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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Quitting/Tapering Thread.

So I'd been sober almost 7 years from opiates..until I fell off 2 weeks ago.. my very last time I used subs and tapered myself.

little curious, how long did you taper for? What was the experience like?

I did my last 0.1 approx 7 hours ago....when is the earliest I can take a Teeny piece of a strip of needed? And is it at all humanly possible to taper using just 2 8mg strips and still be okay enough to function? (Since it hasn't gotten bad?) I can't lose my kids any advice/knowledge/links even just positivity is so much appreciated!

Technically speaking there is a test your meant to take when inducting from a full agonist opiate like heroin to a partial agonist. The test is simple, once you hit like an 18 or thereabouts you can take your suboxone/buprenorphine.

That said for reasons not yet understood if you keep going back to heroin, switching between bup and smack your going to find the inductions onto bupe getting harder and harder, requiring you to wait longer period of time. The longer you use the harder it is. So for example if you take a single shot of heroin and then either go back to using suboxone or simple stop you should be ok. If you use heroin for several weeks and try to induct onto bupe after doing this several times in a year you'll find it even harder.

I had been using something like 500mg a day. I had waited 24 hours, I was like 40 on the COWS so I thought I was safe to inducted. Unfortunately my withdrawal went from a 40 to god knows, it felt like a 60. I literally halluicnated and heard things that weren't there. It was like being in a living nightmare. And that is despite having in the first hour 18mg of bupe, followed by another 24mg over the next 6-8 hours.

Obviously its been approx 17 hours since you took your bupe so fingers crossed your ok. But let me promise, assure you, that you can't keep doing this. If you get through this think yourself bloody lucky.

It's been 14 hours and I just took 1/8 and feel just fine... wasn't TOO bad yet to begin with, though. Just irritable, nausea, restless legs a little and the runs (Sry tmi) a little.... hot n cold flashes too but could still eat and walk around and sleep (thanks to a script for benzos I have stockpiled because I rarely take them)... since I wasn't on subs to begin with I really don't know how much I need or what 'regimen' if you will, to go by... any suggestions?

Well definitely the GABA agonists help. again fingers cross you inducted safely.

Thanks for responding and I will take your advice and keep tapering . . . I just want off now but I am too old and have been on these meds too long to jump off even at this low dose. Just having someone to talk to about it is so helpful; not something I want to advertise. I didn’t know about the inflammation response. I looked up temgesic on GoodRx.com and this site says it’s no longer manufactured but I’ll ask my doctor. I’ll keep reading and I won’t swear much :).

Hey PM me anytime. You can definitely jump off them, even if you need help. Its doable and thousands of people are doing it everyday.

Just remember your not alone and there is a ton of help out there if you know how to ask for it. Your not a criminal, your not doing anything wrong. If you taper down and you need help in the final week that you designated as your jump point, ask your doctor for some clonidine. That stuff is magic. Especially with helping mild withdrawals. You can't take it for a long time but if you need help for say the 5 days after your withdrawals

Temgesic is apparently being manufactured again. Besides talk to your prescriber about the different opiates available. sometimes different countries have different medicines produced under different names.. I would however stay away from fentanyl.
 
little curious, how long did you taper for? What was the experience like?



Technically speaking there is a test your meant to take when inducting from a full agonist opiate like heroin to a partial agonist. The test is simple, once you hit like an 18 or thereabouts you can take your suboxone/buprenorphine.

That said for reasons not yet understood if you keep going back to heroin, switching between bup and smack your going to find the inductions onto bupe getting harder and harder, requiring you to wait longer period of time. The longer you use the harder it is. So for example if you take a single shot of heroin and then either go back to using suboxone or simple stop you should be ok. If you use heroin for several weeks and try to induct onto bupe after doing this several times in a year you'll find it even harder.

I had been using something like 500mg a day. I had waited 24 hours, I was like 40 on the COWS so I thought I was safe to inducted. Unfortunately my withdrawal went from a 40 to god knows, it felt like a 60. I literally halluicnated and heard things that weren't there. It was like being in a living nightmare. And that is despite having in the first hour 18mg of bupe, followed by another 24mg over the next 6-8 hours.

Obviously its been approx 17 hours since you took your bupe so fingers crossed your ok. But let me promise, assure you, that you can't keep doing this. If you get through this think yourself bloody lucky.



Well definitely the GABA agonists help. again fingers cross you inducted safely.

When I tapered off the subs before I had stopped the dope completely, and was taking UP TO one strip per day, no more than 1/4 at a time.... What I basically did for quite a while was I would take them, say, three times per day or whatever. I always took it at the same time. So each day, I waited an extra 1/2 hour before my "scheduled" dose. I integrated that with taking away teeny tiny (I mean TEENY!) pieces from each dose. This went on for about 6 months, and by that time, I was taking about 2mg/day, just once in the morning, and then I had to unexpectedly move ACROSS THE COUNTRY with only a couple days notice. The day I left I had four subs. I had no idea where or how to get any more after that. So I basically calculated it mathematically and toughed it out. It took me 15 days.It was a little rough, but not unbearable....

Anyway.. Last night went just fine. I actually felt BETTER than I had in months! I even stayed up late to clean the house!
This morning I took a little more than 1/8 and again, I feel perfectly normal! (thankfully)
 
Going to rehab tomorrow for the first and hopefully last time. Wish me luck.

Anyone here been to South Pacific Private? Most of the people I spoke to at NA meetings I went to said they thought it was the best one in Sydney, despite having crazy strict rules (no phones, no electronics, no smoking, no fucking sugar).
 
Last April, I finally came off my last 5mg of methadone after a 2 year hx of OxyContin misuse/abuse. I was admitted to a private hospital at that time to manage any withdrawal Sx I may experience, but the only thing I remember is having a runny nose, and nothing else. in fact every withdrawal cows/sows chart I completed, I barely got 5/points. (At the night of my addiction I was taking approx 350mg oxy per day, more if I could find it.

i never felt better, then about 2 months ago someone gave me a pack of the old fashioned Oxus and I went to town, and after the last one I stated to feel sick, as in the flu. I had no idea I was in withdrawal as I never felt this coming off methadone. I'm now using heroine every day and if I don't have it, I feel disgusting. Sore stomach, runny nose, no energy, yawning, not to mention I look bloody aw evil. Why am I feeling such a stronger withdrawal than the methadone withdrawal, and how the fuck did I get myself into this mess. I had a decent enough reason the first time, but this time? How the hell am I meant to quit when no one knows my secret?

Any advice? Anyone, I'm really scared, I don't know how to get out of this mess I've made.
 
Withdrawal is something that gets worse every time you go through it, in my experience. There's also the fact that you originally withdrew off methadone, which has a longer half life, and so causes a more prolonged but (relatively) less severe withdrawal compared to opioids with a longer half life.

How the hell am I meant to quit when no one knows my secret?

Maybe try opening up about it with friends and family who you think might be supportive. An opiate addiction isn't something you can just keep secret from the people around you indefinitely, one way or another it will probably come out eventually - better that it happens on your terms.

Good luck.
 
Withdrawal is something that gets worse every time you go through it, in my experience.

I'm going to chime in and say this is absolutely my experience too. It gets worse and worse until the very thought - literally the mere thought - brings on a physiological response. After approximately seven years of opiate/opioid abuse/dependence with use of heroin, oxycodone, codeine, opium, fentanyl, and various RC opioids (including the relatively excellent 4FBF) I have had the roughest time tapering and jumping off.

I mentioned L-tyrosine earlier in this thread and let me re-iterate that it helped enormously. Having said that, I have jumped cold turkey several times from a high place, so I appreciate any help at all. Magnesium and L-tyrosine have helped more than anything else, but obviously RLS, (increased) depression, anxiety, anger, and insomnia are going to be a big part of jumping off after dependence.

Due to a big move and new employment, I am two weeks off opiates after seven years. Wish me luck.
 
good luck. keep up the anti-inflammatory agents ok. Anything that stops IL-1β, IL-6, and TNF-α will definitely help you in the post opiate induced withdrawal syndrome phase. if you feel tempted and the memories of the pain and agony isn't enough to stop you from using then come on here and hassle one of us.

good luck with the new job
 
Thanks very much, chugs. Truth is that if I hadn't completely removed myself from all old stimulus and put myself in this position where drug use is simply not an option, I am fairly certain that I would not have made the jump. I'm going to be in this drug free situation for a year and I'm hoping that when I do go back to the old circumstances I will be able to do so without relapsing.

I think I'm getting to a point where I'm just tired of being dependent on something and sick of ups and downs from substance abuse. For a while at least I'm just hoping for a bit of naturally sustainable stability.
 
Halif2 I was watching today a show depicting the protagonists journey with AA and it made me realised how we use guilt. How normal people unaffected by drug addiction use guilt, how it infects those addicted to drugs, causes us to do some terrible things.

Drug addiction is really a way of describing a concept, that for the want of better words, is about self-medicating pain. The word pain encompass a whole range of things. From a cut on an arm, to the deep psychological pain that we hold inside from abuse, from self-inflicted mistakes, injuries and accidents, to the pain caused by the drugs we took in the first place to self-medicate, to the drug induced sickness (aka "withdrawals") it is all fundamentally about pain.

When i've been "straight" for a period of time and find myself wanting to use again I find the best way to describe state of mind is one of pain and agony. I'm usually going through a stressful period, probably sick with some sort of infection or injury. I'm literally hurting and all I want is some relief. Even when there is nothing wrong with me the anxiety and depression I feel on an otherwise normal day is also a form of pain.

I spend my hours wishing I could just get some relief. To have a shot of heroin and be able to get on with my day. To be able to work, do my chores, be the person i need to be for my family and community. and then there are the days after several weeks of intense hard work (both at home and work), where I just want to sit back, play some music and shoot up a big shot. I find myself hating most of the drugs legally available these days. Alcohol makes me groggy and feel sick. I can't take codeine because i'm on suboxone and i really can't take a lot of suboxone because I don't want to end up on an out of a control suboxone addiction (and running out).

It all comes back to pain and the relief from it.

You are not a super soldier. You were born with a brain structure abnormal to those disciplined normal's out there. Your body is primed to feel pain on a different level. Your body has a heightened response to pain.

So what i'm getting at is that we all have our limits. And the day that we hit those limits, whether its been 5 days or 10 years it doesn't matter. I'm not saying your going to fail. That is a false dichotomy. A man who's arm is amputated has a legitimate reason to have some opiates.

Someone who's brain triggers a heighten response to pain is in itself a legitimate reason to have opiates. Just no one knows it. They look upon on us when we fall off the wagon as losers, junkies and failures. That we've let our families down. That we're selfish, lazy and inconsiderate.

The reality is that drug addicts are some of the strongest people I've ever meet. The pain that we're bathed in would drive a normal person insane. Indeed we don't even realise it most of time.

Imagine being born with a never ending constant headache. You would never know what life was without until the day you had a shot of morphine and all of a sudden your feeling life like others do, without the pain of the headache. Indeed this experience causes you to feel a response of elated amazement. I know when i had my first shot of heroin that I suddenly felt like I was as light as a feather. What I only realise now, over twenty years later that the reason I felt that way was because I had been carrying around a 50 kg pack of pain.

I felt amazing because i was no longer in pain. They say junkies chase the dragon because they wanna feel high. Think of the analogy. Why on earth would we want to chase a fucking dragon. A man eating dragon. Because the pain that the dragon could cause is no worse then the pain that made me chase it in the first place is.

For those not afflicted by a malfunctioning Glia and PAG more then likely a short of heroin is extremely euphoric for them. For me, its about being pain free.

The real problem is that heroin costs $300-600 a gram and because of the tolerance one develops its simply unaffordable.

That said you need to start planning Halif for the day when you'll use again. Will you stop after one shot. Do you have the tools and medications to assist in getting through the acute opiate induced sickness syndrome. Do you have the right people around you that won't make you feel guilty, taht won't attack you and make you out to be a loser. Is there someone you can tell the truth to, to be honest and open with.

You need to start changing your mindset so your not beset by feelings of self-loathing, of seeing it as a matter of failing. Life will get hard. It will fucking hurt. Denying this will only cause it to mount up and end up getting to a point where you cannot handle it. You don't want yourself to end up in a positive feedback loop of guilt, use, denial, use, guilt, denial....

Personally I have decided on a terribly unorthodox way of dealing with this problem. Terribly illegal, expensive and complex but I plan to have implemented a solution that will mitigate the key problem that a person with raging opiate addiction has....and that is running out. If you never ran out you could use and never have to worry about, not having enough money. Dealing dealers and law enforcement issues, health problems from shit fucking heroin and huge amount of time required to find money, find dealers, drive around a city looking, getting on, waiting, and so on.

Its really just a matter of logistics right. . So once i've worked it out i'll be sure to report back to you guys.

A shame we can't start up a co-op.
 
You are not a super soldier. You were born with a brain structure abnormal to those disciplined normal's out there. Your body is primed to feel pain on a different level. Your body has a heightened response to pain.

That seems like a pretty defeatist attitude. "Your brain is screwed up, so just accept that you're never going to be free of drugs." Really? Fuck that. That's no better than twelve step programs and their doctrine of powerlessness. And your brain can change. One of the fundamental tenets of modern neuroscience is the concept of neuroplasticity - that your brain can restructure itself based on changing circumstance and behavior.

I agree with all the stuff you said about guilt, but I disagree with your idea that people should just accept their addictions and settle into them. I think we should always strive to improve, to keep bettering ourselves, even in the face of adversity and failure. To face our problems and work through them, instead of just accepting a lifetime of self medication. And it's absolutely possible - there are tons of people out there who have pulled through all sorts of horrible adversity.

It's not fast, it's not easy, there will be repeated setbacks and failures, but the first step is deciding that you can reach a better place than the one you're currently in, instead of throwing the towel in because things seem more difficult for you than they might be for other people.
 
Agreed.
Halif, i'm really happy for you man.
I know (to some degree) what your struggle has been like, and you've had anything but a cruisy ride to get to where you are.

Much respect and keep up the good work. Addiction is complicated, but i refuse to believe it's a life sentence.
 
There's a lot to relate to in both posts from chugs and crankinit. One thing I've never felt sure about is the extent to which my issues are a result of aspects outside my control (brain chemistry/genetics etc) or are a result of personal choices - ultimately no one ever forced drugs down my throat, after all. What I am more certain about, however, is that deciding one way or the other would not help me.

That seems like a pretty defeatist attitude. "Your brain is screwed up, so just accept that you're never going to be free of drugs." Really? Fuck that. That's no better than twelve step programs and their doctrine of powerlessness.

This is a big deal to me. I would absolutely not have made it this far if I had ever convinced myself that I was unable to resist the often overwhelming urges to abuse drugs. I have lost the internal battle countless times, but I've also won it many times. I sometimes feel resentful that I have to fight the "good fight" but the alternative would be to not fight, and then things would be very different.

And your brain can change. One of the fundamental tenets of modern neuroscience is the concept of neuroplasticity - that your brain can restructure itself based on changing circumstance and behavior.

Honestly, this torments me. When I believe that I may be able to "fix" myself (simplistic term, I know) I get anxious because I don't want to waste another minute of this life which I feel I have already lost a lot of. I start to obsess over the idea of "finding the answer". Psychiatric illness runs strong through one side of my family and addiction issues through the other - I seem to have grabbed both and they both manifested around the same time (12/13 years old), so I have had a good amount of time to try different ways of improving/altering/transforming myself (this includes personal pursuits and also psychiatrist help/medications). It was never simply a matter of turning to substances right away for escapism. I have put in work, much of it shaping me for the better, but as time went on there were increasingly more times where I simply felt too tired to keep up the incredible effort of trying to live a 'normal' life while also trying to overcome something seemingly insurmountable.

The journey continues. I am grateful that I still have a chance to try at least once more. Thanks so much for the thoughts and words of encouragement from everyone.
 
Looking for suggestions to taper off of 40 milligrams of hydrocodone per day. Have been on 70 milligrams for 10 months 40 milligrams 5 months prior to that. Have taper down to 40 with great difficulty. I also suffer from extreme anxiety and this is making it much worse thanks for any suggestions. Getting down to 40 has also caused muscle and bone pain in my legs. So maybe I went a little too fast. Or is this just to be expected. Taper down in the past several times over the years but never for this high of a dose and for this long.

Most I ever taper down from was about a seventh month use of maybe 35 to 40 a day at the most. Did that in about 3 weeks with no difficulty. Having been on them for so long this time apparently is making it more difficult and also my high level of anxiety is a big contributing factor
 
Not sure where this should go so if a moderator would be so kind and wants to put this in the appropriate thread place that would be awesome... but also any feedback would be appreciated... So im about to quit the big bad heroin habit and im thinking mixing some heavy doeses of Loperamide Hydrochloride with some L-Tyrosine should do quite well. Anything and everything i can get my hands on will be OTC so unfortunately no chance of Benzo's ... I have a few fioricets to maybe mix with some alcohol for possible sleep at night but the caffine in the fioricet makes that a long shot. Im thinking a good regiment would be to take 14-20mg of Loperamide Hydrochloride with 1500mg L-Tyrosine, 440mg naproxen sodium and maybe 200 mg 5-HTP. This is all just a hunch as ive tried pretty much everything before to relieve the withdrawal symptoms but never had all of these at once. Any feedback would be appreciated.
 
That seems like a pretty defeatist attitude. "Your brain is screwed up, so just accept that you're never going to be free of drugs." Really? Fuck that. That's no better than twelve step programs and their doctrine of powerlessness. And your brain can change. One of the fundamental tenets of modern neuroscience is the concept of neuroplasticity - that your brain can restructure itself based on changing circumstance and behavior.

Its the paradigm that you need to change. I see drug addiction in the same light as sexuality. A person who is homosexual did not choose their sexuality. Their sexuality isn't not a choice. They can't decide on being gay or straight.

My mother was subjected to terrible stress when she was pregnant with me. When I was born that stress continued. The abuse i suffered in my child appears to have caused physical and ongoing harm. Those stress hormones changed my glia and other parts of my brain causing inflammatory chemicals to be produced, especially during stressful events. These chemicals bind to the Mu and Ku opiate receptors in the PAG, amongst other receptors, causing all sorts of physiological and psychological pain.

I've been in pain all my life and I didn't know it until I had my first shot of heroin. What I thought was a high was really the absence of pain. Even when i've quit taking drugs the the original malfunction is still occurring. In some individuals the pain is worse and in others its less, probably because they had a lower exposure to these stress hormones.

So one person who give up drugs is able to do so because their levels of pain, depression and anxiety are of a lesser degree whilst in my case it is definitely higher so Therefore its not defeatist to accept that some people simply do not have the strength to deal with the pain they are experiencing.

Some people can keep on working with a headache. When I get headaches a lump grows on my right temple and I have blinding pain for several days. I cannot deny that i get this pain and I treat my pain with power pain killers. My other pain, caused by my malfunctioning brain is also a reason why I use powerful painkillers. Years of anxiety make it really difficult for me to deal with social gatherings, so drugs that reverse that are something I take. The problem is that I have to take these drugs regularly in order to be "normal".

But you simply cannot say that everyone can choose to say no to pain and just "man up and deal with it".

I agree with all the stuff you said about guilt, but I disagree with your idea that people should just accept their addictions and settle into them. I think we should always strive to improve, to keep bettering ourselves, even in the face of adversity and failure. To face our problems and work through them, instead of just accepting a lifetime of self medication. And it's absolutely possible - there are tons of people out there who have pulled through all sorts of horrible adversity.

What is wrong with medication? This puritan belief that we should live life without drugs is so insidious and terrible. My brain makes all sorts of drugs and chemicals. DMT, powerful opioids, and even alcholol. Taking drugs is natural. Animals do it all the time.

I agree that we should strive to be better people. That we should ensure that we discharge our responsibilities in a proper fashion, be accountable for our families and loved ones and ultimately do the right thing by ourselves and our society.

But saying that means not taking drugs to deal with legitimate pain issues is wrong. I would not believe you Crankinit if you said your not in pain when your free of drugs.

The real problem with drugs is their cost and purity. If drugs were easily available, regulated, managed and controlled we could ensure that we all get access to the drugs that offer effective relief. I strongly believe that our medical system has been hijacked and offers us second class medications like prozac, buprorphine (for opiate addiction) and so on because its afraid of letting people get "high".

There's a lot to relate to in both posts from chugs and crankinit. One thing I've never felt sure about is the extent to which my issues are a result of aspects outside my control (brain chemistry/genetics etc) or are a result of personal choices - ultimately no one ever forced drugs down my throat, after all. What I am more certain about, however, is that deciding one way or the other would not help me.

This is a big deal to me. I would absolutely not have made it this far if I had ever convinced myself that I was unable to resist the often overwhelming urges to abuse drugs. I have lost the internal battle countless times, but I've also won it many times. I sometimes feel resentful that I have to fight the "good fight" but the alternative would be to not fight, and then things would be very different.

But this is where I believe guilt has deluded us from the real paradigm. You see your relapses as a failure of character. A weakness. That all you wanted to do was get "high".

I see your relapse as you were in pain. A pain caused by real, actual, toxic chemicals that your own body produced. That pain built up until you could stand it no longer and took the drugs that offered you escape from that agony. You were tolerating a pain that is so insidious that you can't even see it for what it really is.

Some days however that pain is not as bad and yes you can choose to forgo medication, and on those days you won what you saw as a battle.

Honestly, this torments me. When I believe that I may be able to "fix" myself (simplistic term, I know) I get anxious because I don't want to waste another minute of this life which I feel I have already lost a lot of. I start to obsess over the idea of "finding the answer". Psychiatric illness runs strong through one side of my family and addiction issues through the other - I seem to have grabbed both and they both manifested around the same time (12/13 years old), so I have had a good amount of time to try different ways of improving/altering/transforming myself (this includes personal pursuits and also psychiatrist help/medications). It was never simply a matter of turning to substances right away for escapism. I have put in work, much of it shaping me for the better, but as time went on there were increasingly more times where I simply felt too tired to keep up the incredible effort of trying to live a 'normal' life while also trying to overcome something seemingly insurmountable.

For years I suffered from crippling anxiety. I didn't even know that what I was suffering was wrong. I thought i was weak, that something was wrong me if I couldn't handle it. Indeed I didn't even realise that it was a matter that I should seek help on. That anxiety was so insane. HOurs upon hours of panic attacks. Covered in sweat. Utterly crippled by delusions and fears.

When I started using heroin I found that those those panic attacks disappeared. It was like giving man dying of thirst a cold bottle of water. Once I had drunk my fill I had even forgotten that I had been dying of thirst.

Addiction is a misnomer. The idea that all your problems will be solved once you stop taking drugs is delusional.....the anxiety, mental illness and physical pain caused by inflammatory products in our body are widespread and significant. Unfortunately the very medications we take form part of a positive feedback loop.

Part of the drug provide relief from the inflammatory chemicals but the other part of the drug actually causes your body to produce more of these chemicals where they build up until the day can no longer afford these expensive drugs. Elevated levels of these chemicals flood out causing you intense sickness a'la withdrawals.

Back to modern medicine.

Modern medicine has been design to avoid giving people "highs" because of the belief that the high is a key factor in addiction. But what if the reality is this. That the alternative medicines aren't that effective because the high is a critical part of the pain relief?

Going back to what I said to crankinit earlier. Happiness is an absent of pain. Perhaps a high feels like a high because your utterly absent of any pain and the medications that don't give a high aren't 100 % effective.

Why would legal medicine's be crippled in this way. Why would their doses be manipulated to avoid giving patients a high, or only allow terminal patients access to these powerful drugs at significant levels. I would argue religion is the true reason. it seems has infected the way our medicine work, and how we look at drugs and addiction. Religion despise narcotics because they're competitive with what religions and god supposedly offer. What else can elate us? Take us all the way to a 10. Let us literally see a high level dimension (like DMT?)

To clarify there are a metric ton of doctors and scientists out there from a religious background. Our laws, the ethics and morality that controls how we test for drugs, the anti-drug laws, how we control substances all relate to how high these substances make us.

Drugs like cannabis are high on the lists of controlled substances not because of its LD50 but because of the sole fact that we get really high from it.

Heroin is my god in some ways. It brings me a salvation, a relief from all pain that nothing else comes close to.

Our entire legal, philosophical and medical system is built on religions which is why they've ensured that narcotics are outlawed. Its religious organisations that actively lobby for illegal drug laws. Look at Pell in the 1990s banning the heroin prescription trial and drug injection centre. There are so many examples of historical and modern insistences where the church, and in other countries where other religions are dominate, have actively pursued efforts to ensure narcotics are illegal.

Indeed don't they say that the real opiate of the masses is religion?
 
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Not sure where this should go so if a moderator would be so kind and wants to put this in the appropriate thread place that would be awesome... but also any feedback would be appreciated... So im about to quit the big bad heroin habit and im thinking mixing some heavy doeses of Loperamide Hydrochloride with some L-Tyrosine should do quite well. Anything and everything i can get my hands on will be OTC so unfortunately no chance of Benzo's ... I have a few fioricets to maybe mix with some alcohol for possible sleep at night but the caffine in the fioricet makes that a long shot. Im thinking a good regiment would be to take 14-20mg of Loperamide Hydrochloride with 1500mg L-Tyrosine, 440mg naproxen sodium and maybe 200 mg 5-HTP. This is all just a hunch as ive tried pretty much everything before to relieve the withdrawal symptoms but never had all of these at once. Any feedback would be appreciated.

1. Loperamide is an opiate. It will cause what you call withdrawals if used in heavy doses. It can also cross the blood brain barrier.
2. The most effective way to avoid a terrible withdrawal event is to taper. Taper until your on or below the standard dose equiv of morphine (20mg a day). You should be able to stop using at that level with little discomfort.
3. If you cannot stop taper down then why is it that you cannot see a doctor and at the very least get a script for some clonidine?

Otherwise if its home detox from a high dose of heroin then i guess do the loperamide. It will bind to the opiate receptors in your gut so at the very least when you've had your last dose of heroin the inflammatory cytokines, binding to the mu/ku receptors in your body won't bind to the gut ones and thus spare you the pain of that particular aspect of dope induced sickness.

Looking for suggestions to taper off of 40 milligrams of hydrocodone per day. Have been on 70 milligrams for 10 months 40 milligrams 5 months prior to that. Have taper down to 40 with great difficulty. I also suffer from extreme anxiety and this is making it much worse thanks for any suggestions. Getting down to 40 has also caused muscle and bone pain in my legs. So maybe I went a little too fast. Or is this just to be expected. Taper down in the past several times over the years but never for this high of a dose and for this long.

Most I ever taper down from was about a seventh month use of maybe 35 to 40 a day at the most. Did that in about 3 weeks with no difficulty. Having been on them for so long this time apparently is making it more difficult and also my high level of anxiety is a big contributing factor

It sounds like you have a legitimate pain condition. Why do you want to quit? There is absolutely nothing wrong taking medication to treat a legitimate pain condition.

But if you do have to stop then why don't you talk to your doctor about a taper plan. 70 to 40 mg is a massive jump. You should taper over a very long period of time and with much lower drops. You should also talk about a short cycle of clonidine and benzos for when you get to the end of your taper plan. That will take care of the worst of your symptoms.
 
Its the paradigm that you need to change. I see drug addiction in the same light as sexuality. A person who is homosexual did not choose their sexuality. Their sexuality isn't not a choice. They can't decide on being gay or straight.

I think that's a false equivalency. You're correct, there's no convincing evidence that people can choose their sexual orientation, but on the other hand there's plenty of convincing evidence that people can change their lives to the point that they no longer require drugs.

My mother was subjected to terrible stress when she was pregnant with me. When I was born that stress continued. The abuse i suffered in my child appears to have caused physical and ongoing harm. Those stress hormones changed my glia and other parts of my brain causing inflammatory chemicals to be produced, especially during stressful events. These chemicals bind to the Mu and Ku opiate receptors in the PAG, amongst other receptors, causing all sorts of physiological and psychological pain.

I've been in pain all my life and I didn't know it until I had my first shot of heroin. What I thought was a high was really the absence of pain. Even when i've quit taking drugs the the original malfunction is still occurring. In some individuals the pain is worse and in others its less, probably because they had a lower exposure to these stress hormones.

So one person who give up drugs is able to do so because their levels of pain, depression and anxiety are of a lesser degree whilst in my case it is definitely higher so Therefore its not defeatist to accept that some people simply do not have the strength to deal with the pain they are experiencing.

Some people can keep on working with a headache. When I get headaches a lump grows on my right temple and I have blinding pain for several days. I cannot deny that i get this pain and I treat my pain with power pain killers. My other pain, caused by my malfunctioning brain is also a reason why I use powerful painkillers. Years of anxiety make it really difficult for me to deal with social gatherings, so drugs that reverse that are something I take. The problem is that I have to take these drugs regularly in order to be "normal".

But you simply cannot say that everyone can choose to say no to pain and just "man up and deal with it".

What I'm trying to say isn't "man up and deal with it." What I'm trying to say is that there are routes you can take towards changing your internal and external environment, to undo the wiring in your brain which has resulted in emotional pain and to the resulting craving for drugs to dull that discomfort, and then the additional craving for drugs caused by dependence as your body adapts to their presence. Maybe you don't have the strength to deal with the pain you're experiencing here and now, and so you use drugs, and that's your choice, but there's no reason to believe you cannot change yourself and your environment to reduce that pain, reducing and potentially eliminating the need for drugs to numb it.


What is wrong with medication? This puritan belief that we should live life without drugs is so insidious and terrible. My brain makes all sorts of drugs and chemicals. DMT, powerful opioids, and even alcholol. Taking drugs is natural. Animals do it all the time.

There's nothing puritan about it, I have no moral objection to drug use. However all drug use comes with a cost - in finance, in physical and mental health, in neurology, in life opportunities and in the continuing dependence they cause. Sometimes that cost is worth it, and when that cost is worth it, by all means, take drugs. But sometimes, especially involving on-going self medication of the sort we're discussing, that cost mounts and the drug use becomes unsustainable.

In these cases, eventually a point is reached where the cost outweighs the benefit, and at that point you can decide to keep using the drug, even though it is causing more harm than good, or you can decide to find other ways to approach your pain, to cope with it, manage it, and hopefully eventually eliminate it.

Personally, I've already paid quite enough for my drug use, and continue to do so. I don't want to continue spending money on drugs instead of using it on things which will allow me to create a better life for myself, open myself up to new experiences, to pursue my goals and have a more positive influence on the world around me. I don't want to continue to suffer the health problems caused by drug intake. I firmly believe I can be happier and healthier than I currently am (and I am currently happier and healthier than I was in the past, which is why I believe continued improvement is possible), but not if I just allow myself to sink into a rut of permanent self medication.

But saying that means not taking drugs to deal with legitimate pain issues is wrong. I would not believe you Crankinit if you said your not in pain when your free of drugs.

In honesty I couldn't say, since I technically haven't been "free of drugs" in over 5 years (if we're counting suboxone maintenance), and not for extended periods of time in closer to 8 or 9 years. But I know other people have done it, I know that over the last few years I have managed to increase my happiness and significantly decrease my need to take drugs to deal with discomfort and pain (emotional and physical) as a result of a concerted effort to discover the source of this discomfort and pain and then discover the means to address it, and I firmly believe that I can continue to do so.

Hopefully I can do this to the point where I have complete control over my drug use and can choose to take them only when the costs associated are minimal or non-existent, but any reduction in my dependence on drugs, and so a reduction in the associated costs, is a victory by my count.
 
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I taper off from 70 to 40 over several weeks. I do have pain issues but they can be managed without narcotics. I have actually been on benzodiazepines for a long time also. I had a major chronic pancreatitis flare up several years ago and that's why I've been taking them on and off for the past 3 years. Back in February I increase my dose due to a back problem. I no longer need them for pancreatitis. I also found it they greatly help my severe anxiety as over the past two years I've tried multiple antidepressants with no luck with them relieving anxiety.

Dr. Doesn't want to give me any more benzos unless I get off the opioids says that it's practically a legal to prescribe them now due to a new FDA Black Box warning of prescribing benzos 4 people on narcotics. He has reluctantly given me a small Supply of benzos recently as I've been tapering down from the opioids. He also suggested going on buprenorphine for short period time to get off the. hydrocodone quicker. I tried to buprenorphine for 3 Days a couple weeks ago and my anxiety was through the roof and ended up having a panic attack. I am considering going on small dose of buprenorphine again for about a week or so 2 get past the hydrocodone withdrawal. But I'm very apprehensive due to the very high anxiety level I'm at now and the exasperated anxiety I got when I switched to the buprenorph

I only needed to take a small dose of buprenorphine but it was plenty to cover the withdrawals of the hydrocodone just that my anxiety was over the top.

Read some other posts in this forum that people had success with short-term detoxes using buprenorphine but they were on considerably more hydrocodone that I was on.

Most input from other people was to skip the buprenorphine and just to continue tapering off the hydrocodone at this point that buprenorphine would be Overkill so to speak to get off butt I also read couple posts people taking about 60 milligrams using buprenorphine for several days or able to mask the withdrawals with the buprenorphine and come off without too much difficulty. But that was from somebody who was not suffering from such extreme anxiety. Thanks for your reply
 
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