Help! Should my 17 year old daughter trip?

[fugme]

Nobody here mentioned how negatively the drugs can affect an undeveloped brain/body beyond just a bad trip. I would wait at least until she's 20 or so and even then your brain is still developing. While taking psychedelics in controled evironment might be fine, it could open her up to the world of drugs, especially if she has several other psychological issues. Either way if you plan on doing it resort only to mildest / most positive psychedelics (2C-B comes to mind) and only after you have tried smaller doses first and build up to a trip. I'd say even with increasing the dosage i'd wait at least a month+ and even then there can be lasting/damaging effects if done too often.

 

[izo]

17 is an age at which you can start tripping, id say, perhaps a little too young but i heard of people starting tripping on shrooms when they were 11. plus i like woman who trip, its rare...

 

[thegreenhand]

i started tripping at age 17 and it hasn't done me any long term good in solving my psychiatric problems

admittedly, i did not have a parent to guide me through it all though. just erowid and bluelight.

initially, psychedelics did wonders for my depression. but i found the afterglow, during which i was not depressed, kept shortening. my first trip it lasted a few months. then down to a few weeks and then down to a few days.

i was tripping at least once a month (on rare occasions every 2 weeks) at my peak. this wasn't sustainable for my sanity and i haven't done psychedelics in over a year.

i'm sure i'll try them again at some point but using them to treat depression was not a successful endeavor for me long term.

just my experience. your daughter's might be different.

i just wanna say one last thing about this comment:

But as you know, she’s desensitized to her emotions through the pharmaceuticals, those issues are all still there, plus, aside from not being a danger to herself, and not being so gloomy all day, every day, there isn’t really much improvement in advancing with life itself.

as shitty as this sounds, that desensitization might be the only thing keeping her alive. i agree that eventually she'll need to work through those things but in the meantime don't discredit that desensitization entirely. sometimes one's emotions are simply too much to bear. if a drug can make those emotions bearable and she lives to see another day because of it, to me that's a net positive.

i think as psychedelic lovers we tend to discredit the efficacy of other substances. but rationally, this doesn't make sense. LSD might work for you, but for your daughter it might not. just something to keep in mind.

 

[arrall]

Nobody here mentioned how negatively the drugs can affect an undeveloped brain/body beyond just a bad trip. I would wait at least until she's 20 or so and even then your brain is still developing. While taking psychedelics in controled evironment might be fine, it could open her up to the world of drugs, especially if she has several other psychological issues. Either way if you plan on doing it resort only to mildest / most positive psychedelics (2C-B comes to mind) and only after you have tried smaller doses first and build up to a trip. I'd say even with increasing the dosage i'd wait at least a month+ and even then there can be lasting/damaging effects if done too often.

The “brain developing until 20” thing is a myth. The brain actually finishes most development by the end of puberty (16-17). The brain never stops truly developing, but 20 and the usually cited 25 are arbitrary numbers.

If OP’s daughter is interested in tripping and willing to taper off her meds, I see no issue. The focus is if she is ready to trip and understand the risks involved.

2C-B could be a better starter psychedelic, but due to lack of depth + nausea with 2C-B I actually think that 4-HO-MET is the best starter psychedelic. It is a deep but very manageable experience that doesn’t last too long (4-5 hours) with oral RoA. LSD lasts far too long in my opinion.

@FredF Have you considered a psilocin analogue like 4-HO-MET instead of LSD?

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

I disagree.
We, as psychedelic enthusiasts, tend to overestimate how useful they actually are for the average man and we also tend to romanticize tripping with certain others. Given the seemingly pretty severe mental problems there's quite the large chance of freaking the fuck out. 17 year old girl and a father, that's probably a pretty complex relationship too, it will never go as planned.

I thought it was a fantastic idea to trip with my brother, who is a very responsible, level headed and smart guy, it did not go at all how I envisioned it, it wasn't bad but definitely didn't help our relationship all that much. We get along great, that's not the issue, he just didn't respond all that well to it.

So few potential upsides, too much potential downsides.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hi folks. Looking for some opinions here.

A little context-
I am a full time single dad, basically raised my daughter alone from the get-go, but have fully raised her alone from about the age of 8-9.

So, her mom not being stable enough for my daughter to even want to be around her and ask to be in my sole custody on her own and not having her mom around, combined with whatever bullshit negative influence I’ve had on her (plenty, believe me) combined with the regular stresses of being a teenager in 2022 has taken its toll.

Over the past 3 years, she’s been hospitalized for self harm, or worse. She don’t want to live alot of the time. School hasn’t happened in about 3 years either.

She’s on Prozac and Quetiapine, and admittedly, things are not as dire today as they were a year ago. But as you know, she’s desensitized to her emotions through the pharmaceuticals, those issues are all still there, plus, aside from not being a danger to herself, and not being so gloomy all day, every day, there isn’t really much improvement in advancing with life itself. School etc. Shes very far behind, she has no self confidence or belief in the incredible gifts she does indeed possess.

I mean, the first time I experienced psychedelics all those years ago, I said - everyone has to feel this, at least once in their lives.

My kid is 17 now, and I look at and use the psychs much differently now than I did when I myself was a kid.

Im contemplating macro dosing her. I know micro dosing is an approach…

Right now, sober, I’m critical of myself and there’s a feeling of what kind of father contemplates dosing his kid. But when I’m tripping, I’m so convinced that if the trip goes right, she could so benefit from a guided trip. I want to wake her up when I’m tripping. Show her without any shame everything that her dad is, and isn’t. Articulate to her how special she is. And I think she’d start buying in. I think about her a lot when I trip. Well, I always do, but you know what I mean.

Any thoughts or if anyone has experience with this would share it with me, it would be greatly appreciated.

Am a bad dad? Just a harmless hippy?

Oh God...

Okay look. First of all, you are not a bad dad. And i am not a dad at all. However, i like kids a lot.

First, obviously i only saw the thread title. "Should my 17 year old daughter trip?" And this is exactly the kind of stuff that makes my instincts guide my behavior. Which means i want to protect all children, worldwide. And as i know, that human brain develops all the way up to until about age 25 well... obviously, no! She should not trip. She should focus on school or something.

Then i actually read what you wrote and now i am not sure anymore. At all. I did not read any of the replies, in order for my own reply to remain uninfluenced.

I know how psychedelics can help, regarding mental health problems. I am insane myself. I have used psychedelics when i was much younger. They helped.

Literally shaking my head here. Because i just don't know. Here is what i am going to do. I am going to leave this decision entirely up to you. Because quite frankly, it is entirely up to you, no matter what. Use your instincts as a father. You do not need the instincts and advice of some random loser online, like i am. With that being said, i wish all the best to you and your daughter. I hope she gets better, tripping or no tripping. I know how it feels like to suffer from mental health problems. And i do not want that to anyone. Not to my worst enemy, not to an innocent child. Not to anyone.

This post probably did not help at all. But i want to post it anyway. Good luck, Sir. I am confident that you can come up with the right conclusion, about what to do, and then you act based on your conclusion.

 

[arrall]

And as i know, that human brain develops all the way up to until about age 25 well

Ghost, your reply was good with the exception of this. The 25 thing is unfortunately a very well-propagated myth spread by those hoping to infantilize 18-25 year olds in order to keep young adults in college longer. There is zero solid scientific evidence to back it up.
EDIT 06/2022: The 25 number is indeed very arbitrary, but I was far too black-and-white with this stance.

 

[arrall]

I disagree.
We, as psychedelic enthusiasts, tend to overestimate how useful they actually are for the average man and we also tend to romanticize tripping with certain others. Given the seemingly pretty severe mental problems there's quite the large chance of freaking the fuck out. 17 year old girl and a father, that's probably a pretty complex relationship too, it will never go as planned.

I thought it was a fantastic idea to trip with my brother, who is a very responsible, level headed and smart guy, it did not go at all how I envisioned it, it wasn't bad but definitely didn't help our relationship all that much. We get along great, that's not the issue, he just didn't respond all that well to it.

So few potential upsides, too much potential downsides.

While I never tripped with a relative, I'm 18 and have been tripping since I was 15 and have seen great benefit outside of my first & third trips (which were megadose psilocybin with awful mindset + setting, and they went disastrous).

@FredF You should look into guides on tripsitting such as this one. There are also some great books out there on Psychedelic Psychotherapy. Using psychedelics in my late teenage years has helped me tremendously with a mood disorder and severe trauma, and probably saved my life. I recommend not starting with LSD due to the duration, starting with a low dose, and having tripkillers on hand. 12-15mg of 4-HO-MET would be great for a first time. As long as your daughter is interested, I would recommend this. Many experts in the field actually advocate for a legalized system in which teenagers who are mature enough to understand the gravity of taking a psychedelic are able to trip under the supervision of a trained and licensed professional with or without their parents. Obviously there is most likely no trained professional available in this case as there would be ideally, but the point is that teenagers tripping is not inherently forbidden.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Ghost, your reply was good with the exception of this. The 25 thing is unfortunately a very well-propagated myth spread by those hoping to infantilize 18-25 year olds in order to keep young adults in college longer. There is zero solid scientific evidence to back it up.

Okay, i see. I believe you.

I stand corrected.

 

[thegreenhand]

@arrall my understanding is that it's a pretty solid consensus in the neuroscience community that 25 is when the brain is mostly done developing. here is a pretty comprehensive literature review

some regions of the brain mature faster than others and generally the prefrontal cortex is the last region to mature. this is what we mean when we say that brain develops until age 25. that's important to keep in mind when it comes to decision making, like choosing to take psychedelics. the PFC is involved with "rational decision making". the limbic system which is more "base desires" matures before the PFC and that means an individual who is 20 may not be able to regulate their emotions and urges as strongly as say 35 year old.

now you're correct that some people have hijacked this to promote the idea that anyone under age 25 is not capable of independence/autonomy. but to say "There is zero solid scientific evidence to back it up" is just not true

and that doesn't mean you're screwed after 25. synaptic plasticity occurs at all ages. but a lot of important stuff needs to happen from ages 0-25

 

[simstim]

I think this could work.

I think a lower to medium dose of DPT would be an excellent way for a person to lose their psychedelic virginity.

Mine was LSD at sixteen with no guide.

The short duration of DPT (2 hours) might be good for newbies. Also, lighter doses of dpt are very gentle and have a dreamy quality to them.

There is a good reason for the temple of inner light using DPT.

I've never had dpt orally so I'm not even sure what that feels like. I dunno if you would want to introduce your kid to snorting or IM'ing psychedelics.

 

[Endopharm]

Never do this. Get her into therapy.

Her brain is still developing, and if shes having issues now on meds, look at getting her off those.

Its horrible that drs prescribed these in the first place

 

[arrall]

@arrall my understanding is that it's a pretty solid consensus in the neuroscience community that 25 is when the brain is mostly done developing. here is a pretty comprehensive literature review

some regions of the brain mature faster than others and generally the prefrontal cortex is the last region to mature. this is what we mean when we say that brain develops until age 25. that's important to keep in mind when it comes to decision making, like choosing to take psychedelics. the PFC is involved with "rational decision making". the limbic system which is more "base desires" matures before the PFC and that means an individual who is 20 may not be able to regulate their emotions and urges as strongly as say 35 year old.

now you're correct that some people have hijacked this to promote the idea that anyone under age 25 is not capable of independence/autonomy. but to say "There is zero solid scientific evidence to back it up" is just not true

and that doesn't mean you're screwed after 25. synaptic plasticity occurs at all ages. but a lot of important stuff needs to happen from ages 0-25

That article's first citation for the brain developing until 25 links to an HIV article that does not mention "neurological development" or the number "25." As for the PFC, the other citation also has no mention of the age 25 and refers to a study indicating that those up to 29 had impaired decision making.

 

[thegreenhand]

i don’t see that HIV paper listed in the references section? which number is it?

as for the second paper you mentioned, i mean yeah you kinda made my point. i never said 25 was a strict limit or anything. there is always variation among individuals.

this paper, Structural magnetic resonance imaging of the adolescent brain (scihub link here) concludes that structural maturation (not necessarily behavioral maturation) in the dorsolateral PFC occurs into the 20s

tbh it’s just sort of part of the “canon” that brain development occurs until the mid 20s or so. i’ll keep looking for reviews that elucidate this clearly if you’d like though

this is not a peer reviewed paper, more of an educational site. i could find a plethora of these sites but since you have claimed that,

“ The 25 thing is unfortunately a very well-propagated myth spread by those hoping to infantilize 18-25 year olds in order to keep young adults in college longer”

i’m not sure any paper will convince you. since to me it appears you’ve accepted that it’s all a conspiracy to subjugate college students.

 

[AussieJoe]

Maybe im too old to understand I just dont see how any psychedelics can benefit here ....self harm hospitalisation suicidal issues dosent want to live.These issues have underlying problems that have caused the condition .Psychedelics arent going to magically make them go away...not an ideal mindset for consuming psychedelics .Now i could be wrong there might be some benefit in small doses....who knows Im no dr or psychotherapist....how does one decide which psychedelic compound would suit the situation ?Its a bit russian roulette..
spin the chamber see what happens .The unkown quantity ...how will this person react....ppl who have no underlying issues have experienced negative experiences from psychedelics.Just dosent feel right ..but its only my opinion take what you want from it
@Fred Whatever decision you both choose all the best for the future ....it sux watching your children suffering

 

[arrall]

i’m not sure any paper will convince you. since to me it appears you’ve accepted that it’s all a conspiracy to subjugate college students.

Nah, just read something very convincing on the subject a few days ago. My mind is pretty open here, and the study you linked makes sense.

However, white matter (for example) in the frontal lobe increases until age 44. Is there truly significantly more development occuring from age 18 to 25 than age 25 to 35? The brain is never truly "finished developing." Why draw the line at 25 and not 30 or 44?

As for psychedelics, another argument that can be made is that the neuroplasticity that teenagers have can also have benefits in repairing any negative neurological impact from a bad trip. So the brain not being finished developing could be looked at as a positive, since any undesirable changes would poissibly be more easily repaired.

 

[thegreenhand]

Nah, just read something very convincing on the subject a few days ago. My mind is pretty open here, and the study you linked makes sense.

However, white matter (for example) in the frontal lobe increases until age 44. Is there truly significantly more development occuring from age 18 to 25 than age 25 to 35? The brain is never truly "finished developing." Why draw the line at 25 and not 30 or 44?

As for psychedelics, another argument that can be made is that the neuroplasticity that teenagers have can also have benefits in repairing any negative neurological impact from a bad trip. So the brain not being finished developing could be looked at as a positive, since any undesirable changes would poissibly be more easily repaired.

that reddit post was an interesting read.

it’s generally accepted that younger folks have more plasticity going on so i think it’s safe to say that the degree of plasticity in 18-25 yr olds is greater than that of 25-35. in the later years of adolescence, it’s more synaptic pruning than it is growth though iirc. but you’re right, the 25 number is pretty arbitrary it seems. and despite its prevalence it’s hard to pinpoint where this number came from. it often appears in textbooks and similar resources but finding this clearly stated in peer reviewed literature is difficult.

i just took issue with your claim that there was no evidence for it whatsoever. i think there’s a rather large body of evidence that plasticity occurs through the 20s, even if the number 25 isn’t clearly stated. and while adult neurogenesis certainly occurs, it’s at least bit harder to demonstrate in a lab.

and yeah that’s a good point about the bad trips. and tbh i never found the argument of abstaining from drugs while the brain is adolescence a very good one anyways tbh. psychiatric drugs are seemingly prescribed without regard to this fact. why should common recreational drugs (at reasonable doses) be significantly different?

my point wasn’t to say that an “underdeveloped brain” should necessarily avoid psychedelics. i was just trying to say that plasticity is still occurring to higher degree in the 20s than later in life, which i thought you were denying outright. my bad if i misunderstood.

 

[arrall]

i just took issue with your claim that there was no evidence for it whatsoever. i think there’s a rather large body of evidence that plasticity occurs through the 20s, even if the number 25 isn’t clearly stated. and while adult neurogenesis certainly occurs, it’s at least bit harder to demonstrate in a lab.

Yeah, I gotta stop writing these on mobile. I worded that very poorly. What I meant is that the 25 number does not seem to have any solid evidence.

and yeah that’s a good point about the bad trips. and tbh i never found the argument of abstaining from drugs while the brain is adolescence a very good one anyways tbh. psychiatric drugs are seemingly prescribed without regard to this fact. why should common recreational drugs (at reasonable doses) be significantly different?

my point wasn’t to say that an “underdeveloped brain” should necessarily avoid psychedelics. i was just trying to say that plasticity is still occurring to higher degree in the 20s than later in life, which i thought you were denying outright. my bad if i misunderstood.

I think we are in agreement here and I just worded things very poorly.

To provide some anecdotal evidence for what you said: I've taken various psychedelics, dissociatives, an amphetamine script, cannabis, alcohol, and antidepressants quite frequently from ages 15-18 and I honestly feel like for the most part (excluding cannabis which had a mild short-term negative effect, alcohol which had little effect, and DXM because I mixed it with Wellbutrin and it may have permanently worsened my HPPD) they have benefited my cognition and mental health. The amphetamine + Wellbutrin certainly seemed to have permanently improved my ADHD somewhat, while the dissos + psychedelics + MDMA have improved my depression and especially my PTSD.

While amphetamine can be pretty bad for physical growth (though heavy caffeine use, undereating, and insomnia already stunted mine plenty by the time I got a Vyvanse prescription) in children and adolescents, it can actually repair ADHD in many cases over several years which is probably part of the reason that it is prescribed so young.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

no i wouldn't suggest or assist my 17 yr old daughter in taking LSD no matter what the reasoning is

that's something she needs to do on her own or with her friends, not her 40 yr old dad

and that's coming from one single full-time dad to another who also has a daughter

now you're not a bad dad for coming up with that idea, because you're at least trying to come up with something that might work

but it's just not a good idea

 

[thegreenhand]

Yeah, I gotta stop writing these on mobile. I worded that very poorly. What I meant is that the 25 number does not seem to have any solid evidence.


I think we are in agreement here and I just worded things very poorly.

To provide some anecdotal evidence for what you said: I've taken various psychedelics, dissociatives, an amphetamine script, cannabis, alcohol, and antidepressants quite frequently from ages 15-18 and I honestly feel like for the most part (excluding cannabis which had a mild short-term negative effect, alcohol which had little effect, and DXM because I mixed it with Wellbutrin and it may have permanently worsened my HPPD) they have benefited my cognition and mental health. The amphetamine + Wellbutrin certainly seemed to have permanently improved my ADHD somewhat, while the dissos + psychedelics + MDMA have improved my depression and especially my PTSD.

While amphetamine can be pretty bad for physical growth (though heavy caffeine use, undereating, and insomnia already stunted mine plenty by the time I got a Vyvanse prescription) in children and adolescents, it can actually repair ADHD in many cases over several years which is probably part of the reason that it is prescribed so young.

My drug resume is pretty similar minus the dissos (other than DXM a couple times). I’m glad you’ve found substances that work for you

And yeah I think your analysis is pretty spot on. I think I’m better off now than I was before doing drugs at least. Psychedelics helped me be a lot more comfortable with more myself. I’m not sure they have helped my depression much in the long term though, unfortunately.

MDMA and amphetamine helped me with expressing my feelings. I’ve always bottled things up but those two drugs have shown me how much better life is when one shares their troubles with friends.

Weed… well weed’s a complicated story lol. It definitely helps me relax, if only for the fact that I’m too stupid to focus on ‘productive’ things and I’m forced to chill out. I have abused weed heavily in the past though so my relationship with it is tricky

I’m sure I’d look at these drugs differently if I didn’t start using them until later in life. I even look at them differently now than I did a year ago.

I sometimes think that doing drugs forced me to grow up too fast. Having to confront mortality/god/all of my self hatred so young probably didn’t do me any favors.

I often times feel isolated from my peers. I struggle to relate to their experiences. My struggles have felt completely different than theirs (not that mine were more difficult, just different).

Maybe it would be easier if I didn’t do such powerful drugs at a young age. Maybe not idk. I’m still eternally grateful for everything I’ve learned from drugs.