• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ

Is drug induced permanent enlightenment possible?

The_Winner

The_Winner

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 2, 2009
Messages
118
Hi!


I guess first of all we should agree on at least some sort of definition of enlightenment. I would suggest it to be permanent mindfulness at all times and the absence of desire or suffering, free of any identification with ones ego.

I've been reading a lot of trip reports, in which people describe their ego-deaths and this is pretty much the reason I'm fascinated by psychedelic drugs. But it seems as if these ego-death experiences are only partial or other times short-lived.
There are lots of people, who have told, that a trip has changed their life forever, but I'm not very sure, if any of these people has really reached enlightenment. Of course, it's totally awesome, if a trip can change someones life for the better.

Do you know anyone or maybe yourself, who has attained this state I described using any kind of drugs?

The reason I'm asking is, that I'm not really sure, if I want to try out dosing more than a normal dose of mushrooms or maybe LSD (if I could get any) and risk losing my sanity.

I've been pondering on the idea of becoming a buddhist monk, but I do like shortcuts and psychedelics could be one of them.
I can understand, that from other peoples point of view it will be easy to say that just become a monk and go the safe way, but if I knew for sure, that psychedelics could "help me" in pretty much the same way, I guess I would take the easy, but a bit risky way.

I've done shrooms (cubensis) twice, but both were about 2g doses, so not really something, that would force you into ego-death, if you are trying to cling to the "usual" reality and afraid to let go, as I was (since I had had a few super frightening trips on smoking too large dose of Spice mix (consisting JWH-018), just recently before trying them shrooms for the first time).


Thanks in advance,
me
 
are you shitting us . are you a teenager ? get a grip - "buddist monk" WTF
 
The_Winner said:
I guess first of all we should agree on at least some sort of definition of enlightenment. I would suggest it to be permanent mindfulness at all times...
Click to expand...

Permanent mindfulness without effort is something of an oxymoron. The point of mindfulness is to be aware. If you no longer need the intention/effort (because your brain is in some sort of perma-mindful-trip mode), then you are no longer being mindful.

Anyway, to answer your question, no.
 
There's some similarities between psychedelic "ego-death" and the enlightenment that Buddhist monks and whatnot speak of, but as I see it they are worlds apart. Enlightenment devoid of any chemical assistance is something that takes a long time and alot of dedication, possibly a lifetime. While these chems will potentially induce this mindstate (temporarily) on someone totally out of tune with the "vibes" monks have been aligning themselves with for decades to reach their enlightened mindstate.

After a trip when one regains his/her ego they will always look back and then try to "integrate" the confusion and crazyness into their habitual lives. This is in direct contrast to a enlightened monk who is permanently in that frame of mind.

Psychedelic drugs can help us learn about ourselves and the world around us by giving us different viewpoints in perspective and etc.. but they are by no means the key to the enlightenment buddhists seek.
 
These things are tools. They allow you to go to states that are phenomenal and radically different from your everyday mindset, which allows you to have experiences. It is the experience and what you take from it, not the drug, which allows you to improve your life. One big dose of mushrooms might rock your world, shred your ego, and give you a new perspective, yes, but it takes a lot of experience to be able to integrate and truly utilize what you may or may not have learned, and even MORE effort and reflection to be able to filter between the insights and the dross.

If I were you, I would spend more time trying to make your life better on your own, instead of relying on chemicals. When you can say you've made some effort and some progress without taking what appears to be the 'quick and easy' path (in reality, it's not, it's simply a different one) I think you might be ready to experiment a bit more. Right now, I think the very nature of your question begs a whole new question: Are these drugs for you yet? I'm not say they are or they are not, I am saying that you should ask the question yourself.

PS Do not expect large doses to do the work for you. Expect to be doing more work.
 
psychedelics offer a glimpse but by no means going through the door. when i was younger i felt psychedelics were the answer, now that im more mature i can see that they are useful tools but can be a hinderance as well. i highly doubt ANYONE has attained permenant enlightenment on a drug.

also, just taking a massive dose of psychedelics does not guarantee this experience, nothing can, but it can help dillude yourself into believing your experiencing something your not.
 
g0to said:
Enlightenment devoid of any chemical assistance is something that takes a long time and alot of dedication, possibly a lifetime.
Click to expand...

Well, having studied zen buddhism, reports of enlightenment indicate that for some it can take a lifetime and for others it can happen relatively quickly.

I think it would be presumptuous of anyone to claim that psychedelics cannot create a "permanent" enlightenment. Recognizing, of course, that "permanent" is a misnomer, as you only need to remain enlightened till you die. So long as drug-induced "temporary" enlightenment lasts until you die, then it is permanent for all intents and purposes.

I do not think that you can just take a high dose of shrooms or LSD and expect to exerience ego death or enlightenment. You may simply have a really, really bad trip. For myself, I experienced ego death on foxy, but I have never heard of anyone else having that result.

As for permanence, my ego death lasted about 3 days. While this is a short time, it is worth noting that it remained well after the drug had worn off. It is also worth nothing that, as a result of this "enlightenment," I became buddhist and vegan. I remained vegan for about a year, but I am still buddhist (well, taoist, though I think the distinction is rather insignificant).

I do not think that one needs to be a buddhist monk to achieve non-drug-induced enlightenment. What's wrong with having a normal job -- doctor, lawyer, peace corp. volunteer, whatever -- and making time for meditation in your off hours? Yoga instructors can be very enlightened, since the practice is quite meditative. Hell, if I had to choose between pursuing enlightenment by being a buddhist monk, or by being a yoga instructor, I'd go yoga instructor in a heart beat. (Lots of hot chicks do yoga, and they are the kind to be into tantric sex stuff -- good times.)

About the only thing I can say is, if you REALLY want to be enlightened, don't have kids. This is from a book on taoism. Apparently, loving something as much as you love your kids makes it impossible (or nearly impossible) to find the objectivity needed for enlightenment. Not sure if this is true, but being a parent, I can kind of see what they mean.

Oh, to get back to the psychedelics, I had been an atheist most of my life, then I came to believe -- very logically -- that there was probably some kind of universal consciousness. I was doing some meditation. It was in the months thereafter that I experienced my ego death. The point is, I think that if you want to get there, psychedelics provide short cuts (however temporary they may be), but it is also useful if you are independently headed in that direction through non-drug means. Also, having experienced that ego-death made me realize that enlightenment DID exist, and so gives me an incentive to meditate more. The bottom line is, will you look harder for the treasure you KNOW is buried in your backyard because you've seen it, or the treasure some people said is buried in your backyard, but you have never seen and are not sure exists? I think a temporary psychedelic ego-death can be a great incentive to pursue sober ego-death.

I also think 'ego-death' can mean different things to different people. Some people talk about their 'ego-death' and it does not sound to me at all like an enlightened state of mind, and I wonder if they mean something different from what I experienced. This is a complicated topic and it can be easy to over-generalize.

~psychoblast~
 
My first acid trip ended years of depression in the course of like 8 hours.

I had been kind of feeling a little down recently, a moderate amount of 2c-i reminded me that there are so many reasons in this life to be happy.
 
you probably won't listen to me but I'm going to say it anyway:

psychedelics provide the path to ego death if you come to find that every thought your having is so fucking crazy that you can just see that THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SUBSTANCE TO ANY OF THEM, BE THEY PROFOUND, TERRIFYING, DIVINE, OR OTHERWISE.

if you realized there was a universal consciousness, in the buddhist sense (I'm speaking zen specifically) you took three steps away from enlightenment and ego-death. if there is no you, who was it that realized?



i've been down the same road you have. i realized, and you probably will as well, that the most important thing you can do is to feel at home on this earth, and there really isn't much to doing that. please drop me a PM if you get the chance we can have some interesting discussion.
 
hobhead said:
are you shitting us . are you a teenager ? get a grip - "buddist monk" WTF
Click to expand...

What an uncalled for response. Please keep responses helpful. The OP is asking a valid question and this is a place where we want people to feel comfortable asking questions.

To answer your question then, I'm going to say no. This is because "enlightenment" (a slippery term - let's use it here to mean awareness of how to live one's life in a more honest and loving way, in touch with one's spirituality) takes work. Temporary enlightenment is certainly possible as a result of a drug-induced experience, but this state of mind will inevitably fade away as time goes by, and without a conscious and daily effort to maintain it, old patterns of thought and behavior will resume.

Permanent enlightenment can definitely be catalyzed by a psychedelic experience, but only if an individual follows it up with daily practice in integrating what was learned into his daily patterns of thought and action. It takes a lot of work, and I don't think you could find a person who didn't slip at least sometimes. But to err is to be human, and part of being "enlightened" is understanding that while still always trying to be the best person you can be. :)

In my experience, a lot of what "enlightenment" is is two things: treating others as you would like to be treated and with love, and living in the moment.
 
Enlightenment is a state of mind that cannot be secured indefinitely. To be permanently disconnected from the ego is called psychosis, not enlightenment. The idea that 'escaping' desire and suffering (as opposed to learning to live as much in harmony as possible given the inevitability of desire and suffering) is the goal has always bothered me about at least western appropriations of Buddhism. Desire is what makes us human. Life's not beautiful without the pain and all that... There really is some truth to those cliches, though. Permanent indifferent bliss sounds more like being zonked out of your mind on opioids all day every day than anything I would identify with a higher state of being. To be human is to love, to hate, to feel... To make mistakes and live in the world. Psychedelics should, in my humble opinion, help give you the confidence to go out and enjoy your life as a wonderful, flawed, egoic human being with all that entails, not to spend your days trying to 'transcend' ordinary reality.

If you're still looking for "easy, little bit risky" ways to accomplish your goals, I don't think you really understand what being a Buddhist monk entails. It has very little to do with eating drugs to see pretty colors and dissolve your ego :) It's a philosophy, a way of understanding yourself and the world, and you shouldn't adopt it just because it's trendy among psychedelic users and leftists to like Buddhism. It's a very specific set of teachings; you should read those teachings and make up your own mind. I have done so and determined that Buddhism, while at places being very consistent with my worldview, is in other places wholly incompatible with my own views and certainly not a belief system I would want to dedicate my life to.

You don't need to be a Buddhist monk to explore your own mind. I call that process "being alive." :)

Final thought: human beings are not static and were never meant to be. I'm inherently suspicious of any plan/idea that involves this sort of permanently resolving all the emotions and difficulties of the ego. If "enlightenment" is to be meaningful, in my opinion it must imply a process, not a single state of mind that you've either reached or haven't. There's a difference between making peace with yourself and trying to reduce yourself to fit some preconceived notion of what a mind at peace should look like. The day I take a drug that makes me permanently tranquil, no longer susceptible to the ups and downs of egoic attachment and human emotion, will probably be the day I fatally overdose something :\
 
Last edited:
Enlightenment is a state of mind that requires effort to maintain. I don't see it possible to be in a state of "permanent enlightenment", purely because one cannot apply this effort while asleep.

As Solistus said, anyone can explore their own mind. All it takes is time. Reading books on the subject also helps; my view of the world was completely revolutionised by Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson. As long as your goal is to understand the mind as clearly as possible, and you earnestly pursue this, you will succeed. Gradually, of course. While there are your little a-ha! moments, the majority of progress toward awakening is subtle and slow. You might not see far down the path ahead, but when you look back you will be amazed at how much ground you've covered.

And on the topic of Ego-death, trust me, it's an experience even seasoned psychonauts approach with caution. It can be anywhere between rapturous and soul-shattering. You might discover that everything you know about yourself is something you hate. You might discover that you've had it wrong all along, and the "second half of your life" aka. the rest of it after this trip right now is going to be nothing but paying off Karmic debt. You might find one of your best friends is the antithesis to your existence, and that this is the end of it purely because he's finished playing this ridiculous game with you. How do I know? :)

The aftermath of Ego-death (or, as in my case, near-Ego-death) can be the most amazing transformation possible. Mine has been more of an epic spiritual journey than I had previously ever thought possible. It is critical to note here that this is neither because of the drug nor the experience. The transformation can only ever be something you instigate yourself after seeing the awesome wonders/horrors of your mind's capabilities. If you don't put in the effort, nothing about your being will ever change. This holds true for everyone everywhere. My transformation has taught me so much in the 6 months after being triggered, but this has been through my own effort every step of the way.

Whatever you do: Do not just aim for a breakthrough dose and expect to be alright afterwards. You will destroy yourself. If you truly want to see the other side, and expect to make sense of it (and yourself, and by extension the reality outside yourself) afterwards, you need to work your way up, and get experience with integrating difficult experiences into your understanding. I'm not saying not to dose higher than you have before, because that is silly. What I'm saying is that if you jump in the deep end before you learn to swim, you will drown. And as much as I would happily dive right in and save you (as I believe everyone deserves chances), I'm not gonna be within running distance.
 
First of all I would like to thank everyone for answering, it's been quite helpful mostly!

solistus said:
Enlightenment is a state of mind that cannot be secured indefinitely. To be permanently disconnected from the ego is called psychosis, not enlightenment.
Click to expand...
There's a big difference between disconnectedness and identification. I believe one can live without identifying him/herself with ones ego, just being aware of its existence and using it only as a tool to solve different problems life brings.
The idea that 'escaping' desire and suffering (as opposed to learning to live as much in harmony as possible given the inevitability of desire and suffering) is the goal has always bothered me about at least western appropriations of Buddhism. Desire is what makes us human. Life's not beautiful without the pain and all that... There really is some truth to those cliches, though. Permanent indifferent bliss sounds more like being zonked out of your mind on opioids all day every day than anything I would identify with a higher state of being. To be human is to love, to hate, to feel...
Click to expand...
I believe it's not about escaping desire and suffering, nor about losing human emotions, but becoming totally aware/mindful of your desires and feelings that make you suffer. "Suffering can exist only if its roots remain in the unconscious of your being. If you go deep down searching and looking for the roots, the moment you become conscious of the roots of suffering, suffering disappears."

I think to be human, you don't need to hate. Hatred arises from not being aware of situations for what they really are/from not understanding.

If you're still looking for "easy, little bit risky" ways to accomplish your goals, I don't think you really understand what being a Buddhist monk entails. It has very little to do with eating drugs to see pretty colors and dissolve your ego :) It's a philosophy, a way of understanding yourself and the world, and you shouldn't adopt it just because it's trendy among psychedelic users and leftists to like Buddhism.
It's a very specific set of teachings; you should read those teachings and make up your own mind. I have done so and determined that Buddhism, while at places being very consistent with my worldview, is in other places wholly incompatible with my own views and certainly not a belief system I would want to dedicate my life to.

You don't need to be a Buddhist monk to explore your own mind. I call that process "being alive." :)
Click to expand...
For some reason you totally misunderstood me. I wasn't implying on becoming a buddhist monk by taking drugs. It's just one of the choices I'm willing to make. I have no relation to people, who follow trends, either.
I'm pretty serious about this and I believe I know quite enough about what being a buddhist monk means (otherwise I couldn't even been pondering about it all).
I know that some of the buddhist disciplines might seem a bit weird at first, but if you get the meaning behind them, it all makes perfect sense.

Final thought: human beings are not static and were never meant to be. I'm inherently suspicious of any plan/idea that involves this sort of permanently resolving all the emotions and difficulties of the ego. If "enlightenment" is to be meaningful, in my opinion it must imply a process, not a single state of mind that you've either reached or haven't. There's a difference between making peace with yourself and trying to reduce yourself to fit some preconceived notion of what a mind at peace should look like. The day I take a drug that makes me permanently tranquil, no longer susceptible to the ups and downs of egoic attachment and human emotion, will probably be the day I fatally overdose something :\
Click to expand...
There is a process, it's about becoming more mindful/aware in everything you do (supposedly even sleep). It's not about losing human emotion. Enlightened beings are the most loving-kind-compassionate I know of.


note: These are merely words and the meaning of them can be understood differently, since we all have different knowledge/understandings.
 
Raw Evil said:
And on the topic of Ego-death, trust me, it's an experience even seasoned psychonauts approach with caution. It can be anywhere between rapturous and soul-shattering. You might discover that everything you know about yourself is something you hate. You might discover that you've had it wrong all along, and the "second half of your life" aka. the rest of it after this trip right now is going to be nothing but paying off Karmic debt. You might find one of your best friends is the antithesis to your existence, and that this is the end of it purely because he's finished playing this ridiculous game with you. How do I know? :)
Click to expand...
Actually I have read your trip report before. As I said, I've read lots of trip reports :). About discovering stuff about friends... well, it was years back when we smoked pot with a few friends, when I realized how big of an ego one of my friends has (back at that time I just thought he's a "bad person" or something along those lines). It pretty much changed my attitude towards him till this day, tho.
I doubt I would discover something new specifically about "myself", since I have thought about this way too much already.

Also I've had a few most frightening trips on JWH-018 (which are pretty usual on bigger doses of JWH-018 and have been described as the most mind terrorizing trips that one has had, by people who have done all kinds of doses of different psychedelic drugs), which made me doubt about the properties of the conventional reality, even after the trips were over for a longer period of time.

I think I experienced ego-death or just near ego-death for a short duration, as I was lying on a bed, having CEVs of some round spiral like things, feeling I could be stuck in that state forever and that this mental state I was in, seemed to be the true meaning of existence - had forgot about my physical body and the possibility of just opening my eyes. Also there was aphex twin - windowlicker playing (the last part of the song, which is a bit terrorizing to the mind even sober), which I didn't perceive as music, but as just something that synchronized with everything that was in that state. It's hard to put into words exactly, tho and I guess the details aren't even that important.
Anyways, if you're interested, there are many trip reports on JWH-018, which I can relate to somewhat. Going to link two - (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=7769818&postcount=1 & http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=8335395&postcount=13)
 
Oh, and btw, the reason to all this is that, I consider myself also to be very ego-driven, which is negatively affecting my life in a way that would be unimaginable to most.
I believe just constantly thinking and trying to understand everything (I've done this for years) won't get me anywhere.
There's no end on the path of desiring to understand. I know it can sound a bit paradoxical to buddhism, which strives to being mindful of everything, but I think there is a difference in desiring to understand everything and being mindful of the nature of anything, which a moment brings.
 
Last edited:
Well, first off, in plain english, the words "permanent" and "drug-induced" don't belong in the same sentence. If something is drug-induced, then therefore, by the laws of human metabolism and biochemistry, it is also therefore temporary.

The question of enlightenment, of course, is something different altogether from any question about ... well, basically anything else, really. My only advice to you on attaining enlightenment is to have fun in the process, because I personally think it's impossible otherwise.
 
Pans-Advocate said:
Well, first off, in plain english, the words "permanent" and "drug-induced" don't belong in the same sentence. If something is drug-induced, then therefore, by the laws of human metabolism and biochemistry, it is also therefore temporary.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't you think having an experience, which makes you realize something, would stay with you (even for your whole lifetime, if profound enough)? It's not like an experience is a chemical that would be spat out by your metabolism after being processed.
 
No, but your memory of the experience is not drug-induced, and it is your memory of the experience (which, of course, is subject to change according to new experiences) that actually sticks with you, not the experience itself. No experience is actually eternal, or even close ... in fact they are all the opposite, they are all immediately transient. Experiences pass into memory literally instantaneously (because after precisely one instant you are having a slightly new, slightly different experience) and once they become memory they are no longer "experience" in the strict present-tense form of the term.

Does that make sense?
 
I was referring to the realization staying with you, not the experience itself, since obviously experiences are just experiences, which can only live inside our memories. Sorry for expressing myself bad.
Drugs can induce an experience, which in turn can induce a realization (sometimes delusions, other times profound understandings) was my point.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top