Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v16.0

[Not Again]

Went in again today. They gave my meds all the way through next monday. They're starting to trust me. my dose on sunday is 6mg, today was last day on 10.Tomorrow will be 8.

I asked more questions about the last doses and they said they go down to 1 mg for 3 days and then 1 mg every other day for a week and then 1 mg every 3rd day "If needed".

Seems kinda strange, but it's their ride and I'm aboard.

They will also give me some other med. The Dr said I will feel it but it will be minimal. Also said that 95% patients that do this program do not experience PAWS.

Can that be true?

He also mentioned that if I fail and go back to the pills after this they won't allow me back for 3 months.So that's 3 months of hell while I wait to get back in. So this is it. I want to be normal by Christmas.

 

[Tommyboy]

^ I don't think that they can determine the PAWS thing really. For one thing, they would be going by the amount of people that don't go back to using afterwards, and so obviously the people still clean probably didn't experience PAWS as much which was why they didn't go back to using. The other thing is that I don't see how PAWS can be avoided, it's something that either happens or doesn't happen to a person. It's you body/mind slowly adjusting to no longer having drugs in it, so that's why I don't see how it can be avoided by the way you taper.

Hello everyone. Im new to BL so bear with me. I am on suboxone maintenance and I want to switch to methadone. I take roughly 8 to 10 mg sublingauly a day. How many hours do I need to wait until I can get good strong effects from methadone dose of 50-70 mg? And also is there any tip to help rid my system of the suboxone faster so I wont have as much to bind to my receptors so there are ones open for methadone to bind to? Thanks and im eager to read everyone's replies!

You don't really have to wait. All that will happen if you take it too soon is you won't feel the methadone as much, but you won't be sick either. Then each day after that you will feel the methadone more and more. If you want to feel the methadone more then wait 36-48 hours to dose it, or however long it takes for you to start feeling withdrawals.

 

[kflow12626]

^You don't really have to wait. All that will happen if you take it too soon is you won't feel the methadone as much, but you won't be sick either. Then each day after that you will feel the metthadone more and more. If you want to feel the methadone more then wait 36-48 hours to dose it, or however long it takes for you to start feeling withdrawals.

When you say each day after that I will feel the methadone more and more do you mean that if I do a single dose 36 hours after my last suboxone that I will begin to feel that same single done more and more as the days go since methadone had a long half-life and since the suboxone will be wearing off? And do you think that a person with an 8 mg daily use of suboxone will get good effects from a 70 mg dose of methadone 48 hgours after last dose of suboxone?

 

[Eveleivibe]

actually, what BlueHues is saying is what I hear from a lot of people and I know it to be true from experience too. why don't u actually try taking 4 mg first and see what happens. I'll bet you end up feeling stupid for being an arrogant ass and dismissing someone else's experience because you aren't as mature but still think you know it all. Jerk

Let's all remember why we're on BL - for HR n to learn from on another so let's not call each other names n try to getalong or to respect each others' opinion. We all have something valid to give here - our personal experience. No one is right is wrong n it doesn't matter who knows more. We're here to help one another n to listen, to learn from each other. So let's all do that
Good day, evey xxx

 

[boundforglorywt]

Well I did it again BL, i ran out of my suboxone, but this time I at least made it last 5 days longer then it was suppose, I just can't afford my doctor visit right now.

So, I had to go to the hospital because i serious felt like death. Just to be told they can't help me or prescribe me suboxone because they don't have any doctors with the proper license to do so. They gave me clonodine while there and discharged me (clondine has no effect of me, i take it take for sleep(prescibed) I also took loperamide dosed it at 12-16mg every 4 hours (no effect)


wtf can i do? i have no money and no one to turn to (i was taking xanax again, so i'm guess i'm WD'ing from them too) another holiday down the drain because i suck at life.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hello everyone. Im new to BL so bear with me. I am on suboxone maintenance and I want to switch to methadone. I take roughly 8 to 10 mg sublingauly a day. How many hours do I need to wait until I can get good strong effects from methadone dose of 50-70 mg? And also is there any tip to help rid my system of the suboxone faster so I wont have as much to bind to my receptors so there are ones open for methadone to bind to? Thanks and im eager to read everyone's replies!

why the switch? better blockage? or just rather the done because of the effects?

I would prob be on methadone myself if it didnt require me going to a clinic everyday. but to be honest, the only reason I would even consider the methadone is because I feel it would get me JAMMED and for free; rather than subox that just kills my urge but gives me no "good" feelings.

 

[RTrain]

So I am on the 3rd day of Suboxone and all of a sudden I am jittery and anxious as all fuck. The same thing happened last time I got on Subs. Idk if its just this one day that I feel this so bad or what, but its not pleasant. Most the other issues are gone, like the typical opiate w/d stuff, but I am restless (not RLS just can't stay still) and my heart is racing. Been taking like .25 mg of xanax for last 2 weeks, down from using more than that prior for a few months. Now I took my 2nd to last .25 and it isn't helping much, so maybe its just the Subs that do this to me, too much maybe? But I kinda feel them wearing off a bit. Damn I'm just confused and not thrilled that I'm out of xanax.

All I can think to do is double up on my beta blocker right now. Its very cardiac specific, so it only really helps with the racing heart, not like a propanolol. Better than nothing, though.

 

[Fire&Water]

I really don't know what would even happen if I took 16mg of suboxone for 2 months...In 8 years, I've maybe taken that much for 3 consecutive days a few times when I was supervised in rehab...pretty much everyone I know feels like shit on them for 2-3 days and then 4 mgs will hold them for a day...A few people I know insist that they need 8, but the only people I've ever met who think they need 16 are either people who just got on them and are convinced that the're being prescribed what they actually need, or hardcore oxy users....

I've had multiple suboxone doctors tell me that all the long time heroin users he's treated seem to need less suboxone than any of the pill heads...Of course, when I had insurance I lied and said I needed 16mgs....

The way I see suboxone, the amount of time that it works to keep you well does seem to vary between people...I like to dose it every 12 hours, but that's because I only take 1.5mgs at a time, and I actually feel it for a little while when I take it...8mgs makes me actually feel kind of dopesick...not really dopesick, but I get a runny nose and I cant sleep....Definitely feel the lower doses more...

I've also never had any problems cutting down until it was anything under 4mgs...but getting from 4mgs to 2 mgs is 100 times easier than going from 2 to .5///It's just really hard not to cheat and take a little more...

So, I really don't understand how anyone could have trouble getting to fucking 8mgs, that just blows my mind!

I would have to agree with you (not sure about IV heroin use) most of them that post, comment that Bupe' does not relieve within a 36 hour withdrawal period, but yeah, anything over 2, 3, 4, mg's is a complete physical / mental waste of time and meds'...

 

[Fire&Water]

So I am on the 3rd day of Suboxone and all of a sudden I am jittery and anxious as all fuck. The same thing happened last time I got on Subs. Idk if its just this one day that I feel this so bad or what, but its not pleasant. Most the other issues are gone, like the typical opiate w/d stuff, but I am restless (not RLS just can't stay still) and my heart is racing. Been taking like .25 mg of xanax for last 2 weeks, down from using more than that prior for a few months. Now I took my 2nd to last .25 and it isn't helping much, so maybe its just the Subs that do this to me, too much maybe? But I kinda feel them wearing off a bit.

Sounds pretty typical of a dose higher than 3 - 4 mg's.

 

[Oh Pea It's]

So I was reading about the pharmacology of bupe yesterday and came across this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21395892

If I'm understanding this correctly, it suggests that naloxone actually does have a negative effect on buprenorphine in Suboxone formulations. Look at the graphs at the bottom and it's clear that the Suboxone users experienced less of a pleasurable experience than those on Subutex. Subutex users also had smaller pupils than the Suboxone users.

What do you guys think about this? Should I make a new thread so more people will see this?

 

[BlueHues]

So I was reading about the pharmacology of bupe yesterday and came across this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21395892

If I'm understanding this correctly, it suggests that naloxone actually does have a negative effect on buprenorphine in Suboxone formulations. Look at the graphs at the bottom and it's clear that the Suboxone users experienced less of a pleasurable experience than those on Subutex. Subutex users also had smaller pupils than the Suboxone users.

What do you guys think about this? Should I make a new thread so more people will see this?

There's oral formulations of oxycodone that contain naloxone to offset the constipation caused by long-term oxy use...This is because there's opiate receptors in the stomach and intestine that can still be affected by naloxone taken orally, even if it doesn't cross the Blood Brain Barrier....

Any subjective effect is negligible and mostly psychological...Even if it was real, naloxone only lasts for an hour anyway....Most of the people who insist that there's this huge difference between subutex and Suboxone are just ignorant...a lot of them actually believe that you can take buprenorphine alone while high on other opiates and not experience precipitated withdrawal..they think the naloxone is what causes it...Not true, just plain ignorance...Buprenorphine itelf is one of the most powerful antagonists there is, but it's also an opiate agonist...It's a strange drug..

 

[Not Again]

To the person that asked for suboxones dosage compared to oxy, 0.25mg of suboxone = 6-7mg of oxycodone (the chart actually says 5mg of oxy now, but for a while it said 6.7-7 and I thought that seemed more accurate considering it has hydrocodone at 10mg). That goes for sublingual suboxone and oral oxycodone. Now the ceiling dose of suboxone maxes out way lower than 16mg in this respect (I think they say it's closer to 4-6mg when it comes to analgesic affects and such, and the higher doses just work more for blocking and lasting longer) so that's why it doesn't work so well at first if you have a really big habit. IMO if your habit is above 300mg of oxycodone a day then it's going to take a few days to feel better on subs. Any habit below 200mg of oxy seems to be covered pretty well right off the bat from subs.

Disclaimer: I have very little idea what I'm talking about here. ( In case some poor guy reads and thinks it's true)
Thank you for this info. So If I understand it right it says that Sub is 40x stronger than morphine which is listed as a 1 strength. It lists Oxy as 1.5. So if Sub is 40X morphine then it is 26 ish X the strength of oxy.
Making 8 mg of Sub = 208 mg of oxy.

I dropped out of HS because I knew everything but please tell me if I'm on the right track.

So when they started me I was taking just a little more than my habit was. Now tapered down to 8 mg I am in fact only taking the equal worth of 208 mg oxy????

So my tolerance has been brought down? I haven't felt it. So if I was to go back to oxy, I would be ok on 200 mg?

Is this anywhere near right, or did I just make no sense/?

 

[Jabberwocky]

.25 of sub is 5MG of oxy Tommyboy mentions.

so .25 x's 4 = 1MG -- 5MG x's 4 - 20MG oxy.

so if you were doing 8MG of subox that is the equivalence to 160MG of oxy.

every 20MG's of oxy = 1MG of subox. much easier math than the .25 and 5MG stuff.

this all according to the math that was given here and under the assumption that 5MG's of oxy is equiv to .25MG of sub.

 

[stray cat]

it's all very subjective really, and for all practical purposes, i think it is impractical to try to compare buprenorphine to full agonist opiates. no matter how high my daily opiate use has gotten, i have always started on 2 mg of sub or less and started tapering in a few days. even when i tried starting at like 8 or whatever back when i first had access to bupe, i found that i felt off the first few days regardless. and this applies to me coming off everything from 90-100mg oxy to 1-2 grams of iv heroin

 

[BlueHues]

.25 of sub is 5MG of oxy Tommyboy mentions.

so .25 x's 4 = 1MG -- 5MG x's 4 - 20MG oxy.

so if you were doing 8MG of subox that is the equivalence to 160MG of oxy.

every 20MG's of oxy = 1MG of subox. much easier math than the .25 and 5MG stuff.

this all according to the math that was given here and under the assumption that 5MG's of oxy is equiv to .25MG of sub.

For analgesic purposes, that might be true...for maintenance urposes it's absolutely not true....

 

[Jabberwocky]

I agree w/ you there. It's all based on the person, the addiction, the body and a persons self.

I started high at 24MG and sunk to 16MG after a week and since then made my way down to 12MG (AM dose only). right now sticking w/ 12 because I am in no rush to get off this since it truly has changed my life over the last 3 months.
v
I've also used subs for a while when using dope. those were my 2-4MG days and I'd dose sub in the AM and use dope come PM. thats only if I had no junk left or didnt have the cash to buy any junk, which wasnt often, but did happen ALOT during the final stages of my last run.

do people think the original orange subox were better than these buprenorphine/nal generic pills and they feel just fine to me. I do hear alot of people say the original were way better and the strips are better as well but I see no difference. I've always done the original while using and it worked for what I used it for, which was just to kill time till I could score again.

 

[Jabberwocky]

For analgesic purposes, that might be true...for maintenance urposes it's absolutely not true....

why? when you say maintenance you mean STAYING CLEAN and not using both dope/sub together, right? who uses subox for pain anyway? how rarely will a dr. prescribed subox for pain?

how many times do we have to go back and forth about subox and how it's used? can we w/ what Stray Cat had to say and realize each person is affected differently/reacts differently?

 

[Not Again]

So second day at 8 mg. I am not feeling any drops , however the amount I take is so little already, 1 tablet. Sunday I go to 6 mg. I think I will be just fine until I go to 1 mg. I'm sure I will feel a little under the weather but nothing like QT.

I just can't wait to get this over with. I also have about 20 mg sub strips as backup in case their taper is too fast for me.

So I just want this to be over already.

 

[BlueHues]

why? when you say maintenance you mean STAYING CLEAN and not using both dope/sub together, right? who uses subox for pain anyway? how rarely will a dr. prescribed subox for pain?

how many times do we have to go back and forth about subox and how it's used? can we w/ what Stray Cat had to say and realize each person is affected differently/reacts differently?

There's no "going back and forth"...IDK, how about the day you actually find out what the fuck you're talking about instead of just thinking you fucking know everything?! Buprenorphine has a long history of being used as a painkiller before it was used as a maintenance drug. It was originally used in Europe as a maintenance drug before it was used in the US for this purpose, but due to the fact that a lot of people in France and certain Eastern European countries were dying from IVing Subutex, the FDA refused to approve it as a drug unless Naloxone was added, that's why we have "Suboxone" in the US...Even though, it was mostly the mixing of bupe with benzos(temazepam in particular) that were causing the ODs...and those people were generally IVing 1-2mgs or less....Do you really even know the difference between a partial and a full agonist opioid? I strongly suspect you don't!

Some of the disagreements I've had on here have been over "scientific facts" about different drugs...Someone with virtually no experience with a certain regional preparation of a drug will argue with me that something is "impossible" based on what they've studied about a certain drug, despite the fact that they're dismissing the experiences of thousands of users with firsthand empirical knowledge of the drug...These are usually arguments involving certain batches of meth or heroin having slight differences in the high, or certain batches of drugs having a longer duration than others...A lot of people like say "methamphetamine is methamphetamine, therefore; there should be no differences other than purity"...Those arguments get on my nerves...In general, I respect science and those who study the sciences, but you can't explain away anomalies that you can't account for simply by saying "That's not possible!"...

But you're just arguing based on you're on your own opinions based on limited experience, and you clearly haven't even made an attempt to do any independent research on the subject!....So there is no "back and forth"!...It's just me trying to stop a fucking idiot who doesn't know what he's talking bout from spreading misinformation.

And it's not like you're saying things like, "That's not true, in my experience" or using any tact whatsoever...You just can't seem to resist putting your fucking foot in your mouth with every other post you make!

 

[Jabberwocky]

There's no "going back and forth"...IDK, how about the day you actually find out what the fuck you're talking about instead of just thinking you fucking know everything?! Buprenorphine has a long history of being used as a painkiller before it was used as a maintenance drug. It was originally used in Europe as a maintenance drug before it was used in the US for this purpose, but due to the fact that a lot of people in France and certain Eastern European countries were dying from IVing Subutex, the FDA refused to approve it as a drug unless Naloxone was added, that's why we have "Suboxone" in the US...Even though, it was mostly the mixing of bupe with benzos(temazepam in particular) that were causing the ODs...and those people were generally IVing 1-2mgs or less....Do you really even know the difference between a partial and a full agonist opioid? I strongly suspect you don't!

Some of the disagreements I've had on here have been over "scientific facts" about different drugs...Someone with virtually no experience with a certain regional preparation of a drug will argue with me that something is "impossible" based on what they've studied about a certain drug, despite the fact that they're dismissing the experiences of thousands of users with firsthand empirical knowledge of the drug...These are usually arguments involving certain batches of meth or heroin having slight differences in the high, or certain batches of drugs having a longer duration than others...A lot of people like say "methamphetamine is methamphetamine, therefore; there should be no differences other than purity"...Those arguments get on my nerves...In general, I respect science and those who study the sciences, but you can't explain away anomalies that you can't account for simply by saying "That's not possible!"...

But you're just arguing based on you're on your own opinions based on limited experience, and you clearly haven't even made an attempt to do any independent research on the subject!....So there is no "back and forth"!...It's just me trying to stop a fucking idiot who doesn't know what he's talking bout from spreading misinformation.

And it's not like you're saying things like, "That's not true, in my experience" or using any tact whatsoever...You just can't seem to resist putting your fucking foot in your mouth with every other post you make!

dude, READ all you want; how long have you been on the drug? how often have you dealt w/ the drug while dragging out the habit. yes, go listen to the Dr.'s and others who have NO EXPERIENCE WHAT SO EVER in the drug besides what the medical world has to say.

get your head out of your ass and realize this is going to be different for each and everybody. it's not about stating scientific facts, you fucking fool. its about stating your experience w/ the drug and also what you've heard about the drug from your friends and also your current Dr.

stop reading the books and get on the fucking drug. go picked up a dope habit again and do it all again and base it on that, not what the fuck you hear. base it on the rate of sobriety and how many more stay sober at higher doses of subox than those prescribed lower doses. why's that, tho? is it because those people didnt read into the books headed back to the 50's? where in modern time you fucking whackjob, so open the fucking eyes and shut the fuck up and read. youre better off NOT talking.