Is drug induced permanent enlightenment possible?

[swilow]

Enlightenment is.

 

[medical_meccanica]

I could be wrong, but maybe you just didn't really get to the roots, when thinking you did? If one would see the true roots of his suffering (while being mindful), one could just surrender to what is and really be "done with it casually", since there's probably nothing you can think of, that could fix it (otherwise you would be fixing it, instead of telling yourself a story of how bad/sad something in your life is).
I'm not saying I can do that often and if I could, this thread probably wouldn't exist, but I do have experienced it.
Staying mindful is hard work -_-
Maybe you could give us an example of some of those experiences? It doesn't even have to be true for you, just something you could relate to.

Btw, an interesting fact I have discovered a long time ago I haven't mentioned in this thread yet - it seems that cannabis helps me stay more mindful, sadly only for the duration of high.

I think what bothers me about that ideal is that it seems to base emotion on logic. It seems to say: if you can completely understand how something has come to be then it will no longer be upsetting. For me, this is just not the case. I can't really simplify one of my experiences into a short form, but I've had moments where I've realised the true origin of my sadness and felt 'aha!' and been able to move on from that sadness, but it has not been a casual, emotionless thing. I think feelings can be separate from knowledge.

I think that some people are more predisposed to ask 'why,' (which can be inspiring or painful) and which when applied to any situation can be regressed back and back and back beyond anything humans can know. Maybe during psychedelic induced ego-death someone might be able to feel that they have escaped from this deep quest for the Answer by figuring it out, or maybe they have temporarily stepped out from the aspect of their mind which houses any feelings of happiness or sadness.

My intuition tells me that to stay in that way permanently (whether it is possible or not) would mean either living outside that shell of personality and not experiencing emotions, or living in a constant analysis of one's own emotions. Although even after writing that I don't think emotions can be analysed away, only repressed or realised and experienced.

 

[The_Winner]

My intuition tells me that to stay in that way permanently (whether it is possible or not) would mean either living outside that shell of personality and not experiencing emotions, or living in a constant analysis of one's own emotions. Although even after writing that I don't think emotions can be analysed away, only repressed or realised and experienced.

Again, my words seem to have been not very good at transferring my thoughts. I'll give it another try.
And thinking back, maybe that quote I pasted wasn't the best one, since it can be quite misleading, it seems.

If you can become aware of your ego, the "thing inside you", that likes to attach to different kind of thoughts (yes, they are just thoughts) or memories, which can cause suffering, you can see it for what it is and it will subside.

You aren't your ego, you are the awareness. The ego is just a pile of thoughts (mostly repeated and useless ones).
It doesn't mean you become emotionless or somehow detached, you can still feel everything the same, it's just that you become aware of what is and you can accept it, since there's nothing else you can really do, than accept. Fighting what is, brings the suffering.
I know, it can sound too easy to be true, but it's hard to say constantly aware, if you haven't practiced it, since we've all been raised to identify ourselves with our egos and we do it all the time.

I suggest you to check out the youtube urls I linked to solistus a few posts back, in which the same thing is explained much more clear.

 

[alantis360]

Enlightenment is a state of mind that requires effort to maintain. I don't see it possible to be in a state of "permanent enlightenment", purely because one cannot apply this effort while asleep.

As Solistus said, anyone can explore their own mind. All it takes is time. Reading books on the subject also helps; my view of the world was completely revolutionised by Prometheus Rising by Robert Anton Wilson. As long as your goal is to understand the mind as clearly as possible, and you earnestly pursue this, you will succeed. Gradually, of course. While there are your little a-ha! moments, the majority of progress toward awakening is subtle and slow. You might not see far down the path ahead, but when you look back you will be amazed at how much ground you've covered.

And on the topic of Ego-death, trust me, it's an experience even seasoned psychonauts approach with caution. It can be anywhere between rapturous and soul-shattering. You might discover that everything you know about yourself is something you hate. You might discover that you've had it wrong all along, and the "second half of your life" aka. the rest of it after this trip right now is going to be nothing but paying off Karmic debt. You might find one of your best friends is the antithesis to your existence, and that this is the end of it purely because he's finished playing this ridiculous game with you. How do I know?

The aftermath of Ego-death (or, as in my case, near-Ego-death) can be the most amazing transformation possible. Mine has been more of an epic spiritual journey than I had previously ever thought possible. It is critical to note here that this is neither because of the drug nor the experience. The transformation can only ever be something you instigate yourself after seeing the awesome wonders/horrors of your mind's capabilities. If you don't put in the effort, nothing about your being will ever change. This holds true for everyone everywhere. My transformation has taught me so much in the 6 months after being triggered, but this has been through my own effort every step of the way.

Whatever you do: Do not just aim for a breakthrough dose and expect to be alright afterwards. You will destroy yourself. If you truly want to see the other side, and expect to make sense of it (and yourself, and by extension the reality outside yourself) afterwards, you need to work your way up, and get experience with integrating difficult experiences into your understanding. I'm not saying not to dose higher than you have before, because that is silly. What I'm saying is that if you jump in the deep end before you learn to swim, you will drown. And as much as I would happily dive right in and save you (as I believe everyone deserves chances), I'm not gonna be within running distance.

Holy shit dude your post just blew my mind. Im reading your trip report right now.

 

[eldesperado]

"No, love for me is an extremely violent act, again this structure of imbalance: I pick out one element, a fragile individual person, and say, 'I love you more than anything else.' In this strictly formal sense, love is evil.""

Nietzsche says likewise that "Love of ONE is barbarism; for it is exercised at the expense of all others. The love of God, too"

Of course, love is beyond good and evil

"I think Buddhism contains within it a predisposition against that which is. The Boddhisatva is the perfect model of ressentiment and a life of reactivity as Nietzsche would put it; all of life, all that is, is reduced to a trap of suffering and the goal becomes to escape it."

This actually is not right. Nietzsche thinks Buddhism is beyond this type of ressentiment.



"Not through hostility does hostility end; through friendship does hostility end": this stands at the beginning of Buddha's teaching this is not the voice of morality, but of physiology. Resentment born of weakness is harmful to no one more than to the weak man himself-conversely, with a fundamentally rich nature, resentment is a superfluous feeling, which, if one remains master of it, is almost a proof of riches"(Ecce Homo Wise 6)


Regarding the original post, I do not think permanent enlightenment is possible through psychedelics... at best, you'll "realize" that the continued use of psychedelics impedes real progress. However, this realization is an important one, and one you might not see it unless you actually indulge yourself with drugs.

"Enlightenment" for lack of a better word, is really not much more than a healthy and balanced way of cultivating tension, controlling, and then releasing that tension, through whatever sorts of patterns you discover that are specific to you... Buddhism fails, imo, because the "way" to enlightenment is prescribed by the paths of others, so can never truly be called "enlightenment." .... of course, I'm sure they address this issue, no way as way, etc etc... but the fact is you are still heading toward a certain destination, "nirvana," by way of their system... even if this system allows you to realize that there are no "systems." This, of course, is still a system, albeit a very sophisticated one.

OK, you're gonna figure it out all on your own then. What then becomes important is what you actually do and what you actually value, and how comfortable you are with what you do, how much energy you can commit to whatever it is you value... you need to be able to commit all your energy and find peace with that commitment.

You want "enlightenment" but what does that REALLY entail, physically? ... continuous focus and meditation... working toward some "ideal," right? The whole time you're effectively helping no one but yourself, sitting somewhere by yourself or with others doing the same thing, just 'contemplating"...while this type of existence is maybe more noble than going out on the weekend and just trying to get laid or whatever, it is by no means the highest way to live life... Although few people are cut out for this type of ascetic life... if you want to take a "short cut" already, it's already saying alot... you seem to be wanting something "given" and "passive," whereas being mindful is something that takes full focus and all your active energy, yet as "tiring" as this process is, part of "enlightenment" is accepting and rejoicing in the fact that it requires all your energy, realizing that putting all your energy into it is necessary, and that you should NOT live any other way.

You should get involved with some sort of sport and commit all your energy to it, embrace the "suck" as they say, become mindful of your body...in my opinion this is much more beneficial than going to some Buddhist temple... to say that enlightenment is all "mental" and not physical is truly misguided... it's the effort of the WHOLE person...it is the continuous process exhaustion and exertion of BOTH the mental and the physical while being mindful and focused, and feeling complete, feeling purpose in this cycle of energy... you NEED to test the limits of your body and your mind, if you want reach anything worthwhile....if for any of reason, psychedelics are bad(in a permanent continuous, habitual sort of way at least) because they take away from the possibilities of the body... remember, psychedelics aren't exactly healthy for you.

 

[B9]

Psychedelics will never enlighten you. Everything they produce is quite the opposite of enlightenment. Maybe not if its a one time "aha!" and then leave it alone type thing, but when you keep using them it typically becomes mental masturbation. Enlightenment is totally devoid of any complex philosophies. The act of analyzing and picking at ideas goes against it.

I'd tend to agree however there are ( sometimes) moments of enlightement which can be acted upon but it's wise to not rely on the drugs to produce the results of your insights for you because that does not compute.
But yeah basically it's down to putting things into practice in the real world without having to be aided by drugs to do so.

 

[daylightvanish]

Drug enduced enlightenment is proven with exception

I'm a living walking talking proof that the use of MDMA, meditation, unconditional love and asking the divine to be educated caused me to become enlightened.

This is factual and i experience pure bliss and grace 24/7.

Conclusion: Psychedelic drugs manually open the doorway for the divine into your body and kick-starts the awakening process and the rest is up to you to reach enlightenment.

 

[Changed]

as somebody that has spent hundreds of hours meditating: no.

we're all already enlightened, there is not need for drugs or effort. just open your eyes and you'll see...

 

[SecondPull]

^Agree with this.

Although, it was a particularly frightening trip experience that catalyzed my meditation practice and the things that have followed. I think drugs can 'open' you if you're ready, much the same way a near-death experience or something similar can, but the path is yours to walk

OP, I suggest you read Chogyam Trungpa's 'Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism.' The way you're conceptualizing enlightenment is not wrong, per se, but so filtered by your preconceptions and ego that you (nor I) really have any idea what it is.

 

[atara]

nothing is permanent

 

[surf.shaman]

nothing is permanent

QFT
exactly spot on.

 

[Tunnelfission]

It's silly to suppose that you from the outside can judge another persons level of enlightenment. It's ENTIRELY subjective and the context must be self relevant per person.

 

[Solipsis]

That is a very good point. In my own experience though, trips can show you a lot of doors but you yourself have to walk through them. People like Krishnamurti or Adyashanti who come off as quite enlightened to me still seem to think that it requires and is sustaining mindfulness at the same time - a trip is not sustaining and I think many of us have felt the fleeting effect eventually, the feeling that it is so much harder to keep it up after the trip has ended.

I think I learned a lot from tripping and had great insights, but the will to be mindful really lies within yourself so it becomes almost irrelevant what these drugs do. Still I am curious about thumbprints and in what respect you can feel high for years to come or even until you die, I am curious about if that feeling is a sustained help to be mindful by having the doors of perception blast open? I am sure it is not easy, but I cannot dismiss the possibility that something like that may make it less confusing to stay on the 'path'.

It is such a strange feeling, keeping on or wandering off of the path. In myself it feels like a balance between heart and mind, like things flow freely when I pay attention to remain attentive to what is actually good for me and not what is fun, easy and joyful. My point is that the more I wander off of the path the more of a conflict there exists between what I do and what I feel I owe myself to do what is good for me... and how well I can meditate completely depends on that balance.

I am sorry to say I have lost it when I got into a very difficult phase in my life and I also think that stopping taking acid has not helped. Doing it every so often was a good reminder, though what is much much more helpful is frequently paying attention and doing the work yourself to stay mindful.

 

[Changed]

It is such a strange feeling, keeping on or wandering off of the path. In myself it feels like a balance between heart and mind, like things flow freely when I pay attention to remain attentive to what is actually good for me and not what is fun, easy and joyful. My point is that the more I wander off of the path the more of a conflict there exists between what I do and what I feel I owe myself to do what is good for me... and how well I can meditate completely depends on that balance.

I am sorry to say I have lost it when I got into a very difficult phase in my life and I also think that stopping taking acid has not helped. Doing it every so often was a good reminder, though what is much much more helpful is frequently paying attention and doing the work yourself to stay mindful.

Great post...

As far as acid use: it took one bad trip for me to realize that I should stop taking psychedelics. I'll be forever grateful for what path they started me on (Buddhism, meditation, spiritually in general), but I feel as if I'm just getting back to a normal state of mind after not taking any in the past year.

I think it is easier to maintain a semblance of spirituality when you do give up all drugs. Yes, doing LSD or mushrooms or mescaline gives you that instant-boost of "satori," but once you come down from that, you're right back where you were. Once you realize that you don't need drugs to feel enlightened, things become much easier.

 

[TheAppleCore]

I think it is easier to maintain a semblance of spirituality when you do give up all drugs.

Not doubting what you're saying, but I don't think this is quite true for me. Drugs give me something totally different than what I can get via natural practices like meditation. They're both important...

I might change my mind in the future, but I think DMT / ayahuasca will always be the exception. Nothing can possibly fulfill that role.

 

[YellowNikes]

Wouldn't you think having an experience, which makes you realize something, would stay with you (even for your whole lifetime, if profound enough)? It's not like an experience is a chemical that would be spat out by your metabolism after being processed.

while iam not a buddhist i believe that they say that life is ever changing and moving, mush like a river, thus there is no permanence anyway and by trying to grasp on to that you are defeating yourself. You must let go.

 

[nearjat]

I think it's a little silly to chase the enlightenment carrot your whole life. I'd give a lot more respect to anyone that can just remain mindful of himself, and enjoy life healthily while not hurting anyone. Hierarchy fucks everything up.

 

[TheAppleCore]

^ Pointless if you're doing it to reach the top of a hierarchy for sure, but I guess you could say that I "chase the enlightenment carrot", but do so simply because I have a love of wisdom. Or, perceived wisdom. LOL.

 

[nearjat]

^ Pointless if you're doing it to reach the top of a hierarchy for sure, but I guess you could say that I "chase the enlightenment carrot", but do so simply because I have a love of wisdom. Or, perceived wisdom. LOL.

Could you honestly say that this perceived wisdom doesn't give you at least some feeling of superiority to people that haven't "been there"? Because I'm speaking as a person who used to be really into this kinda thing and I definitely did. It wasn't a conscious thing at all, just an attitude I approached situations with.

My view isn't catch all or anything, not claiming to know you or anything.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Yes, actually, I do feel superior to those that don't have as deep a "wisdom" or spirituality as I.

Because it seems that one sees so much more beauty and richness in the world if seen through the lens of a spirituality developed over a lifetime.

Those who don't seek answers to these fundamental questions are, quite simply, missing out on a great adventure.

I don't seek wisdom for the feeling of superiority at all, though. In fact, I strongly dislike it. I wish more people seemed to enjoy this process as much as I do.