.

 

[adder]

I got down to 2mg and kind of started stabilizing on it. I could go through a day even with less than 2mg, and eventually I began getting some high off it. And it turned out bad as the high wears off quicker than general effects, so more and more often I would feel as if I were withdrawing mentally and then I can do little about it, because more buprenorphine doesn't calm me. Redosing gives me some relief, but I also get a feeling that I'm about to burst with buprenorphine. It's really making me tired, I'm far from being stable, and for 1.5 years it's been problems almost all the time. It's still dependency after all, I can actually feel the urge to take it, but its "quality" is less.

I end up thinking all day long what full agonist is the easiest to get for me now... And I'm thinking, why buprenorphine after all? What is it about? Partial agonism or actually long duration and slow dissociation from the receptors? Whose agenda is buprenorphine? It does make me abstain from the drug I was originally addicted to, but it's only because I know the drug doesn't work now, but mentally I'm all the time like "morphine, morphine, morphine". These cravings actually make me more mentally exhausted than some actual psychophysical withdrawal. Etorphine could be a better solution for more people, it would similarly block abuse, because even if one got high once, it would be impossible to repeat it, you would have to abstain from it until you feel really bad, because it slowly dissociates from the receptors in the same way buprenorphine does, but instead it's also a full agonist. Or not really would it work...

I don't really feel like relapsing, I've lost so much life, but neither methadone nor buprenorphine are a good solution.

 

[Eveleivibe]

I feel a lot better now today...With sub, its not really the dose so much as how long it takes to stabilize...A lot of people think its the dose, and that's why everyone takes so much...

I've tried taking higher doses in hopes that it would help, but it doesn't really do much...dose matters to an extent, of course....

Every time I've slipped up and done dope in the few years since I quit, its really fucked me up and made me actually think there was something else wrong with me! But then, I finally start to feel better and realize its the just the drugs!

I've always been able to deal with it, but as I get on into my thirties, It seems to get more difficult....Sure age plays a part in it, but my body is so used to heroin, its amazing how just a few days on heroin, going back on sub is almost as hard as if I had been using for a few years!

Of course I don 't know you but going by what I say I agree it's the drugs more than there being something wrong with you. The pathways n receptors in the brain get conditioned to receiving the opiates that it begins normality and a need - just as it is to need food or water. I often hear people being diagnosed with certain disorders after years of drug addiction n wonder if it's just as I said n that they're reading too much into things. Of course I don't know people personally n their life-history so I can't really tell. And during my addiction I wondered if there was something so I understand how easy the mind can play that game on you n for me it was just codeine.

With subs I think the argument will go on until the end of time n that there can be no definite answer simply because drugs affect everyone in different ways. For you, and other, the dose does not make a different n it's the stabilisation period that is vital. For me , I think the dose has made a huge impact as things have improved for me since I've increased from 8 mg to 12 mg.

However, with saying that during that time my parents kept a watchful eye on me n I had no way of accessing codeine, turned to alcohol drinking heavily per evening. So by doing so, I may not have giving myself time to stabilise on suboxone to see if it would block cravings at 8mg. My alcohol consumption may have had an affect n increased craving counteracting the suboxone blocking affect (I know when I finally got my hands on some codeine n had like 400mg I could feel that no matter what people say.

I don't even want it or think about it on 12mg I can read people talking about taking it n not feel a thing which is ace. But you do have a honest to be honest. And I'm really glad you're feeling better. Not to creep you out but we're all here for you if you're worried about relapsing again n need someone to talk to.

Evey

Boston (and PLEASE don't jump down my throat. Maybe you need to stabilise on suboxone? You seem to change your dose on a daily basis you need to figure out how much you're going to take n stick to it or you're basically wasting it. I think you're in denial over this.

 

[adder]

I agree with you that the dose matters. At 8mg I felt much less mental cravings than I do now at 2mg, but the efficacy really is limited by buprenorphine's partial agonism at some dose. For me at 12-16mg only side effects seem to rise, the limit may be a bit different for different people, but it's there. I think buprenorphine has a higher efficacy in people who don't feel the need to feel opioid effects any more, but they still have a problem quitting opioids, because they have a hard time coping with physical withdrawal. I think I got to that point when I thought I didn't want to take methadone any more, quit it, but PAWS was killing me. Going too low with the dose may have a reverse effect, I started having more cravings at a low dose, again. There's a reason why you're right away put at a dose not lower than 2mg before starting maintenance treatment, and then it's increased.

We could debate whether additional buprenorphine's effects like kappa antagonism and so on are positives or negatives, but there are currently probably as much cons as there are pros, so it's pointless. After years of being addicted to opioids and benzodiazepines I came to a conclusion "whatever works for you is good". Addiction is such a negative life changer that I think nobody should be laughed at because of their way of coping with it.

 

[Zwanya]

I used oxycodone for around 15 years (and heroin for the final 6 months while living in Asia) before starting suboxone. Those last 2 years were horrible. I wanted to quit so badly but just couldn't find the right time, or have the right support in place, or have the nerve to do it. I would stop for a few months and then relapse. This went on for awhile. Finally I found an affordable sub doc in my area and called her late on a Sunday night. She answered. That was 3 years ago.

My perspective on relapse is simple--the destruction and chaos that dope wrecks on my life, let alone the inner destruction it causes, just isnt worth the hour/night/week of feeling good. It really isn't worth it. Life is better without the roller coaster. And without the lies.

 

[Eveleivibe]

I agree with you that the dose matters. At 8mg I felt much less mental cravings than I do now at 2mg, but the efficacy really is limited by buprenorphine's partial agonism at some dose. For me at 12-16mg only side effects seem to rise, the limit may be a bit different for different people, but it's there. I think buprenorphine has a higher efficacy in people who don't feel the need to feel opioid effects any more, but they still have a problem quitting opioids, because they have a hard time coping with physical withdrawal. I think I got to that point when I thought I didn't want to take methadone any more, quit it, but PAWS was killing me. Going too low with the dose may have a reverse effect, I started having more cravings at a low dose, again. There's a reason why you're right away put at a dose not lower than 2mg before starting maintenance treatment, and then it's increased.

We could debate whether additional buprenorphine's effects like kappa antagonism and so on are positives or negatives, but there are currently probably as much cons as there are pros, so it's pointless. After years of being addicted to opioids and benzodiazepines I came to a conclusion "whatever works for you is good". Addiction is such a negative life changer that I think nobody should be laughed at because of their way of coping with it.

Brilliant post!

 

[Ziggy stardust]

I got down to 2mg and kind of started stabilizing on it. I could go through a day even with less than 2mg, and eventually I began getting some high off it. And it turned out bad as the high wears off quicker than general effects, so more and more often I would feel as if I were withdrawing mentally and then I can do little about it, because more buprenorphine doesn't calm me. Redosing gives me some relief, but I also get a feeling that I'm about to burst with buprenorphine. It's really making me tired, I'm far from being stable, and for 1.5 years it's been problems almost all the time. It's still dependency after all, I can actually feel the urge to take it, but its "quality" is less.

I end up thinking all day long what full agonist is the easiest to get for me now... And I'm thinking, why buprenorphine after all? What is it about? Partial agonism or actually long duration and slow dissociation from the receptors? Whose agenda is buprenorphine? It does make me abstain from the drug I was originally addicted to, but it's only because I know the drug doesn't work now, but mentally I'm all the time like "morphine, morphine, morphine". These cravings actually make me more mentally exhausted than some actual psychophysical withdrawal. Etorphine could be a better solution for more people, it would similarly block abuse, because even if one got high once, it would be impossible to repeat it, you would have to abstain from it until you feel really bad, because it slowly dissociates from the receptors in the same way buprenorphine does, but instead it's also a full agonist. Or not really would it work...

I don't really feel like relapsing, I've lost so much life, but neither methadone nor buprenorphine are a good solution.

This is just how I felt on sub...it was just a opiate replacement. What's the point? Why not do a full agonist (methadone) and get something out of it. Sub always felt "dirty", not a good feeling.
And who's agenda? I'm going to have to say the pharmaceutical companies... they know they are going to get repeat business..

 

[bukweat]

Man, I look back and see what a train-wreck my life has been but to watch someone else go back to dope is like watching a tragedy unfold(a plane going down in slow motion) It's like I want to grab them by the collar and shake them to make them see what they're doing.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Yeah, when you're in a position of sobriety you can see other people and just how much denial they have, every justification, every reason, etc. I'm always like... shit, did I sound this delusional in the past to other people? Hah. And the answer is yes. I did.

 

[Ziggy stardust]

I know...who here hasn't said "just this one time", only to see it spiral out of control, and your right, it's hard to watch.
When you stop romancing the dope is when you get better...

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Yeah. If you're still at the point where you think you can "chip", or follow through on rules you'll set, like using once a month, or once a week... you're not going to stay clean and you're not ready to.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^^

I find it hard to believe you've been in this game as long as you say you have if you're still deluding yourself into thinking it's actually possible to "use once a month"... I mean, come on man. You don't realize how you are sounding to everyone else. You're coming up with every justification in the book but you're only lying to yourself, homie.

lol. dude, re-read what I wrote. also, why do you guys think I come on here to OVERKILL and pretend I am the BIGGEST JUNKIE EVER! thats not even what I want; I'd expect others to live a tougher life than me on here. I was always a functioning junkbox but it stopped in sometime in 2012 and till Aug 2013 THAT IS WHAT BROUGHT ME HERE TODAY! I am far from bragging homie about how much dope I do, what I can, etc. I HATE those tho think cuz a high tolerance is a cool thing; damn, I'd rather shoot a $10 bag a day and say I am high; I am the one in the sucky position by paying a lot.

Mr. Scag - I said "PICTURE THAT" meaning, IMAGINE.. having the ability to only use ONCE OR TWICE A MONTH AT OUR LEVEL. meaning that there is NO FUCKING WAY IT CAN BE DONE w/o causing long term probs. I've seen it done for a few months or so, but it always goes back daily. 1-2 month becomes, 1 time every other week. then its once a week. then only on weekends. then its only Fri-Sun, then its youre fucking down and out and on your fucking knees w/ shit.

trust me, buddy.. I have an idea. CALL ME OUT all you'd like. I am not into being the Message Board Master; but I do enjoy it here and just talking drugs (unfortunately something I know) and this junked out lifestyle. I have no one in real life to talk much about it, how I did it, what went on, etc. I a lot of it from most friends, but they easily saw me falling apart regardless. but on here it's diff, but yet I get Mr. Scag TRYING to call me out on dumb shit? dude, read before you write. lol. I wasnt saying it can be done. Realize that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

one more thing to add since im already in this section; after coming off a weekend of using, I waited about 24hrs and only took a 4MG dose of bupe in AM and 4MG in PM; felt great day. here I am today w/ a full 8MG in the morning (only dose of day) and already feel great. kinda nice. dont remember going back to the bupe this easy in my heavier using days.

 

[Ziggy stardust]

But Dude, you are in denial. The comment about "sniffing it wasn't a "real" slip so you went out and got more to bang". You don't see that as delusional?

 

[Jabberwocky]

that was kinda of a joke. we can call it denial, but I am fully aware of what occurred. I sniffed; brought back thoughts of what a SHOT WOULD have felt like; Sunday comes, just moved in, Pats game on, make a call, ran to store to buy needles before game started; didnt end up grabbing dope till end of game, first shot, BOOM.. as expected! actually, thats a lie. I shot .25 right away - EH. 15 mins later another .25 and THEN AS EXPECTED!

people can call it whatever they want; but I was fully aware of why/what/when. will it make sense to my Dr. if SOMEHOW I pissed dirty (dont see him till next Tuesday and its blood test), so ill be fine. I am more than confident in what I have NOW based on the adjustments I made in my life even OUTSIDE of the drugs; just my lifestyle, work environments, who I was w/, GF, etc. I didnt just kick the dope, I kicked it ALL - ALL BAD STUFF that brought me down.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

lol. dude, re-read what I wrote. also, why do you guys think I come on here to OVERKILL and pretend I am the BIGGEST JUNKIE EVER! thats not even what I want; I'd expect others to live a tougher life than me on here. I was always a functioning junkbox but it stopped in sometime in 2012 and till Aug 2013 THAT IS WHAT BROUGHT ME HERE TODAY! I am far from bragging homie about how much dope I do, what I can, etc. I HATE those tho think cuz a high tolerance is a cool thing; damn, I'd rather shoot a $10 bag a day and say I am high; I am the one in the sucky position by paying a lot.

Mr. Scag - I said "PICTURE THAT" meaning, IMAGINE.. having the ability to only use ONCE OR TWICE A MONTH AT OUR LEVEL. meaning that there is NO FUCKING WAY IT CAN BE DONE w/o causing long term probs. I've seen it done for a few months or so, but it always goes back daily. 1-2 month becomes, 1 time every other week. then its once a week. then only on weekends. then its only Fri-Sun, then its youre fucking down and out and on your fucking knees w/ shit.

trust me, buddy.. I have an idea. CALL ME OUT all you'd like. I am not into being the Message Board Master; but I do enjoy it here and just talking drugs (unfortunately something I know) and this junked out lifestyle. I have no one in real life to talk much about it, how I did it, what went on, etc. I a lot of it from most friends, but they easily saw me falling apart regardless. but on here it's diff, but yet I get Mr. Scag TRYING to call me out on dumb shit? dude, read before you write. lol. I wasnt saying it can be done. Realize that.

Whatever, man. It's none of my business. You do what you want. I could care less either way.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Whatever, man. It's none of my business. You do what you want. I could care less either way.

exactly.

but at least admit to me you were wrong in the way it was read!? can you do me that favor? you do realize YOU made the mistake there, right? was it me saying "hey, ill use once a month". or was it me saying, "IMAGINE being able to use once a month". you'd think that IMAGINE part would give people the idea that I know it CANT BE DONE! never even tried because I know I'd fall flat on my face; although, at this point you can say I am on that path since I did use this month. well, let's see what the next USE, if ever, comes into play.

use or not, I am happy as a motherfucker right now, man. you people dont have a CLUE as to where I once was and what I was once doing.

sometimes I think about it; how do the REAL BAD HOMELESS JUNKIES GET TO A COMPUTER AND HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE TO WRITE ON A MESSAGE BOARD?! I've met PLENTY of people in my time who would not have a CLUE on how to go about something like this; so it makes me think that a lot of us here live/lived that somewhat type junkie lifestyle rather than just straight street bum/hustle. and for those who have, and now have he computer infront of them, god bless yah!

although, I did post on another "drug" board when I was in a halfway house using the WIFI there. that was back in 05, tho. at that times I was at least 9 month to a year sober and had a great run of sobriety then.

 

[bukweat]

None of my business either Boston, but you were painting a path prior to that comment and it was leading back to where so many of us had gotten back to using. Shit will Fuck a person up in no time and we're right back to using and , well you obviously know what that entails.

 

[Eveleivibe]

Why do you still have thise contacts in your phone? Why did you not delete those numbers when you made the decision to enter into recovery? You don't have to answer that to us but to yourself. You appear very defensive. No one here is judging you we just care n are trying to help just as we'd do any other BL member. Sometimes it's best to tel a person what they DON'T want to hear as opposed to what they DO want. Took me a LONG time to realise this n I acted very much how you're acted - defensive.
If we turned around n said thats ace you used n yeah you're one of the unique ones who can get away with it n encouraged n basically agreed with everything you're saying we wouldn't be thinking HR which is basically why we're hear.

 

[Effect]

Had my sub appointment yesterday and I guess I got 'lucky' cause they were pretty busy and I didn't meet with the main guy that signs all the scripts. Instead I met with this chick who I've met with once before and she is just generally a lot more laid back. She ended up letting me come back in 3 weeks rather than the 2 it was supposed to be and she wrote me for a few extra strips "incase I have a day where I need them".

When I first read the patient contract for this place I couldn't believe all the hoops it looked like I was going to have to jump through just to get subs. They must just give new patients that to scare off the ones who are 'undesirables' cause I haven't had to do anything too annoying. Sure the drug tests suck but they're so easy to substitute if the need arises. I've been dirty for weed a few weeks too and they just bring it up and ask me if I'm working on cutting it down which leads me to believe they think I smoke everyday which is definitely not the case.

BBT, I had no idea MGH West End Clinic did blood tests on their sub patients. Not really sure about the detection times when it comes to those. I was all set up for West End Clinic at about the same time you were going there and it didn't end up happening cause my hospital stay got extended. I could have known you in person and not even know we both post here.