LA Times: Doctors are top source of prescription drugs for chronic abusers

[neversickanymore]

*yawn*

 

[opi8]

You are not really thinking this through at all Asclepius.
I think about everything I type, where did I state that everyone would be addicted? I didn't, I was simply stating having every drug readily available with no consequences would create more addicts, I don't see how it possibly wouldn't. Also, those who would be trying heroin... I guarantee you most of them wouldn't be straight edge people jumping right to heroin. Probably most of them (not all...please read carefully) have used other substances which is why they would want to take a step up towards heroin.

Please don't assume I am just rambling on about things like a lot of people do. Also not sure why you are asking me about whats the best possible solution for those who become addicted from an open drug market... I simply stated all drugs available to all with no legal repercussions would simply be a way of a sort of natural selection to take place. Please read more carefully

Where did I say that I wanted to have every drug readily available with no consequences. You're twisting my words and blah blah.

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

Duh?!

It seems doctors give opiates to those who don't need them and give nsaids and tylenol to people in real need of them, that's my experience and it is what ultimately lead to me going black market for meds and when that became too expensive, just said fuck it and when on methadone (now suboxone after some horrible side effects from the former).

Just this last monday, when I go take my pharmacist supervised dosage of suboxone and leave with my 6 doses for the following days at 8 am just when the pharmacy opens, this other person, not sure if it was a girl or a very effiminate guy, whatever, i didn't have my contact lens on, she arrived before me, straight from the ER apparently (i recognize the local ER yellow script papers) and this person somehow had a morphine script along with an antibiotic. I don't know what for, but the person didn't seem in pain at all and was all hesitant asking the pharmacist "can I take an advil or tylenol instead sometimes?" and even the pharmacist was like wow "no tylenol will not help you in this situation, but yes you can take advil if you drive etc." and she goes "can someone do sports if they take this MS IR thing?" and the pharmacist again goes "well you could, but there's chances you'll just want to relax, better to take it at night."

I was boiling of rage inside.

The countless times I went to the ER for serious shit that my maxillofacial dnetist (who retired soon after meeting him) got me on Empracets 60 (60mg codeine/300mg tylenol) and some naproxen too that only hurt my stomach and gave me diarrhea. I have severe issues related to my left jaw and the nerves around it from an accident at a hardcore punk show at my 18 year old birthday. Only twice over above 50 visits to many area hospitals ER's did I walk out with opiates, by total chance from the same ER doctor at 2 different hospitals! Well I don't count the fiorinal with codeine i was given a couple times. One time I walked with a 30 day script with no refill of Supeudol 5mg (OXY IR, no tylenol) and one time 2 4mg dilaudids to go home with. The other times I do not count, as they were for extreme cough from pneumonia (hydrocodone/codeine syrup) where doctors usually are indulgent if you show yourself to be taking care of yourself before showing up to the ER. But people who are not in pain, asking nonchalantly about if they can not use their MS IR's ( I heard she had the jackpot morphine pill wise too heh) like they don't even want to use it.

Compared to this 6'2 240 lbs ex pro (AHL for a couple years) hockey player that I am screaming in pain, but never crying, because I had learned to internalize my pain so much that I was unable to even tell them I was over 7 out of 10 in pain in the triage zone, because they wouldn't believe a 8-9, which was the truth, feeling like when after I awoke from a nasal surgery pain-wise. Where I was either given a shit priority (lowest to second lowest out of 5 increments) when absolutely nothing was going on, I even had the goddamn nurse come tell me and the only other person left in the ER that the doctor was going to sleep unless an ambulance came at around 4am, so no service from 4 to 7 pm when they switch doctor.

That was all before I got a personal GP. But I didn't abuse his "generosity" of those 30 5mg Hycodans (hydrocodone) or those 60 30mg codeine/300mg tylenol scripts with no refill that I would go and refill several months later as to not raise the "junkie alarm". That was all before I got mad enough at the system though and started the same game heroin users go through when I got into shooting up Dilaudid to save money(and inadvertently discover that rush...). Now I couldn't even use him, since a retarded ER doctor scripted me an extremely dangerous antibiotic (Avelox) knowing she was on methadone then, my pharmacist was like what the fuck is this, I knew it didn't make any sense to co-script those 2. And it didn't, but somehow my GP managed to know about it. I can't even get the reasonable 15 count of nitrazepam with no refill I needed for those massive insomnia bouts caused by work related anxiety. He laughs when i say what's the problem we did that before. Now i'm condemned to take a dose of suboxone that is equal to 39mg of Dilaudid IV a day (12mg, for now anyway). I switched from methadone for multiple reasons, one was because the max dosage I got to was equal to 18mg of Dilaudid IV a day, a little more than my average daily addiction was (8mg was my minimum dose, in 2 shots, and i'd fare ok with 16, would go and take more some other times but anyway, you get the point).

I don't know where those doctors that create unwarranted opiate addicts out there, but they certainly do not come to me, and I'd need one of those, well needed, it's too late now, I gotta take the subpar relief that a partial agonist like bupe gives me and face the fact my tolerance is now massive compared as to when I was shooting up daily, sure my life isn't a complicated, money wasting mess anymore, but what price should have I needed to pay ? Injure myself more ? Seems like it didn't matter how physically worn out I was, you're under 30! Take your tylenol and shut up! is all i've known more or less. (not under 30 anymore, unfortunately).

 

[*Asclepius*]

There are a bunch of new accounts that all seem to agree and have similar views to a person who I have hidden. I have never seen so many people sign up only to argue in threads with this person. Of course, I am a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist. I was also the first person to mention pmoseman's excessive editing. Maybe her views are simply shared by a lot of people that have never bothered to come to a forum that is obviously unsuited to them and their views. I will not waste my time with trolls, though.

whats the point of this if no one can share a view different than yours? Seems pretty boring and a bit of a cop out.

Thank you The Real Oblivion for getting back on topic, hopefully these real trolls stop with the personal attacks and respect peoples views

 

[*Asclepius*]

Where did I say that I wanted to have every drug readily available with no consequences. You're twisting my words and blah blah.

haha, where did I claim that you said you wanted every drug readily available.... I clearly said, if you can please read again, that it is what I (me, myself) was talking about...

also, why are you answering my question with a question?

 

[opi8]

whats the point of this if no one can share a view different than yours? Seems pretty boring and a bit of a cop out.

I'm all for differing opinions being presented, but if those opinions of different people are only that of one person sharing multiple accounts, or one person asking their friends to simply come and argue for them, then I don't give them much weight. There is also a problem with holding a position, or a point of view, even when the evidence proves the opposite. Being unable to change one's opinion in a "discussion" does not make a "discussion".

haha, where did I claim that you said you wanted every drug readily available.... I clearly said, if you can please read again, that it is what I (me, myself) was talking about...

also, why are you answering my question with a question?

Because that seems to be your response to anybody who doesn't share your view. You say they have twisted your words by expressing their opinion.

 

[opi8]

That's so true THE_REAL_OBLIVION, people who don't need pain meds are those who often get it. Many people in legitimate pain cannot get adequate pain relief, often because of their age or how they look.

It's sickening, especially knowing that many of those people who don't need pain relief sell it to those who do on the black market. I can't be too upset though, I'd make a 1,000% markup on panadol if a doctor gave it to me too, if I didn't need it.

There are so many problems with the current system.

 

[*Asclepius*]

I'm all for differing opinions being presented, but if those opinions of different people are only that of one person sharing multiple accounts, or one person asking their friends to simply come and argue for them, then I don't give them much weight. There is also a problem with holding a position, or a point of view, even when the evidence proves the opposite. Being unable to change one's opinion in a "discussion" does not make a "discussion".


Because that seems to be your response to anybody who doesn't share your view. You say they have twisted your words by expressing their opinion.

There's really no talking to you is there? You still haven't answered my question and give me an example of how I twisted any words around.

Also, how does your statement "because that seems to be your response to anybody who doesn't share your view" have anything to do with what I posted above? Like how did that have anything to do with me "not sharing a view"???? I am really baffled to how that was your response to me talking about what I had previously said. Please help me understand how you are seeing things that have not been typed help me understand your random responses and dodging of my questions

 

[*Asclepius*]

That's so true THE_REAL_OBLIVION, people who don't need pain meds are those who often get it. Many people in legitimate pain cannot get adequate pain relief, often because of their age or how they look.

It's sickening, especially knowing that many of those people who don't need pain relief sell it to those who do on the black market. I can't be too upset though, I'd make a 1,000% markup on panadol if a doctor gave it to me too, if I didn't need it.

There are so many problems with the current system.

The whole age and look thing is pretty outdated by now. Sure there are a few doctors out there that do that and some refuse to give any narcotics to anybody because they don't believe in them. They say things like, your going to have to learn to deal with the pain. I have had a few doctors say this to me and one called me an addict because of my past history with an overdose. It is more about medical records than age or how you look nowadays. My best friend is a pharmacist and is the most well dressed man I have ever seen and he is denied pain killers for his back problems because his primary doesn't believe in narcotics for chronic pain. It is all about moving around (not too much mind you) to find a doctor that suites you. If there is real pain and proof of it, you WILL find a doctor who will help you get the medications you NEED.

My girlfriend is a felon for heroin possession and looks like a total hippie. She even doesn't get thrown out of offices as being a drug seeker because she is honest and doesn't just want heavy narcotics. They don't prescribe her medications like this readily and they pursue a multitude of different way of helping her with her pain before they would think about narcotics or other things like such. There are a lot of drug seekers that say they have pain when a lot (Not saying all, so don't start some thing about that) of it is just mental or not really worthy of having those narcotics (some people can't even live their lives because of pain, these people need those meds). Speaking from someone who has CRPS, real chronic pain is insanely horrible and a lot of doctors can see the people with truly disabling chronic pain. Most the time I can't even hold a eating utensil in my hand even with my medications in full effect. Too many people claim their depression and other mental disabilities are a reason they should be on a mind altering drugs when there are a lot of medications out there that can help them with this, but refuse them and think they doctor is being unfair because the meds don't give them the feeling they want. (Mind you, not saying this about everyone.... just a big majority, I have seen it first hand)

 

[THE_REAL_OBLIVION]

That wasn't exactly my point but sure. I'm saying that I saw an apparently absolutely pain-free person with an ER script for morphine pills asking if they can take tylenol and do sports when taking them. While me, who went to that same very ER pretty damn often out of desperation, was denied help 90% of the time probably cos I had a Slayer shirt on or my hair was a bit too long for their liking, but I'll never know, I never was told such thing directly. I have a bad attitude by default which gets aggravated by constant boring pain in my jaw and trigeminal nerve endings.

Those days are gone since even bupe is better than nothing, but methadone was a disgusting side-effect laden thing after more than 7-8 months on it (testosterone, cortisol down the shitter) and like a lot of people I meet at the ORT clinic, suboxone is starting to give me liver pain and some of the girls in there told me about pancreatitis and swelling of the liver they experienced (the latter almost died).

Nothing beats morphine. Before I messed with the ineffective (orally) Dilaudid and even the high-dosage HydromorphContins, I needed to eat 2 of the 12mg ones to feel anything from them orally. Even high dose codeine works better for me, I forgot to mention that the maxillofacial dentist specialist whom correctly diagnosed me and scripted me empracets (codeine/tylenol) and naproxen retired 5 months after seeing him, also scripted me CodeineContins 200mg, a couple of those and I was good ALL DAY. So I was left in the total dark with ER's that either don't care, give injections of Toradol which help for maybe 20 minutes and everything else I said in the previous post. My looks have nothing to do with it, when i decide to cut my hair I cut it back just like before I became a full time musician (who could have had more success had pain not even prevented me of showing up at practice..losing friends, the list of things they've caused me is really long and boring).

I'll never forget what this system did to me, and i'm not american! No DEA breathing down the neck of any doctor here!



p.s. those antidepressants you champion for depression are extremely mind altering in their own right, most if not all hit way more receptors than a basic painkiller and makes it very difficult to get off of. I'm not depressed, I did develope an anxiety disorder from the years of rejection and non treatment by a system that is supposed to be free and full of awesome. They're not. A psychiatrist happily scripts me 2 benzos (my real unwanted addiction which IS the real danger when it comes to viciously physical addiction, opiates are a complete joke when you compare their wd to benzo wd). I don't even need to see the psychiatrist, I just have my pharmacy fax a request when the refills are over and i'm loaded with valium and xanax...that I only need now to feel normal. Because a psychiatrist decided the accident and resulting damage to my left jaw area was psychosomatic and inducing an anxiety disorder.

lel

 

[*Asclepius*]

That wasn't exactly my point but sure. I'm saying that I saw an apparently absolutely pain-free person with an ER script for morphine pills asking if they can take tylenol and do sports when taking them. While me, who went to that same very ER pretty damn often out of desperation, was denied help 90% of the time probably cos I had a Slayer shirt on or my hair was a bit too long for their liking, but I'll never know, I never was told such thing directly. I have a bad attitude by default which gets aggravated by constant boring pain in my jaw and trigeminal nerve endings.

Those days are gone since even bupe is better than nothing, but methadone was a disgusting side-effect laden thing after more than 7-8 months on it (testosterone, cortisol down the shitter) and like a lot of people I meet at the ORT clinic, suboxone is starting to give me liver pain and some of the girls in there told me about pancreatitis and swelling of the liver they experienced (the latter almost died).

Nothing beats morphine. Before I messed with the ineffective (orally) Dilaudid and even the high-dosage HydromorphContins, I needed to eat 2 of the 12mg ones to feel anything from them orally. Even high dose codeine works better for me, I forgot to mention that the maxillofacial dentist specialist whom correctly diagnosed me and scripted me empracets (codeine/tylenol) and naproxen retired 5 months after seeing him, also scripted me CodeineContins 200mg, a couple of those and I was good ALL DAY. So I was left in the total dark with ER's that either don't care, give injections of Toradol which help for maybe 20 minutes and everything else I said in the previous post. My looks have nothing to do with it, when i decide to cut my hair I cut it back just like before I became a full time musician (who could have had more success had pain not even prevented me of showing up at practice..losing friends, the list of things they've caused me is really long and boring).

I'll never forget what this system did to me, and i'm not american! No DEA breathing down the neck of any doctor here!



p.s. those antidepressants you champion for depression are extremely mind altering in their own right, most if not all hit way more receptors than a basic painkiller and makes it very difficult to get off of. I'm not depressed, I did develope an anxiety disorder from the years of rejection and non treatment by a system that is supposed to be free and full of awesome. They're not. A psychiatrist happily scripts me 2 benzos (my real unwanted addiction which IS the real danger when it comes to viciously physical addiction, opiates are a complete joke when you compare their wd to benzo wd). I don't even need to see the psychiatrist, I just have my pharmacy fax a request when the refills are over and i'm loaded with valium and xanax...that I only need now to feel normal. Because a psychiatrist decided the accident and resulting damage to my left jaw area was psychosomatic and inducing an anxiety disorder.

lel

I appreciate your views and I agree with you for the most part, but I did not "champion" anti depressants what so ever. I just said there ARE medications out there for depression and other mental disorders that aren't necessarily mind altering like a narcotic (some are, yes and I wasn't disputing that particularly)... Also, I was not saying you had depression or anything really about you whatsoever other than I agree with you for the most part. My comment was on opi8's comment about your comment, sorry if this confused you in to thinking I was commenting about you

 

[neversickanymore]

You should look at mental health in recovery to get a better idea of how safe these substances are. You seem to have a really naive view of the mind altering potential of of these medications as well as their really common negative consequences. Addiction is not the worst side effect of medications or drugs by far, how about the people that take medications and ere never able to feel emotion ever again. People become dependent on the handed out like candy SSRI all the time. many people consider benzos to be worse to with drawl from than herion. The side effects from opiates are usually pretty similar and small, some of the side effects from the medications you may be thinking of absolutely insane.

 

[*Asclepius*]

You should look at mental health in recovery to get a better idea of how safe these substances are. You seem to have a really naive view of the mind altering potential of of these medications as well as their really common negative consequences. Addiction is not the worst side effect of medications or drugs by far, how about the people that take medications and ere never able to feel emotion ever again. People become dependent on the handed out like candy SSRI all the time. many people consider benzos to be worse to with drawl from than herion. The side effects from opiates are usually pretty similar and small, some of the side effects from the medications you may be thinking of absolutely insane.

What are you talking about? Where did this withdrawal discussion come from... like I have been talking about withdrawal? hahaha, you crack me up, what is naive is you thinking ALL these medications for depression and other mental disorders (which is waaaay more than just SSRI's) are mind altering like narcotics (never once did I say most weren't mind altering, I was comparing to narcotics buddy!)... which is what I was talking about in my post. This is a huuuuuge example of how you are trying to change my words to make some argument that doesn't even exist, done with yet another one of your useless posts.

 

[neversickanymore]

Sorry I was mistaken please define what meditations you are talking about when you say there "ARE medications out there for depression."

In addition please state why you think these medications are appropriate.

I dont agree with your favorable opinion in comparing so many other "medications" to opiates.

So instead of me presenting what I feal is an obvious refute to your underlying fallacious conclusions why dont you present your own basis so we can then go from their and hopefully come to the just conclusion?

 

[S.J.B.]

Unfortunately you have to consider a user's confused mental state and short-sightedness.

I certainly don't have to consider any ridiculous blanket statements like that one. Some users of illicit drugs are undoubtedly confused and/or short-sighted at least some of the time, but so are some users of exclusively licit drugs, and so are some people who don't use drugs at all.

 

[*Asclepius*]

"my real unwanted addiction which is the real danger when it comes to viciously physical addiction, opiates are a complete joke when you compare their wd to benzo wd"

That is pretty insensitive to people who have actually had real opiate withdrawals. Speaking from experience and having been on clonazepam for 6 years and xanax for 4 years. In my opinion (which is what you should have said instead of stating it like its fact) my opana withdrawal of 3 years was an infinite amount worse than either of those. Hell, fentanyl or my heroin withdrawal of 6 months was atleast 10 times worse than a benzo withdrawal.

Cannot stand people declaring their opinions and personal experience as if they are absolute truths for everyone.

P.s. And no my benzo doses were not "too low" amounts compared to the opiate doses

 

[*Asclepius*]

Also who said I was talking about pharmaceuticals when it comes to just depression and or anxiety problems. Many case studies have proven that there are plenty of herbal remedies out there that don't cause dependency issues or create mind altering effects that may be unpleasant or pleasant, they simply just help brain chemistry.

Saint John's Wort has been proven to do very well with low level depression in many case studies.

Saffron, although expensive has also been shown in case studies to help depression and even help with digestion

5-htp for depression and even anxiety, while many antidepresants artifically stop the production of enzymes that break down serotonin, 5htp gives the body more of the raw materials it needs to make more serotonin. 5-htp is very good at crossing the blood brain barrier, which means it is a molecule that can get in to the brain to help achieve a need change in brain chemistry

SAMe is also very good for treating arthritis and joint pain.

As you can see there are plenty of things out there (this is just a very small list) that aren't illegal substances or the antidepressants (I was supposedly "Championing"), that people need to try and get just because their physician will not prescribe them what they want. Using your "ailments" as you call them as justification to go and use drugs that most of the time cause more problems than what your treating is ignorant and is the reason why we need people in "recovery support". There are reasons why doctors don't prescribe certain people things (note: I am not saying this is always the case). If mutliple doctors are saying the same thing and showing you the door, its not some big conspiracy against, A slayer shirt, long hair, or just being ugly. It's because you most likely (note: again not saying all the cases out there) don't need that substance as bad as your mind is letting on and or your just clearly trying to get drugs because you haven't even considered or just brush aside a natural remedy or something that won't make you just "feel good" and forget your "ailments".

 

[STF219]

All pain-management doctors in my metro area require patients receiving opioids to sign a "narcotic contract" that call for "surprise urine tests" to determine if they are using their meds as prescribed and to look for any other drugs of abuse. I assumed this would be standard procedure throughout the USA. I don't think an addict or recreational user would patronize any doctor who he/she knows is going to pop a urine test during treatment. If a patients get "discharged" by any doctor for violation of the narcotic contract, it's impossible to get another doc in the area to prescribe.

 

[f33lg00d]

Asclepius: 5-htp won't do anything if you already get enough in you're diet.

 

[pmoseman]

Asclepius: 5-htp won't do anything if you already get enough in you're diet.

Enough what in your diet?