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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ & Megathread v3; 2010 - 2022

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I agree. The other problem is that a lot of patients aren't exactly truthful to their suboxone doctors, since most are trying to get scripted more to either stash or sell, so doctors are getting a lot of incorrect feedback on the drug.

^That really is the other problem. Almost everyone I know prescribed Suboxone lies about how much they need to get extra, but the only people who seem to actually take 16+ mgs a day are people who haven't spoken to other people who have been on suboxone and think that they really need that much.

when I first went on Suboxone it only took me a few days to realize that 4mg was plenty. I personally believe 12mg(if that) is the most anyone could ever need, but I could be wrong.
 
^That really is the other problem. Almost everyone I know prescribed Suboxone lies about how much they need to get extra, but the only people who seem to actually take 16+ mgs a day are people who haven't spoken to other people who have been on suboxone and think that they really need that much.

when I first went on Suboxone it only took me a few days to realize that 4mg was plenty. I personally believe 12mg(if that) is the most anyone could ever need, but I could be wrong.

Yeah once you are stabilized on suboxone, it's very easy to get on a small dose and it feels the same as an incredibly high one.. better in fact as the nasty side effects from being on such a crazy dose go away when on 8mg's and below.

Getting down from 2mg's to 0 can be tough, but well worth it to become stabilized on a sub-milligram dose, especially once you try to come off. A big reason the doctors are putting people on this crazy high doses is to basically sign them up for life on that shit.
 
I agree. The other problem is that a lot of patients aren't exactly truthful to their suboxone doctors, since most are trying to get scripted more to either stash or sell, so doctors are getting a lot of incorrect feedback on the drug.
For my case i was 100% truthful, I didnt even know my psychiatrist prescribed suboxone when I saw him. I saw him to talk about my social anxiety issues and low motivation. He was the one that suggested suboxone, he had success with other patients for depression related issues. I had no idea, he gave me 8-16mg to begin then two weeks later (3 days ago) and gave me a script for 120 films.. To see which dose fits me best lol
 
A big reason the doctors are putting people on this crazy high doses is to basically sign them up for life on that shit.

There is actually clinical utility to larger doses - because of the half-life, when the drug is taken daily it accumulates considerably. A single 4mg dose will typically block the effects of someone's usual dose of an opioid for around 24 hours. This can vary where some people will not get as complete a blockade effect from that dose or the blockade's duration may be longer or shorter.

The main reason doctors are urged to push doses that are considerably above the threshold for maximum agonism (2-4mg) is because it drastically strengthens and prolongs the blockade effect. I can't count how many people I've known who used 1-2mg of suboxone on days where they couldn't cop or who would maintain on that most days so that when they wanted to/were able to get high, they easily could 12-36 hours later.

If someone is taking 8, 16 or 32mg/day, the amount of time they'd have to wait for the receptor saturation to clear is substantially longer. If someone has seriously struggled with an opioid habit, tried to quit and kept going back ensuring that every time they are tempted or even decide 'fuck it, I'm getting high', they have to wait 3, 4, 5 days, it seriously cuts down on the ability for a person to have a momentary lapse and slip up. If someone is genuinely trying to get clean, working a program or just serious about not going back to that life, that waiting period can make a huge difference.

With that said, there are a lot of doctors who are seriously mis- or under- informed, a lot of junkies who get extra to stash or sell and plenty of addicts who have no idea about the ceiling effect of agonism being as low as it is and think taking more and more will have a linear effect like full agonists. There are many factors that lead to widespread misunderstanding on this subject.

"It takes 24-32mgs of suboxone to completely saturate all the opioid receptors", they supposedly figured this out by using a brain-scan or something like that, a doctor told me how they arrived at this conclusion once, but it's clearly complete bullshit. Well, it does completely saturate your receptors, but it'[s way beyond any amount that someone actually needs to maintain an opiate habit!

I went to a state conference and attended a workshop with a Reckitt-Benckiser representative and discussed this with him. It's well-established that the ceiling effect to the opioid *agonist* effects is quite low but as discussed above, that is only part of the reason this medication is used. The reason this drug has become so widespread is because for a substantial amount of opioid users it can produce enough agonism to curb that craving that leads so many back time and again but it also helps to prevent using other opioids while on it (especially higher doses).

Methadone users can go out and shoot up on top of the methadone and while they might have some of the effects diminished through high-dose methadone increasing their tolerance, they can still feel the effects and they can still overdose quite easily.

Naltrexone users (whether via oral or implant) basically have their opioid receptors completely locked down so they can try to shoot up all they want and feel nothing but for so many, they are left with that lasting, nagging craving as well as the side effects of having their natural endorphins blocked as well.

Buprenorphine is intended to strike a balance and deal with both the craving and make it more difficult for users to get high via the blockade. The reported 32mg ceiling they found was the dose where there ceased to be any additional gains in the strength or duration of that blockade (again, according to the R-B representative).
 
Why do doctors push such heavy doses? You could say it's a money thing, but even on the NHS where the bupe is free, they're keen to push very high doses....

Also, my drug worker seems to have little accurate information on bupe; he thinks detoxing from it is completely painless, and that I could go from 12mg to 0 with little to no discomfort. Who trains these people!?
 
This coming Monday I'm going to try and use sub to stop oxy. I have 9 (8mg) Strips) I can get more. I'm going to try 2-4 mg first and wait like an hour to see if that's all I need. If all I need is 4 mg then the next day I will take a little less and so on and so forth till my 9 strips are gone or until I'm taking next to nothing.

So I understand sub allows your body to forgot about oxy. If you don't get addicted to sub and do this fast enough its possible to experience very mild to no discomfort when stopping the sub? Is that correct? It seems too good to be true.

But anyhow I'm sure the sub will make stopping way easier than no sub?? Is that correct?
 
There is actually clinical utility to larger doses - because of the half-life, when the drug is taken daily it accumulates considerably. A single 4mg dose will typically block the effects of someone's usual dose of an opioid for around 24 hours. This can vary where some people will not get as complete a blockade effect from that dose or the blockade's duration may be longer or shorter.

The main reason doctors are urged to push doses that are considerably above the threshold for maximum agonism (2-4mg) is because it drastically strengthens and prolongs the blockade effect. I can't count how many people I've known who used 1-2mg of suboxone on days where they couldn't cop or who would maintain on that most days so that when they wanted to/were able to get high, they easily could 12-36 hours later.

If someone is taking 8, 16 or 32mg/day, the amount of time they'd have to wait for the receptor saturation to clear is substantially longer. If someone has seriously struggled with an opioid habit, tried to quit and kept going back ensuring that every time they are tempted or even decide 'fuck it, I'm getting high', they have to wait 3, 4, 5 days, it seriously cuts down on the ability for a person to have a momentary lapse and slip up. If someone is genuinely trying to get clean, working a program or just serious about not going back to that life, that waiting period can make a huge difference.

With that said, there are a lot of doctors who are seriously mis- or under- informed, a lot of junkies who get extra to stash or sell and plenty of addicts who have no idea about the ceiling effect of agonism being as low as it is and think taking more and more will have a linear effect like full agonists. There are many factors that lead to widespread misunderstanding on this subject.



I went to a state conference and attended a workshop with a Reckitt-Benckiser representative and discussed this with him. It's well-established that the ceiling effect to the opioid *agonist* effects is quite low but as discussed above, that is only part of the reason this medication is used. The reason this drug has become so widespread is because for a substantial amount of opioid users it can produce enough agonism to curb that craving that leads so many back time and again but it also helps to prevent using other opioids while on it (especially higher doses).

Methadone users can go out and shoot up on top of the methadone and while they might have some of the effects diminished through high-dose methadone increasing their tolerance, they can still feel the effects and they can still overdose quite easily.

Naltrexone users (whether via oral or implant) basically have their opioid receptors completely locked down so they can try to shoot up all they want and feel nothing but for so many, they are left with that lasting, nagging craving as well as the side effects of having their natural endorphins blocked as well.

Buprenorphine is intended to strike a balance and deal with both the craving and make it more difficult for users to get high via the blockade. The reported 32mg ceiling they found was the dose where there ceased to be any additional gains in the strength or duration of that blockade (again, according to the R-B representative).

Thank you for this awesome post from the other perspective. Shows good reason why high suboxone doses could be a good thing for some people.

Also like to thank BlueHues and Scagnattie too, I will keep looking back to this thread. I took 12mg today instead of my usual 24mg and it wasn't so bad at all. I do get more a substantial feeling off the 24mg though, which lasted longer for me. I did a 2mg dose too today and I did notice it was pretty euphoric, but not very long lasting. I'm going to keep playing around!
 
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So can a small amount of fluoxetine be used to potentiate suboxone?

I doubt it. Also, I don't see much of a point in trying to potentiate suboxone since it has a ceiling dose and most people want less instead of more with it.

This coming Monday I'm going to try and use sub to stop oxy. I have 9 (8mg) Strips) I can get more. I'm going to try 2-4 mg first and wait like an hour to see if that's all I need. If all I need is 4 mg then the next day I will take a little less and so on and so forth till my 9 strips are gone or until I'm taking next to nothing.

So I understand sub allows your body to forgot about oxy. If you don't get addicted to sub and do this fast enough its possible to experience very mild to no discomfort when stopping the sub? Is that correct? It seems too good to be true.

But anyhow I'm sure the sub will make stopping way easier than no sub?? Is that correct?

The most painless sub detoxes I have done have been when I used 2 strips over 5 days. I think I did 6-4-3-2-1 and was fine.
 
[QUOTE=runescape

I do get more a substantial feeling off the 24mg though, which lasted longer for me. I did a 2mg dose too today and I did notice it was pretty euphoric, but not very long lasting. I'm going to keep playing around!

Okay, I lied...I posted again, couldnt help myself...^ You've gotta be kidding, right ? ^
 
if your doc told you you're gonna take subs for the rest of your life he's a scammer. subs are designed as tapers. a doc who scribes subs as maintenance is scamming you. find a reputable doctor and lose the scammer.
 
if your doc told you you're gonna take subs for the rest of your life he's a scammer. subs are designed as tapers. a doc who scribes subs as maintenance is scamming you. find a reputable doctor and lose the scammer.

This may be a possibility, but he is a highly reputable doctor in my area and is very trusted by many people I know. I am not on suboxone for tapers, I am on it for off-label depression reasons. I didn't even know he prescribed suboxone the first time I saw him. I went to him to try and get help for my social anxiety and depression. I wanted to try and get a low dose of klonopin. I told him my past heroin use (I've been clean 2 months) and he prescribed me suboxone instead to keep my endorphins going to help my mood. And it is a great anti-depressant too in my opinion, I can give you many sources from other people who say the same thing. I've tried many SSRIs, and they don't do it for me. Google "suboxone for depression" and you'll find a whole bunch of testimonials from people having a great experience with suboxone, making people like us feel more "normal". Plus it beats relapsing on dope, I was going to until I started this.

I don't think my doctor makes any money by prescribing me subs, I have insurance, and I don't think he is a spokesperson for Rickett Benckiser

"addiction is like diabetes in the in the sense that it is considered a chronic re-occurring disorder, and some people need to be medicated for the long term just like diabetes."

Check this out: http://www.addictionsurvivors.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12124
 
I doubt it. Also, I don't see much of a point in trying to potentiate suboxone since it has a ceiling dose and most people want less instead of more with it.

Agreed. One drug I've heard very positive things about when taken with buprenorphine is tramadol - many think of it as an (atypical) opioid but it's affinity for the mu receptors pales in comparison to even what are thought of as weaker opioids. Most of the analgesic effects come from the way the mu agonism interacts with the serotonergic and noradrenergic activity. When taken with buprenorphine, the miniscule mu agonist effects will of course be blocked, but the other mechanisms of action will serve to enhance buprenorphine's analgesic properties as well as add to the associated mood altering/antidepressant effects.

Given the limitations and ceiling effect of tramadol and that most of it's recreational properties are blocked by buprenorphine, I would love to see it utilized far more in treatment. I think it could substantially mitigate PAWS, reduce relapse and help people over the initial hump while trying to adjust to an existence without their opioid of choice and its associated lifestyle. Too many in the field just cram SSRI's or atypicals down patients' throats (worst of all when they are too early into recovery to even be able to differentiate withdrawals and PAWS from psychiatric diagnoses) and tramadol, unlike the vogue psychotropics of our day, has an immediate beneficial effect on affect unlike most that require weeks of daily administration to even see if they work and are as likely to destroy your sex drive (SSRI's) or turn you into a numb zombie (atypical antipsychotics) as they are benefit you.
 
if your doc told you you're gonna take subs for the rest of your life he's a scammer. subs are designed as tapers. a doc who scribes subs as maintenance is scamming you. find a reputable doctor and lose the scammer.

This is flat out incorrect. Buprenorphine is intended for, formally indicated for and regularly utilized for both detoxification and Opioid Replacement Therapy (more commonly termed 'maintenance').

The ideal goal for any treatment of addiction is total abstinence and freedom from chemical dependency but for a large cross-section of the opioid-addicted population, the craving is too intense and persists too long to give some a fighting chance at recovering. Medications such as methadone and buprenorphine are implemented to spare the individual the torture of persistent craving and the inescapable pattern of continually returning to their drug of choice and all of the havoc their use wreaks on their lives.

Maintenance shouldn't be the first line of treatment. I've read people on her getting prescribed buprenorphine for a 40mg/day hydrocodone habit and that is practically criminal but if someone tries to quit on their own and can't, tries to medically detox and keeps going back, etc. then maintenance should be considered.

The major problem is that most in our contemporary societies always want shortcuts (addicts especially) so people pursue buprenorphine maintenance as their ONLY step and don't make all of the other necessary changes to recover or make their recovery sustainable.

Buprenorphine can allow people to transition to a productive life far from their days of spending all of their time trying to get funds to use, chasing down the substance, using it and ruining everything in their lives. It frees them from the torture of withdrawal and post-acute withdrawal symptoms so they have a chance to make the necessary changes. It's not enough alone, but it's a tool that can be used to keep the agony at bay enough so they can make real and lasting changes.
 
I don't have a hard time coming off this; but the last bit is always the hardest.

Most minor withdrawal symptoms I've felt in a while.
 

I'd like to know the same thing. My doctor wrote me a prescription for 12mg Suboxone but wrong "ask about Zubsolv 8.5mg" as a note to the pharmacist. My doctor said that 8.5mg of zubsolv is equal to 12mg suboxone because the buprenorphine in zubsolv absorbs better than suboxone. She said it tastes is better too (mint), but I like how I don't like the taste of suboxone because now when I think of opiates or opioids, I think of the awful fake orange taste of suboxone.

I'm also nervous about withdrawal from the lower bupe dose in zubsolv, even though they say it's equal to the higher bupe dose in suboxone. If anyone has taken the new zubsolv please post about it.
 
I asked this in a different thread but since this is the bupe mega thread, I would like some more opinions. I used H 2-3 bags a day for 2 months, got a hold of one 8mg Strip waited 24 hours and used it for 5 days like this Day 1 (2mg) Day 2 (2mg) Day 3 (2mg) Day 4 (1mg) Day 5 (1mg). Unfortuently I did one pack of H that night, felt it but a little less than usual, but the next morning and the rest of that day I felt great, the withdrawals were gone. I thought I was done with everything thus it was 5 days after using the H so it was out of my system, then using the one extra bag wasn't enough to bring withdrawal back, or at least that was my mindset. Well 39 Hours later as in right now after my last bupe dose of 1mg I am back in withdrawal but much more mild than the 24 hours I had to wait to take the bupe. What should I expect now? And would I be able to use benzos (Xanax or Valium) for about 5 days to get through this without risking going into withdrawal from the benzo's?
 
So what I gathering is that the few subs I have will make the wd's much easier or non existent?
 
Just a little not about the doctor thing. Interestingly enough I have a surgeon in my IOP group and his wife is an MD, and he was saying that they barely learned anything about addiction in medical school. Now he's been practicing for 20 years so I'm sure that things have changed a little, but then again most Sub doctors are probably his age and older so they also went to school around the same time as him. He said they learned both about the disease aspect, and also the other side about just will power. He was joking around saying how they spend 16 weeks on statistics yet not even 16 hours on addiction. Then take into consideration the small amount of hours that doctors need to study addiction to be certified to be prescribed suboxone, and it's clear that it isn't really enough.

This isn't to discredit doctors or to tell anybody not to listen to them, it's just to say that you need to do your own research on these things rather than just blindly following your doctors orders. I was in the same boat as bluehues when first getting scripted suboxone in 2007 because I too was told that it didn't have any withdrawals so quickly went up to 32mg/day for "cravings" when I had a month clean before starting subs, and at the end I had the worst withdrawals and it ruined my tolerance (not that I should have been concerned with the tolerance part).

So what I gathering is that the few subs I have will make the wd's much easier or non existent?

Easier, not non-existent. Since it has such a long half-life when you just use it for a few days it has just enough time to build up a bit while the other opiates leave your system, then it leaves your system slow enough to make the withdrawals minimal. Of course the extent of the withdrawals after this will depend on your habit (both size and duration) so it differs for everybody.
 
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