Opioids Kratom Megathread V.6

[Jabberwocky]

In the sense kratom is an opioid, dependency is more commonly an issue than with Damp. We don’t know yet how “toxic” kratom is, but we do know serious amp use tend to be associated with a number of health issue.

Kratom is probably a little more forgiving in that sense, but it’s one of the more problematic opioids out there in terms of health effect - this Im saying from my experience taking opioid for about a decade, most seen a little easier on the body.

At this point we can only really speculate though. Both heavy kratom and amp use are associated with health problems when taken to the extreme, so it’s always good to try and cultivate the healthiest possible habits with this stuff.

 

[phuckingnutz]

WITHOUT naming vendors (so I don't think I'm breaking rules here and if I am someone let me know...I've never heard of rules saying we can't mention credit card companies or pay pal...) has anyone had problems ordering Kratom using Visas, Mastercards or paypal lately?

Because on another forum devoted only to Kratom some users are saying that now Visa and Mastercard have a policy of never working with Kratom vendors anymore and that evidently paypal has been forbidden to work with Kratom vendors for over 5 years and that every time anyone has ordered Kratom using paypal it's because the vendor has an illegal work-around and that eventually anyone who uses those vendors will have their credit card accounts and pay pal accounts frozen.

Is this true?

Somehow I tend to doubt that it is IMPOSSIBLE to order through visa or mastercard with ANY Kratom vendor but I haven't ordered Kratom for 2 months, but about 2 months back a few times I used a paypal account to order Kratom through a mastercard with a certain vendor and had no issues and this poster on this other forum is saying that that is illegal and I'm just getting away with it for now but eventually my account will be frozen.

Is this true or is it bullshit??

Has anyone successfully ordered Kratom (don't name the vendor...) from any vendor within the past few weeks using a Visa or Mastercard NOT through a paypal account?

Thanks.

Yeah, my vendor still takes cards...I think, but the FDA is putting the squeeze on Kratom through a "Salmonella Scare". It's easier to get it banned through the FDA than the DEA, I think.
I buy several kilos at a time and I have had to send WU or cash the last couple of times I bought. They aren't even taking BTC any more.
Also, my vendor informed me that it was getting so hard to get through customs that they were not going to take on any new customers.
Personally I have stocked up because Big Pharma has a hard on for Kratom and it is just a matter of time until it is banned...IMHO, as well as that of countless others.
If you like it you might want to stock up.
I, too, have cut most of my customers off, at least until it is not so hard to import.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Have not heard of a problem with ordering Kratom. Yet...

Sounds similar to what happens to nootropics market. Maybe FDA is pushing vendors to narrow their money channel and sales so it's easier to control?

Or just like with recreational MJ in US - sales are in millions but very few legitimate financial institutions are working with it.


EDIT: Holy shit! Kratom vendor I have been using now says that the store is closed and will remain so. WTF?
I'll email them and see if I can get some answers...

Yep, my vendors have informed me that they and other vendors are being "pushed" out of the Kratom business. Their kratom is being seized as it comes into the country.
Hell, last time I was going to buy some Kratom I looked on my vendors site and couldn't even find Kratom listed any more and I had to get a special link to even view it.
I have been very fortunate in having a reliable vendor who has extremely good...potent, organic, "safe" from contaminants such as E, Coli and Salmonella...if the last thing even IS a thing.
I am told by my vendor that the Salmonella scare is a con job to fast track a Kratom ban. Jeff Sessions has tried to ban it through drug channels to no avail so this newest thing makes it a "health issue" and they can circumvent many of the legal barriers that Sessions ran into.

 

[Mycophile]

In the sense kratom is an opioid, dependency is more commonly an issue than with Damp. We don?t know yet how ?toxic? kratom is, but we do know serious amp use tend to be associated with a number of health issue.

Kratom is probably a little more forgiving in that sense, but it?s one of the more problematic opioids out there in terms of health effect - this Im saying from my experience taking opioid for about a decade, most seen a little easier on the body.

At this point we can only really speculate though. Both heavy kratom and amp use are associated with health problems when taken to the extreme, so it?s always good to try and cultivate the healthiest possible habits with this stuff.

How is Kratom one of the more problematic opioids in terms of health problems, especially in comparison to Oxy, vicodin and heroin?

All those are far worse.

I have never allowed my kratom usage to get completely out of control but i've never noticed really serious health effects aside from not feeling so great for a few days if i use too much.

Yeah, my vendor still takes cards...I think, but the FDA is putting the squeeze on Kratom through a "Salmonella Scare". It's easier to get it banned through the FDA than the DEA, I think.
I buy several kilos at a time and I have had to send WU or cash the last couple of times I bought. They aren't even taking BTC any more.
Also, my vendor informed me that it was getting so hard to get through customs that they were not going to take on any new customers.
Personally I have stocked up because Big Pharma has a hard on for Kratom and it is just a matter of time until it is banned...IMHO, as well as that of countless others.
If you like it you might want to stock up.
I, too, have cut most of my customers off, at least until it is not so hard to import.

I keep thinking about stocking up but i'm the sort who can use too much and likes to be able to let it run out before buying more so i don't get addicted, but that soon it may be a choice between having a lot or having none for the rest of my life, then again, even if i stock up it's not like that would NEVER run out so either way it will run out sooner or later.

i guess i have a friend who would be willing to take kilos off my hands if i decide to stock up but then feel like i can't moderate and want to get rid of them but it's a shitty situation to be in.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I am not speaking of addiction or dependency, but how it seems to be associated with liver issues. It’s unclear what the health issues with kratom actually are, but it does seem to be associated with more problems than traditional opioids which by and large are pretty easy on the system.

Most of the issues reported with kratom were from people also using other drugs, so it’s hard to say if it’s really an issue with kratom. I’m just trying to point out that traditional opioids do seem easier on the body. I can certainly notice how kratom did a number on my liver/kidney or somewhere around here. Taking too much would make it feel inflamed. That has never been an issue with opioids like morphine.

Heroin and oxycodone are actually quite forgiving on the body, it’s more issue with addiction and withdrawal that cause folks problems.

If one was using, say, pure heroin and had an unlimited legal supply, as long as one avoided OD (and didn’t have any issues with their endocrine system) they would be able to use a lot over a very long period of time and probably not have serious health consequences. I doubt this would be the case with heavy long term kratom use, based on my experience with how it impacted my health using it for about six months.

If you moderate your habit, don’t over do it with the dose, avoided combining it with other drugs (especially things like alcohol that tax the liver) and take regular breaks, I doubt you’d experience much in the way of health consequences.

 

[Mycophile]

I mean is there anyone on here who is concerned about stocking up because they find they are easier able to control their habit when they don't have large quantities around and if so, did you decide to stock up anyway?

And if you did, after stocking up did your use escalate heavily?

Cause I dont' and never will use Kratom daily and can't afford to be addicted to it.

I use it on and off and don't like the idea of having to think I have kilos in my possession with no choice but to use self control not to take it daily...but from what everyone seems to think, this situation is unavoidable.

 

[Mycophile]

I am not speaking of addiction or dependency, but how it seems to be associated with liver issues. It’s unclear what the health issues with kratom actually are, but it does seem to be associated with more problems than traditional opioids which by and large are pretty easy on the system.

Most of the issues reported with kratom were from people also using other drugs, so it’s hard to say if it’s really an issue with kratom. I’m just trying to point out that traditional opioids do seem easier on the body. I can certainly notice how kratom did a number on my liver/kidney or somewhere around here. Taking too much would make it feel inflamed. That has never been an issue with opioids like morphine.

Heroin and oxycodone are actually quite forgiving on the body, it’s more issue with addiction and withdrawal that cause folks problems.

If one was using, say, pure heroin and had an unlimited legal supply, as long as one avoided OD (and didn’t have any issues with their endocrine system) they would be able to use a lot over a very long period of time and probably not have serious health consequences. I doubt this would be the case with heavy long term kratom use, based on my experience with how it impacted my health using it for about six months.

If you moderate your habit, don’t over do it with the dose, avoided combining it with other drugs (especially things like alcohol that tax the liver) and take regular breaks, I doubt you’d experience much in the way of health consequences.

I've never had liver issues and I think many people think that it's only that certain people's livers can't metabolize it.

I don't know man, I think however you want to define it, that if one has to choose to get involved with Heroin, Oxy or or Dilaudid for example, that you are taking a MUCH bigger risk than getting involved with Kratom.

I wouldn't touch heroin with a ten foot pole but I'm not worried about Kratom at all.

 

[Lobsterbutch]

^^ Hey just a warning, kratom is more physically addicting than dexedrine and weed. I would not recommend not using it every day unless you have to.

Just to clarify, Pickledlemons means "I would not recommend using it every day...". Not recommending to not use it every day is basically recommending to use it every day. Although it was pretty clear he meant "don't use it everyday", I probably would've taken it the wrong way if I was flying a few more sheets to the wind. Actually, this really isn't even constructive for me to point out, so I'm not 100% sure why I did it.............................................could be that I'm already flying one sheet too many in the wind.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Oh for sure, especially illegal opioid use, kratom is definitely better. With my experience of kratom withdrawal compared to other opioid withdrawal, I found I actually was more easily able to treat traditional opioid withdrawal compared to kratom withdrawal. It wasn’t as bad physically coming off kratom, but psychologically was a lot more difficult for me than opioids normally has been.

I don’t think there is much to be concerned about kratom personally, as people have been using it for so long. It just isnt an opioid I would want to be dependent on - but that goes for all opioids now. Well, I guess I would rather be dependent on kratom than heroin and short acting opioids, but as a general rule I’d take buprenorphine or methadone over kratom any day.

Different folks different strokes. It’s worth keeping in mind if potential liver issues with serious kratom use, but if one avoids things like alcohol while using it will most likely not be a big problem. Most other opioids might not have the potential liver issues, but they certainly have their own particular issues too.

 

[FlawedByDesign]

I mean is there anyone on here who is concerned about stocking up because they find they are easier able to control their habit when they don't have large quantities around and if so, did you decide to stock up anyway?

And if you did, after stocking up did your use escalate heavily?

Cause I dont' and never will use Kratom daily and can't afford to be addicted to it.

I use it on and off and don't like the idea of having to think I have kilos in my possession with no choice but to use self control not to take it daily...but from what everyone seems to think, this situation is unavoidable.

In my case having a couple kgs laying around did indeed increase my consumption a bit. Now that I?m older and wiser I realize the bulk discounts plus using as little as possible can really stretch a stash. Comparable to how I smoke more weed when I have an ounce compared to an 1/8. Unfortunately I quit Kratom in a few days and it?s safe to do I?m going to miss it but it will be nice to have one less thing to depend on.

 

[Mycophile]

In my case having a couple kgs laying around did indeed increase my consumption a bit. Now that I?m older and wiser I realize the bulk discounts plus using as little as possible can really stretch a stash. Comparable to how I smoke more weed when I have an ounce compared to an 1/8. Unfortunately I quit Kratom in a few days and it?s safe to do I?m going to miss it but it will be nice to have one less thing to depend on.

What did your point about stretching a stash have to do with making you use more?

Or was that just an extra point you threw in there?

So do you think you'd recommend against stocking up for someone like me who at times has some trouble with moderation, even facing the fact that if it becomes illegal I might never have a chance to use again?

I mean in comparison to a LOT of Kratom users I have good self control considering that only once have a I ever used Kratom on 5 days in a single week, thought I've taken it 4 days many weeks, and never once have I taken Kratom 6 or 7 days a week in about 3-4 years of using.

I also made myself go 11 months and change without once.

And maybe this is an odd question, but because I have never had a kilo in my possession and don't even know what they look like in terms of size: lets just pretend a scenario in which you have, say, 2 kilos, and you don't have anyone to give them to, and don't want to just throw it ALL out at once in the garbage (if it's illegal lets pretend you want to be less suspicious): do you think it would be hard to slowly and gradually dispose of that amount of Kratom??? (like some in the garbage, some toilet, some in a forest, etc)??

Or would that amount of Kratom be seriously difficult to actually get rid of because there would just be so much of it?

Thanks

 

[Adaoud25]

If kratom became scheduled 1 tomorrow, do you guys think it will go underground in the US? Like, i dont see people slanging kratom. And since its a plant, it would have to be smuggled in huge bails which would be easily found by customs. I Feel If it became illegal, people will just stop using it. Its not easy to grow like marijuana, hard to grow un US climates. Does anyone share this thought? I just think people would move to something else, alternatives. Maybe kratom extracts will noom if it became schedule 1.

 

[RDP89]

If kratom became scheduled 1 tomorrow, do you guys think it will go underground in the US? Like, i dont see people slanging kratom. And since its a plant, it would have to be smuggled in huge bails which would be easily found by customs. I Feel If it became illegal, people will just stop using it. Its not easy to grow like marijuana, hard to grow un US climates. Does anyone share this thought? I just think people would move to something else, alternatives. Maybe kratom extracts will noom if it became schedule 1.

Probably not. Too many other opioids that are more profitable on the black market. Then again, there's quite a market for it, but I still doubt it.

 

[Mycophile]

Would most people say that if you go without Kratom for 2 days in a row and don't notice any withdrawal then you probably aren't going to have any on the 3rd day and aren't addicted/dependent?

I usually do pretty well at staggering my dosing days so as not to get WD but lately I've been using it more days per week/in a row than I feel I should and yet I'm still very rarely noticing WD symptoms when I used to in the past...which is nice but I wonder why.

In general I feel I tend to get fewer negative effects from Kratom than I used to, like I can sleep on it now when a year ago I couldn't sleep for like 6 hours after taking it, and my tolerance is much lower than in the old days.

Kratom is just so weird because it seems to react differently under different circumstances and it seems my body now really reacts differently to it than it once would, like it doesn't get me nearly as high as it used to, but I have fewer side effects.

So I keep telling myself based on my "old rules" that I should make it pretty common for me to go 3 full days in a row without dosing once in a while, and it's been a while since I've done that, but today was my 2nd day in a row without dosing and I don't seem to be in WD, no sniffles, and yeah, I was tired today, but that's cause my sleep schedule on the weekend is retarded so I mess myself up for mondays.

So I guess I could dose tomorrow right?

Maybe my old rules no longer apply...but I have to be smart cause then I could end up throwing all rules out the window and getting dependent and I'm not letting that happen...

I mean, logically speaking, if you don't dose 2 days in a row and don't notice WD by the end of the 2nd it isn't likely to show up on day 3 is it?

 

[Pickledlemons]

If kratom became scheduled 1 tomorrow, do you guys think it will go underground in the US? Like, i dont see people slanging kratom. And since its a plant, it would have to be smuggled in huge bails which would be easily found by customs. I Feel If it became illegal, people will just stop using it. Its not easy to grow like marijuana, hard to grow un US climates. Does anyone share this thought? I just think people would move to something else, alternatives. Maybe kratom extracts will noom if it became schedule 1.

I would buy it off the dark net like the rest of my drugs.

 

[Pickledlemons]

Would most people say that if you go without Kratom for 2 days in a row and don't notice any withdrawal then you probably aren't going to have any on the 3rd day and aren't addicted/dependent?

I usually do pretty well at staggering my dosing days so as not to get WD but lately I've been using it more days per week/in a row than I feel I should and yet I'm still very rarely noticing WD symptoms when I used to in the past...which is nice but I wonder why.

In general I feel I tend to get fewer negative effects from Kratom than I used to, like I can sleep on it now when a year ago I couldn't sleep for like 6 hours after taking it, and my tolerance is much lower than in the old days.

Kratom is just so weird because it seems to react differently under different circumstances and it seems my body now really reacts differently to it than it once would, like it doesn't get me nearly as high as it used to, but I have fewer side effects.

So I keep telling myself based on my "old rules" that I should make it pretty common for me to go 3 full days in a row without dosing once in a while, and it's been a while since I've done that, but today was my 2nd day in a row without dosing and I don't seem to be in WD, no sniffles, and yeah, I was tired today, but that's cause my sleep schedule on the weekend is retarded so I mess myself up for mondays.

So I guess I could dose tomorrow right?

Maybe my old rules no longer apply...but I have to be smart cause then I could end up throwing all rules out the window and getting dependent and I'm not letting that happen...

I mean, logically speaking, if you don't dose 2 days in a row and don't notice WD by the end of the 2nd it isn't likely to show up on day 3 is it?

Yeah your logic makes sense. I start feeling kratom withdrawal after 5 hours. Peaks around 12 hours. If you're not feeling it after 48 hours you're probably good. You never know though... withdrawal can be unpredictable.

 

[Mycophile]

Yeah your logic makes sense. I start feeling kratom withdrawal after 5 hours. Peaks around 12 hours. If you're not feeling it after 48 hours you're probably good. You never know though... withdrawal can be unpredictable.

Unpredictable though to the extent that it could show up on the 3rd day?

Seems kinda unlikely don't you think?

How long do you think someone would have to go without dosing before you'd be comfortable saying there's close to 0% chance that they'll show up?

 

[Pickledlemons]

Unpredictable though to the extent that it could show up on the 3rd day?

Seems kinda unlikely don't you think?

Yes... very unlikely.

 

[Zomygot]

Switching from Kratom to Tramadol with Complication

I take a lot of Kratom everyday. My daily dosage is very high. I have to dose every 5 hours or I become visibly uncomfortable. However, I recently received some tramadol and I would like to take those instead on days when I know I will be around a lot of people or will not have access to a water bottle for 6+ hours because tramadol lasts longer. However, I take Lexapro (escitalopram) at a very high dose (20 mg/day). I understand mixing tramadol with an SSRI is a no-no because of the risk of serotonin syndrome. I have a few questions about this.

If I stop taking escitalopram for the day, can I then take tramadol?
If not one day, can I take a couple days of escitalopram and take tramadol?
Will I experience any withdrawal from the cessation of escitalopram since I am taking another drug that acts as an anti-depressant?

Thanks,

Z

 

[Jabberwocky]

Tough situation. As a general rule I’d suggest someone not stop taking psych meds, but yeah... it would probably be safer to cut down or discontinue the SSRI.

But... do you have any seizure history? Have you ever taken tramadol before? You very well may be able to safely get away with using tramadol, albeit I’d try to keep the doses well under 300mg. Maybe try 50mg, just to be safe, then try like 100-150mg.

But if you’ve been taking a large daily dose of kratom for a while, it might not be enough release (frankly I can’t imagine 150mg wouldn’t make a big difference, but who knows).

How much kratom exactly are you dependent on per day? Like over 60g? Tapering kratom prior to stopping even just a Little would be a big help here, but it sounds like you don’t have the time for this.

And that the goal isn’t coming off kratom, just using tramadol as a substitute until you’re able to start using again? I should just ask, what are you goals with this?