Neo-doves Part II

[phase_dancer]

Do you think now the chemicals are indentified they will be mixed with MDMA in street ecstasy as the chemicals are so cheap to get from labs that do custom synths overseas.

That's a good question, and I'm sure there'll be others thinking along the same lines. The phthamimido cathinone is widely available from reputable chemical suppliers and the others would likely be relatively inexpensive and available from China. It's possibly already happened with the neorg products themselves being repackaged into pills. At least the chemical profile of the compounds has been identified, so one would hope any news of police seizures of tablets containing these products would filter down to us. But one can never be sure, unless perhaps one is privy to Forensics only publications.

 

[Splatt]

Without naking prices specifically, all the cathinone drugs seem to cost less than BZP/piperazines. Are they that easy to synth?

I bet we'll see that company in europe again use these products now, the place tyhat lets u select between 50-5000+ pills of your choice, any colour, various logos, and varying ratios of piperazines and caffeine. wehich were being sold on the street as white bombs in the UK for a long time until someone found that website and the logo was there exact, along with like 50 others. I think another logo was a rocket. Every pill has the same professional looking press but im pretty sure you had the option of three different sized pills., one was rather silly though, 11 x 6 was the max, the minimum size was normal street pill size.

 

[phase_dancer]

Without naking prices specifically, all the cathinone drugs seem to cost less than BZP/piperazines. Are they that easy to synth?

Very simple. After having no luck searching for any available info on 4-methylmethcathinone, I was sent a link to a synth that originally appeared on the now defunct hive board. Providing the chems were available, that post indicated it can be made from toluene in about 48 hours. Another method, using less chemicals (but starting from a less common chemical) stated ~40 mins, but the product quality wasn't confirmed.

I don't want to discuss synths in detail, although I will say that in relation to the other cathinones, the usual starting material is a Cat # 1 chemical in the Code of Practice for Supply Diversion into Illicit Drug Manufacture, and as such requires the purchasing company to hold an account with the supplier and fill out an End User Declaration when purchasing. So, while the starting material could be synthed from other things, it's not an off the shelf item. However, it is used extensively as a perfume enhancer, a polymerisation sensitiser, and in the production of ephedrine and related compounds and I've no idea how it's regulated within these industries.

 

[antheads]

just to clarify the federal laws.. border controlled drugs in the criminal code do have an analouge clause which is implemented by reference in the customs act.

 

[Tabaluga]

just to clarify the federal laws.. border controlled drugs in the criminal code do have an analouge clause which is implemented by reference in the customs act.

thanks for reminding me of that. I noted the same a few months back, but had since forgotten. Do you remember where in the customs act?
This issue comes up frequently on other forums and I am trying to collate the relevant info so it is easier to refer to in posts.

 

[Tabaluga]

I'm always sadly amused whenever the criminal code analogue clause is mentioned. This piece of legislation is so broad it encompasses most things done in Uni organic chemistry and even some stuff in Biomed and Biochem classes.

I think section (f) might actually be worth a challenge at some stage as it is quite ludicrous, however the previous sections are probably quite solid in legal terms. The NSW analogs clause is quite similar to the a-e sections.



Until a few years ago, Salvinorum A was an example of a compound that had slipped through this net.

Indeed so had the piperazines.



With the example of the 2CB story, I believe that it was a far more open and shut case, despite Shulgin attempting to explain that 2CB was not a derivative of a methoxyPEA and was synthesized via a route that did not require the methoxy PEA intermediate. Nice try, but I felt that with the starting compound being dimethoxybenzaldehyde I think it would have been difficult to convince anyone not accustomed with chemical synthesis, and even then, the crown found expert witnesses who said it was a derivative. In contrast, with Fluoromethamphetamine however, I think any such relationship between either a methoxyPEA or an alkyl substituted PEA is non-existant.

The common mistake we all make and which the appeals court clearly demonstrated is the wrong legal approach is to equate the legal term 'structural derivative' with the chemistry term 'derivative'. The 2CB case clearly showed that a compound does not have to be synthetically derivable from another compound in order to be defined a structural derivative. ie, it is pretty inconceivable and quite possibly synthetically impossible to make DET out of DMT [considering the auto-oxidative and acid sensitive nature of the molecule], yet in legal terms the DET most certainly is a structural derivative of DMT.

So, swapping out methoxies with halogens might not be synthetically viable, but on paper it is a structural drivative and hence covered by the law.



Why? Because the typical route to manufacture would require p-fluorobenzaldehyde, or for that to be synthesized from p-chlorobenzaldehyde. There's not a methoxy in sight, and no starting material, reagent or intermediate that contains a methoxy group (or a ring substituted alkyl group).

As I said, the derivation only has to be structurally and only on paper. No chemistry involved.


I could be wrong though, as I'm certainly not well versed in law and this sort of legal precedent.

I am not a legal expert either. But after getting wrong advice from barristers on things that could have landed me in jail for decades I made it my business to understand drug law.
The good thing is that common law is not finite. The problem however is that this particular matter had already gone to a level of appeal, so at least in NSW the lower courts would be bound by it. More importantly the process in NSW shows that even if you have an expert witness like Sasha you can still get screwed on definitions if the prosecution has expert witnesses that are better at convincing the judge and jury.



However, in saying that, under the criminal code wording, and analogue/ designer legislation from other states, there is no doubt 4-Fluoromethamphetmaine would be regarded as an analogue of methamphetamine, which, from a chemistry perspective it most certainly is.

And again, the legal definition does not have to match the chemistry definition. In fact the appeals case showed that the definition used in law has to be the common dictionary definition UNLESS the word is defined in the act itself [might have to have a look if it is].

Are there any other cases where the legislation has been acted on? There could be heaps, but I've not seen any referred to.

Most analog cases do not make it to court as the people involved usually have a string of other offences and in the end plead out. I also have the feeling that the authorities really don't liketesting the analogs clause as it could easily be trashed in a higher court and then become totally useless. However in the early or mid 90's there was at least one conviction involving methcathinone before this compound was added to the NSW schedules.

 

[Splatt]

I know plenty of people who've been done with research chemicals. The case gets thrown out after a lab test, but the people usually have speed, pills and cannabis anyway..

the first ever RC case was a case including some guy who had a bunch of illegal drugs but also a fair amount of 2C-T-7.. Im sure it made federal court so there would be info out there somewhere. I think the possess for 2c-t-7 was dropped. as it wasn't illegal. and to this day isn't a banned import asaik. but is an analogue.

 

[Verybuffed]

Sorry to be ignorant but can someone please, according to the test results, put this into street terms for me?

SC =
ND =
SC2 =
Spirit =
Push Up =
Compressor

All I can interpret from the results is that

SC = Something like Meth
ND = Something like Khat

How about the theory that the SC's are "speed like", the ND's are "Euphoric" and the rest are a mix of the two in different ratios?

If any of this is inappropriate, in any way, Mods please feel free to delete.

 

[phase_dancer]

Thanks Tabaluga. I've always found it hard to understand how law employs terms by their common definitions, while these same terms may also be used within the subject of concern, but have specific or alternative meanings. You're right, clause (f) should be amended, with the ambiguous term term "substantially similar" removed altogether.

Sorry to be ignorant but can someone please, according to the test results, put this into street terms for me?

Covered on page 7

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=5565354&postcount=172

 

[Verybuffed]

Sorry I meant like:

After the test results what can we tell people is in them?
ND = MDMA like Substance
SC = Speed like substance
Spirit - ???? Like substance

 

[phase_dancer]

That's a bit hard as the pharmacology for some compounds is unknown and for others it's difficult to accuarately state what the mixture of compounds will do.

Subjective assessment from users is probably the best way to gauge how similar these compounds are to MDMA etc.

 

[antheads]

it was stated by the authors that the samples were aquired 12 months ago in some fashion, i wonder if they sought ethical approval for the 'purchase' of th testing samples? we have to remember that this work has been done for the cause of advancing harm reduction solutions for those that need it.. be informed then choose. the study is indicitive of the products 12 months ago and has to be seen as a pilot study in the process to provide acurate hr info about the products . however i'm goin to broaden things out and speculate-rant on some concept stuff, any feedback would be appreciated

-do the various people from various relevant fields see hr as different things? we passionalty believe that there are harm reduction solutions for drug abuse, drug impurity and drug enforcement , do we share A 'fuzzy' set of shared goals and methods AS WELL ? s.;


i'm way down with harm reduction solutions for eg offering the gov policy makers/medical holdouts and the pretty much most of LE an intelectual/ethical incentive to consider empathageons and *mild euporic stimulax (amongst others) in a more uhh wholistic legal and medical contexttss. a

as a broad hr alliance we should need to consider continueing on starboys pioneering prohibitionun smashing work and learning the lessons of that unbelievable memetic culturebomb take that aspect of hr to the next level, perhaps by combining concepts such as legalisation and medical regulation...

i'm just throwing ideas out there for discourse, but having read what happened at the rave castle the idea of legal observers at rave parties where it is expected the cops are ahh, enthusiastic.., the legal observer model seems to have worked well in mass protests and direct actions. of course it dosn't stop the police overarm battoning kids or groupsmashing punks, running people over with horses and various other toomfoolerry but at least its recorded by an accredited legal observer. just one area of concern for legal hr would be the filth sorry i mean our beloved public servants overeaching their reasonable suspisciion guidelines in regards to their usage of sniffer dogs in crowded enviroments like raves, frestivals and doofs..

structure funding models: ngo or perhaps clusters of ngo's and business's establishing efficent ppp with relevant goverment departments??. individuals getting involved doin the same with the aim of constructing a broad, solid rebel alliance of thinkers with the experience to know what needs to happen.

in collaboration and binary polarity slowly but surely propagating the positives of harm reduction, cognitive liberty and medical entactogenic/psyche**lic theraqpy and research..

Enough of kids going to jail for years for self medicating! when will the prohibiton cancer to forced into remmision>?
take this rant as presented phew....

"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."

Terrence McKenna

 

[mad_scientist]

Thanks Tabaluga. I've always found it hard to understand how law employs terms by their common definitions, while these same terms may also be used within the subject of concern, but have specific or alternative meanings. You're right, clause (f) should be amended, with the ambiguous term term "substantially similar" removed altogether.

I find that interesting, as in New Zealand the "substantially similar" clause is much more important, and indeed is the main way of covering analogues which fall outside the much narrower analogues provisions in Class C7 of the New Zealand Misuse of Drugs Act.

The New Zealand Ministry of Health has twice now threatened to use the "substantially similar" provision to intimidate party pill companies into taking dubious products off the market, first saying methylone is substantially similar to methcathinone and/or MDMA, and more recently to say that diphenylprolinol is substantially similar to pipradrol.

However neither of these cases have actually been taken to court, which suggests somewhat that the police are not overly confident that the substantially similar clause would be upheld by the court, and are satisfied with just using it to scare the party pill companies into taking the offending products off the market.

It will be interesting to see what the outcome is when a case finally makes it to court in New Zealand under this provision, as whatever happens in that case will then be used as the precedent to interpret the Australian law (although only persuasive not binding precedent of course).

I think its pretty inevitable that they will have to give it a try sooner or later, as given that BZP looks to be banned in New Zealand sometime in early 2008, the market will almost certainly be flooded with new replacement products.

 

[Mona Lisa]

Yes, I think that more countries will introduce various inclusive analogue clauses in efforts to stamp out the legal highs industry. It won't happen overnight but would have thought within two years. In the meantime, it will be a cat and mouse game.

 

[Splatt]

The new products will be totally different with unknown new drug ingredients but have no smell. All I heard was not stronger, just cleaner (and better apparently).
I have heard...

 

[tadfish]

just wondering what some of those adverse reactions were?
Just after having a big night drinking alot and snorting Halcion (i not sure why i was snorting benzos was really drunk) i snorted a spirit then i realize like my left leg was numb and dull.
that was on friday and its now tuesday and my leg still feels this way.
i am not sure if it was the neo's or the excessive alcohol and careless lifestyle.

Also after using the neo's in excess of saturday my face went pale and sort of yellow.

well this leg thing is startin to make me paranoid, i have been using the neo range alot laterly and drinkin alot.
Do i have a clot or done some nerve damage???

 

[Splatt]

ive experienced that mixing ND/SC's with alcohol and benzos.

 

[tadfish]

so are u ok now
can u be more detailed splatt?
Wondering if i should see a doc.
well some valium would have still been in my system when i snorted the spirit.

it seems that the neo range tend to cause nausea when people first try it the next day. does anyone have any idea why this is?

 

[Mona Lisa]

The new products will be totally different with unknown new drug ingredients but have no smell. All I heard was not stronger, just cleaner (and better apparently).
I have heard...

Am looking forward to trying these when they come out. At least the Cat and Mouse game means we get to try different things.

 

[Splatt]

ill porbably try em but it seems as dumb as getting street ecstasy pills now.