Schizophrenics taking LSD or PCP?

[bees_knees]

Yeah derealization, depersonalisation and inability to differentiate what you imagine or think about from what is really happening (you have a thought that maybe the government is run by aliens and all of a sudden it just seems to be the case, there's no differentiating that thought from the other reality-testing thought 'the government is just people', they are equal), are all hallmarks of what we're calling schizophrenia for now. I think of it as a kind of descent into yourself, where you kind of dissolve into your mind, and the other hallmark fragmentation of the mental processes becomes quite apparent. You can't be sure where you are in all this, where your thoughts are, what is 'imagining' what is 'reasoning' what is 'deciding'. It's all a kind of no one's home but still something is happening. You mildly drift in some timeless absenteeism and emotionlessly go about some kind of 'day' (eat, games, sleep, music, sleep, murmur to family something for a while that seems like it's supposed to be conversation, sleep).

The cannabis was basically an episode from maybe 10 to 20 seconds after I exhaled the smoke from the bong. It persisted for an hour, then residually for 2 hours, then there was just flat affect, depersonalisation, derealisation, a kind of emotionless meaningless dream. Those negative symptoms persisted but the positive symptoms generally faded away. This may have only been because I was socially isolated, as when I started university not knowing I was schizophrenic there was INTENSE anxiety in public places, which later I realised was INTENSE paranoia. You don't even notice the change...

 

[bees_knees]

but one puff of the green and I am off to the goose chases.

Yep...!

 

[crOOk]

Personally I find the mushroom experience has nothing at all to do with the experience of schizophrenia.

You might not think so and for all I know the 5HT2Ar might not play any role in schizophrenia, but it's a fact that countless first schizophrenic episodes have been triggered by psychedelic experiences. I personally wouldn't blame any direct pharmacological effects for this, but the enormous stress that a psychedelic experience can put onto a person's mind.

Cannabis doesn't primarily act on dopamine, but on cannabinoid receptors (surprise surprise) btw.

Btw in case it is of any interest, when I was on the peak of my mania, the changes in visuals and auditory perception very closely resembled a low dose of mushrooms or other psychedelics. I've had between 100 and 200 psychedelic experiences, so the realm is quite familiar to me.
I have also experienced one episode during a mushroom trip that was characterized by paranoid delusions (I was the messiah, it was the last day of humanity, I had to inform everyone, people in white coats were chasing after me, full blown auditory hallucinations etc.).

 

[teological]

Wow, how on earth do you guys recover from such severe hallucinations? I mean is it only the drug's effects?

My psychotic symptoms were deemed severe, but only consisted of voices and a delusion of people talking about me. This occurred while I was sober and it took a good part of 6 months of complete sobriety (bar opiates) and therapy. I never had de-realization or guys in lab coats chasing me though...how do you guys pull through?

 

[crOOk]

My psychotic symptoms were deemed severe, but only consisted of voices and a delusion of people talking about me. This occurred while I was sober and it took a good part of 6 months of complete sobriety (bar opiates) and therapy. I never had de-realization or guys in lab coats chasing me though...how do you guys pull through?

Well the lab coat thing happened on mushrooms. The delusions subsided on the comedown. If I was suffering such intense delusions I would be completely dysfunctional. But as it is it doesn't qualify for a psychotic episode and I have neither schizophrenia, delusions or hallucinations. I don't think it has any pathological value outside the context of the drug experience.

My best buddy's first episode, who was pretty well functioning at 21 years resulted in him running around naked onto some highway in Australia trying to stop the cars. He was locked up, medicated, picked up by his parents from Germany, ditched his meds... Again, got naked at a local trainstation in the morning, beat up people going to work, proceeded to take a shit on the road (4 lanes, big bridge, lots of traffic). Then "stole from" a gas station (his words, I'd say robbed would come closer since he was naked). This time he managed to quit taking his meds in the hospital, tried jumping of the roof.

How does this guy manage to live? Well, the judge put him on risperdal depot shots and he has been fine ever since. Sometimes these things resolve on their own after one episode. Either way it classicaly comes in episodes which can be managed relatively well with neuroleptics. The negative symptoms usually become worse after every episode and this is a large cause for disability. Some manage better, some worse.

 

[LiquidNebula]

I suppose it differs from person to person,but,in my opinion someone who suffer from a psychotic disorder should stay away from drugs that act on perception and thought processes.Also,the psychedelic experience can be extremely stressful and,probably,that would be more than enough to trigger a psychotic episode in an already susceptible individual.

 

[Foreigner]

Wow, how on earth do you guys recover from such severe hallucinations? I mean is it only the drug's effects?

I didn't have voices but I felt extremely ungrounded and unable to focus on day to day tasks. I didn't know who I was anymore and life did not make one bit of sense. I would go for walks in the evening to try and clear my head, and the city seemed totally unreal to me... like I was living in some kind of lego land. I also had to go to school at the time and write exams, so I was sitting in class looking at pages of info and the words looked like foreign languages until I focused hard and saw English again. It was scary.

I attribute it all to taking way too much acid. A good friend of mine who is well versed in psychedelics came over to my home when I told her I was on the verge of killing myself. I told her the full story and she gave me a detailed list of things to do to get through it, and to take care of myself. I put all my faith into that list because I had no other anchor in reality, and after about a month I came back down to earth. I had to avoid all mind altering for 6+ months until such point that I could tangibly discern concrete reality again.

Nutrition and regular exercise were key. So was socialization. I had to avoid the temptation to sit at home alone because at that time it was dangerous. The acid had agonized my brain to such a degree that everything was novel, and nothing felt familiar anymore... so I had to be very careful what I filled all that new space with. I chose to spend time in nature, hang out with close friends who would understand, eat well, and do well in school. Basic mundane things really helped me feel real again.

Philosophically and spiritually, I will never be the same. This world still seems like the mayan illusion to me, all the time... but it's not a bad thing. I used to live in a buddhist monastery and they taught us the same kind of stuff. But to be able to recognize it now as an embodied experience is really something else.

 

[Lightning-Nl]

I have been "Officially Diagnosed" by multiple psychiatrists in the past 3-4 years as having Bi-Polar Disorder as well as Schizophrenia.

I hate to say this, especially since I've been accused of making up things before - but I'm not sure if I believe this. I believe the Bipolar Disorder part, but not the Schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is a very serious mental problem. You don't just recover from Schizophrenia. Also, one of the most prominent symptoms of Schizophrenia (and this is usually what distinguishes Schizophrenia from most other psychotic symptoms) is the very severe thought disorder. People with Schizophrenia literally can't talk - at least not to any legibility.

 

[Mr. Meowfish]

^^^
I'm strictly going off of a diagnosis given to me by 2-3 different Psychiatrists/Doctors that I've seen during my mid to late 20's. I also took and gave Lithium a go for a while, about 4-5months if I remember correctly. My Doctor at the time felt that was more important than trying to get my Bi-Polar disorder under control, as I told her that I was unwilling to start a whole range of drugs that were new to me all at once. I told her I would try them one at a time, for a reasonable period, and see how I feel internally and how my life was going comparatively.

To be honest, I feel like when I was like 10-11 until around 27-28, I was suffering more from the Schizophrenia......hearing voices constantly, extreme paranoia, always withdrawn from other people, thinking everyone was out to get me and talking shit about me every time I turned my back.......but in the past few years, like 2-3 when I've been HEAVILY using dissociatives, I'm more Bi-Polar than anything else these days. I do still have some crazy thoughts or ideas that I become convinced of - but I don't hear voices as much, or at least not ones that frighten me and that make me scared I'm going to do something REALLY fucked up. I used to hear voices when I was a Teenager telling me to kill my parents, to burn down my church, to execute my father.............there was a time that I was genuinely SCARED to jerk-off because I thought my parents had installed tiny camera's everywhere in our house, especially in my room, because they were trying to catch me doing something that I was too smart to do/say/or act on in front of them. Thoughts like this were a daily occurrence for me throughout my teenage years and early 20's when I look back on my thought process for that time nowadays. I don't know what else to call those kinds of thoughts other than Schizophrenic, I was a very nice well balanced kid to the world for the most part - just an extreme loner who had no desire to be around anyone. Those types of thoughts ruled my consciousness for a large chunk of my life prior to starting getting high at 19. Cannabis at first did get rid of some of the symptoms and helped me relax my mind, but at the same time, it would worsen other parts of my thought process. Maybe I'm not Schizophrenic............who the fuck really knows? It's not like they can prove a diagnosis via a blood test or something like that like other conditions. I don't know why I was never diagnosed with Schizoaffective disorder, or maybe I was. To be honest, I can't really remember a good bit of my life from 23-27 when I was deep in a Heroin/Benzo addiction. It takes something reminding me of that time to access memories for the most part. I have a VERY hard time recalling anything other than going to cop and get my Tar, I don't even know how the fuck I payed for my habit sometimes. Scary.

Around 21 - I started using Benzo's and Opiates, as well as drinking a bit more for the first time in my life. I seriously never really had gotten drunk except maybe once or twice prior to turning 21. Once I started using all of these downers - which looking back on things now, I think I was drawn to all of the downers not only to deal with the stress of my Ex-GF/Wife at the time, but also to even me out from my heavy Cannabis habit. I used to smoke an Ounce a week of some heady personally grown nuggets for a good 1-2 years, during this time was when I started to experiment with Downers, but I also started to have a growing interest in Psychedelics. I tried LSD multiple times during this period, had a handful of Mushroom adventures, a couple-few months of steady daily DXM use. I always took everything to the extreme. Sometimes on the weekends - I would easily kill 30-40mgs of Xanex from Friday to Sunday night and then try and wake up Monday to go to work.

How crazy I am isn't some kind of contest to me. I'm only here to try and openly and honestly talk about the things I've experienced via my mental disorders, and giving whatever insight I can for people into how these different varieties of drugs effect my train of thought. I wouldn't really even call them insights - it's just what happened and I'm describing it. If I had the money, I would be seeing a Psychiatrist or Psychologist a couple of times a month just to have a chat with someone about these types of things in person, and to be able to have easier access to a variety of medications that I've never tried or don't know about that may help me. Sometimes I do genuinely believe that if I found a drug that did NOT get me high at all, but it made life liveable and enjoyable, I had no urges to harm my fellow humans, and I was able to sleep and eat like I need to - I would forsake all other drugs for that. Until I find that "Wonderdrug" - I'm going to stick with my MXE magical adventure times.

 

[Roger&Me]

lel, you would appear less manic if you split that into paragraphs imho

 

[crOOk]

Also, one of the most prominent symptoms of Schizophrenia (and this is usually what distinguishes Schizophrenia from most other psychotic symptoms) is the very severe thought disorder. People with Schizophrenia literally can't talk - at least not to any legibility.

Schizophrenia can have many faces and outside of an episode even the most severe cases can usually still talk and write coherently. On the peak of my mania I also lost the ability to express myself coherently which was extremely frustrating because my mind was moving at lightning speed. Some of the stuff I wrote during the time doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Sentences are broken off right in the middle, I kept rhyming words instead of connecting words by their meaning, I used lots acronyms that I made up on the spot without ever explaining them, I could not bring sentences to an end or even work out simple sentences which would only contain a few words and would instead lose my change my thought multiple times before finishing a sentence. I once tried to ask a buddy from uni to bring a dvd the next day, but instead wrote over 5 pages of complete gibberish.
This impairment of speech is different from that seen in schitophrenia, but it has similarities, there's actually a great article comparing the two on this level.

@Mr. Meowfish
I've got a bipolar 1 diagnosis myself and while I've always loved all dissociatives, there're only a few things out there that will make me go manic more reliably than regular dissociative use, especially pcp (stimulants and antidepressants are the others). Ofc it makes you feel awesome, but that's not saying it's a good idea to try always feeling awesome when you are bipolar. I'm just afraid the stuff will affectively destabilize you in the long run. The reason why dissociatives are not utilized in treatment of bipolar disorder go past big pharma trying to push their meds. ^^
You could observe this very clearly when MXE was introduced and dozens of bluelighters claiming that would have huge benefits for their mental health (95% of these presumably bipolar lol). I still doubt it is a suitable class of drugs for treatment of bipolar disorder, not in psychotropic dosages anyway.

 

[Mr. Meowfish]

When I'm being honest with myself - the main thing that dissociatives do to help me get away from my disorders, because I tend to be naturally on the more depressive/lethargic end of the manic spectrum, my main benefit from a dose of MXE, PCP, DXM or whatever is that it lifts the depression immediately, makes me realize what a dumb ass baby I was being for just sitting around saying that life is boring and it finally gives me the energy to get out of bed and do something with myself that's positive or at least interesting. I guess when I look at my statements retrospectively, dissociatives just flip my conditions to the opposite end of the spectrum that I'm used to.

As I mentioned in another thread, MXE binges make me very calm and put together, but at the same time extremely manic - I'm just all over the place. I may sit in my chair for 12 hours drawing the same picture over and over and over again until I've got it tweaked exactly how I want it. Or other times I go on benders where all I do is color the FUCK out of everything that I've drawn in the past 3months but never finished. In a way, I suppose it's not REALLY fixing anything about my condition, it's just getting me into a more pleasant phase of my Bi-Polar/Schizophrenic Tendencies - but I still don't really feel like that's a bad thing. My daily Buperenorphine dose really had a tendency to make me depressed when it's the only drug that I'm taking on the daily, as I'm not a big drinker and have recently given up Cannabis for the most part other that the occasional blunt. My MXE/PCP adventures always bring me back to the productive end of the spectrum that I travel. Maybe it isn't perfect, but I fell WAY better than I ever did on Lithium or Depakote, so this will work for now.

cr00k - your description of trying to write while in that deep Schizophrenic state is so bizarre, yet so relative to me at the same time. In the past 1.5-2 years, I've discovered something really crazy via my dissociative use - that lightning quick thought process in your head that you were speaking of - well lately, I've been having that feeling all of the time and the way that I've found that I can exercise that speediness out of my brain, and this will sound ridiculous to most people, I've started Freestyling constantly and writing lyrics to my own version of Hip Hop. I plan on making my super disco'd out beats to go along with it all at some point in the future once I have the proper equipment and a comparable collection of vinyl to go with my insanity. There were a few times where I'd do a large shot of MXE, literally go into a dream state for a minute or 2 after the shot, and when I would come to - I would already be in the middle of a FULL ON freestyle. A couple of times, my ex-GF witnessed this happen to me and I awoke to her having this bizarre look on her face, not a bad one, shocked but not scared. She explained to me precisely what she saw happen, and I was literally freestyling to myself, eyes mostly closed almost looking like I was about to catch a nod, but somehow still fully pronouncing and enunciating the words. As I've loved Hip Hop my whole life, have been a Graffiti writer forever, love drum n' bass, fast electronic music, and everything interesting in between - I've decided to just go with the chaos. I feel like dissociated music could take genres in entirely new directions. Anyways, I'm done bullshitting. I just couldn't believe when I read your above posting about the insanely quick thought process that you can have, but sometimes be unable to express those thoughts as fast orally. I guess I should really count my lucky stars that my brain still allows me to get the speech out. This really is a bizarre phenomena though. Has anyone else ever experienced ANYTHING even closely resembling this? Please share.

 

[crOOk]

cr00k - your description of trying to write while in that deep Schizophrenic state is so bizarre, yet so relative to me at the same time. In the past 1.5-2 years, I've discovered something really crazy via my dissociative use - that lightning quick thought process in your head that you were speaking of - well lately, I've been having that feeling all of the time and the way that I've found that I can exercise that speediness out of my brain, and this will sound ridiculous to most people, I've started Freestyling constantly and writing lyrics to my own version of Hip Hop. I plan on making my super disco'd out beats to go along with it all at some point in the future once I have the proper equipment and a comparable collection of vinyl to go with my insanity. There were a few times where I'd do a large shot of MXE, literally go into a dream state for a minute or 2 after the shot, and when I would come to - I would already be in the middle of a FULL ON freestyle. A couple of times, my ex-GF witnessed this happen to me and I awoke to her having this bizarre look on her face, not a bad one, shocked but not scared. She explained to me precisely what she saw happen, and I was literally freestyling to myself, eyes mostly closed almost looking like I was about to catch a nod, but somehow still fully pronouncing and enunciating the words. As I've loved Hip Hop my whole life, have been a Graffiti writer forever, love drum n' bass, fast electronic music, and everything interesting in between - I've decided to just go with the chaos. I feel like dissociated music could take genres in entirely new directions. Anyways, I'm done bullshitting. I just couldn't believe when I read your above posting about the insanely quick thought process that you can have, but sometimes be unable to express those thoughts as fast orally. I guess I should really count my lucky stars that my brain still allows me to get the speech out. This really is a bizarre phenomena though. Has anyone else ever experienced ANYTHING even closely resembling this? Please share.

Sounds like you are hypomanic to me. That state can be so fucking empowering. I taught myself coding in AHK->C#->C->ASM in only a few months while I was manic. Had almost ten thousand users for the first project (got my ass sued though), the 2nd one was a poker bot which played 30k games for money (came out +-0). Then the neuroleptics and depression came along and I lost all belief in my skills, spent my time sleeping and playing video games. Mania is fucking amazing, but the cost can be extremely high. Both for your health and on a social level. My waking periods lasted between 65 and 70 hours towards the end and my body weight was 55kg at 177cm... Now I have a central retinal vein thrombosis and a right bundle branch block, not sure whether that's due to the lifestyle back then or the medication... Either way, it's very taxing. I could go on about the social consequences which could be considered just as severe, but I'll stop here.

EDIT: I just remembered this when I thought about your freestyling outbursts: One time when I smoked DMT on top of intranasal ketamine I started moving involuntarily. I tried to resist at first, but when I let my body go it started dancing like fucking crazy, doing all kinds of robotic moves. :D Others were witnissing this and commended me for my dancing skills. I figured an ancestral spirit must've taken possession of my body, who I enabled to enter our world by smoking DMT. Wild experience!

 

[bees_knees]

I have no rational explanation for how I have recovered from schizophrenia. Let's just say this is just another age of various myths and superstitions like 'matter' and 'physical laws'. Science isn't that far into the mysteries of the Earth and human life. I think I have somehow got far ahead, probably due to excessive mushroom intake changing my brain and subsequently consciousness, but also possibly due to intelligent and open minded approaches to the problems of life and present human knowledge. Terence McKenna's notion that the universe is some kind of conundrum with "levels, locks and keys, and if you get it right it will give way to something completely unexpected" rings exceedingly true for me.

The more I say about this the more it will sound like typical schizophrenic symptoms.

But even if these substances exacerbate schizophrenia I am not worried at this point. Actually I am not worried about anything any more, I am only interested in a respectful, intelligently co-ordinated acquisition of novel experiences and perspectives, almost exclusively through altering the brain. Everything is clearly going to work out, this whole life scenario is not what we think it is.

 

[crOOk]

i have no rational explanation for how i have recovered from schizophrenia. Let's just say this is just another age of various myths and superstitions like 'matter' and 'physical laws'. Science isn't that far into the mysteries of the earth and human life. I think i have somehow got far ahead, probably due to excessive mushroom intake changing my brain and subsequently consciousness, but also possibly due to intelligent and open minded approaches to the problems of life and present human knowledge. Terence mckenna's notion that the universe is some kind of conundrum with "levels, locks and keys, and if you get it right it will give way to something completely unexpected" rings exceedingly true for me.

qft and no, it doesn't sound schizophrenic at all. science is just really fucking arrogant.

 

[Foreigner]

Terence McKenna's notion that the universe is some kind of conundrum with "levels, locks and keys, and if you get it right it will give way to something completely unexpected" rings exceedingly true for me.

That's a really fascinating point, actually... rings true for me as well. Did you get that from something he wrote? I'd love to read more, if so.

 

[bees_knees]

The full quote is:

"The universe is a puzzle, life is a problem to be solved, it's a conundrum, it's not what it appears to be. There are doors, there are locks and keys, there are levels, and if you get it right, somehow it will give way to something extremely unexpected."

It comes out of one of his 50 or so talks that he did across the United States. There is a torrent going around with everything they recorded him doing. The best ones in my opinion are 'The Dream Awake', 'Light of 3rd Millennium (both Austin & Chicago)' and 'Starwood'. The talk would generally focus around that theme, of what-is-reality-really what-is-happening etc.

It seems to me everything is Now and in Now you are actually being presented with a sheer puzzle, a construct with design of unknown origins, and your mind co-creates what is happening and this is the way to proceed - to change your mind, to fiddle with the nervous system.

Other quotes possibly from that talk or related talks:

"Our model of what the world is is made of words, and the world is composed of description."

"If you live long enough you discover, what you imagine and what actually is, are very close to the same thing."

"The mind is somehow a co-creator in the process of reality through acts of language."

"Science carried out its analysis of nature that went to such depth that it discovered that nature doesn't exist, except as an object of description."

 

[red22]

The effect that LSD has on schizophrenics can be highly beneficial. When one realizes that LSD isn't just some sort of variation on psychosis, this makes sense.

Gary Fisher is a psychiatrist who treated young schizophrenic kids with high doses of psilocybin and LSD.


Gary Fisher, Treating the Untreatable (interview). Higher Wisdom. Grob C, Walsh R, (editors), 2005

Treatment of Childhood Schizophrenia Utilizing LSD and Psilocybin. Gary Fisher, Ph.D, 1997, , MAPS Newsletter, vol. 7, no. 3, pp. 18-25

http://youtu.be/J01YPfOQRv8


Older schizophrenic children, ages seven to nine, had the most successful response. The least responsive children were very young and had primary autism. Although one girl who was three years old did have a successful response.
We weren’t much focused on diagnoses, as these kids were all totally dysfunctional—incredibly disturbed, violent, and noncommunicative. However, their behavior changed somewhat, even with the young children who were nonverbal and who didn’t have as much response. One three-year-old girl initially would not let anyone touch her or allow any interaction. After the LSD treatments, she would want to come and touch you and be with you, and sit on your knee and stroke you. Totally opposite from before, when if you got near her she would screech. So behavior changed, even in kids who had no verbal ability and no interaction, which is amazing. (from the first link)

 

[bees_knees]

Yeah I would say psilocybin, because I haven't taken LSD, isn't 'psychotomimetic' or psychosis-mimicking. In fact it makes where you were before the drug ingestment seem pathological.

 

[crOOk]

Yeah I would say psilocybin, because I haven't taken LSD, isn't 'psychotomimetic' or psychosis-mimicking. In fact it makes where you were before the drug ingestment seem pathological.

Ofc it isn't a perfect psychotomimetic, but both dissociatives and psychedelics can mimic aspects of schizophrenia. E.g. startle reflex is increased in both, but there are more examples. Like I said, the perceptive changes I get when I'm in full-blown mania very closely resemble those I've seen on psychedelics. Still, I don't like the term either. The first times I heard it, I got pretty mad because I was an avid psychedelics user and psychosis seemed like a very bad thing unlike psychedelics.