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Is drug induced permanent enlightenment possible?

I must add that I feel peculiarly close to this "enlightenment" too, although my rational self says, "far from it, monkey boy".

I can almost taste it. The root of Everything.

This seems to be one of my idiosyncrasies. Most people seem to see reality as a great mystery. I see it as something that I've got a firm intuitive grasp of.



A question: why do people seek "enlightenment"? From an anthropological perspective. Looking at humanity as a species, perched on one tiny twig of the great flourishing tree of life (as Dawkins would say)...? It is absolutely one of the strangest and most unique behaviors among all the animals on the earth. You would never expect things like creatures that sit and meditate to arise from natural selection.
 
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Yeah you sound like your at mentally where I was a couple years ago. I guess it just stopped working for me after some serious shit went down in my life that made me question my true grasp on whats "true". I'm okay with my uncertainty, not that I'm not curious. I just no longer find psychedelics and related mental exercises to be beneficial source of information for me any longer. Not something I can rely on.
 
^ So, just out of honest curiosity, in what way do you believe to benefit from something like MXE? If not acquisition of knowledge.


I'm not saying that enlightenment is the only reason I take psyches, by the way. Far from it. I'm just curious about your own motives.
 
first psychs I ever did, I did a giant tab of good LSD, and a week later around an 8th of mushrooms. it triggered GAD, and I now often wake up having to vomit for hours on end, my apetite is non existant. my brain hasnt been the same since then, in an enlightenment/reality sort of way, i no longer feel im in the real world. learned to live with it.
 
^ I know this post is going to piss you off if you're being honest.

But I can't possibly believe that. You did one tab of acid, and apparently you were fine because you went ahead and did another psychedelic drug the very next week, and ate an eighth of mushrooms, and instantly it just totally ravaged your body and soul and now you're vomiting every morning for hours on end. Mushrooms don't do that. They make you trip.


You're going to have to write more than three sentences ridden with grammatical errors if you want to convince me of the true dangers of the evil Mushroom.
 
Interesting question and interesting replies. One can see the various spiritualities here in PD!

This being said, here's an answer to the OP, despite being vague about what he think is enlightenment: In the first place nothing is permanent, not even Nirvana, yes, even traditional Nirvana- thousands of hours of meditation, Bodhi Tree and what not - The Nirvanic Bliss, if you pardon my expression, is finite in time. What happens next is the real deal. How do you cope and integrate the experience? Chances are that if you spent your lifetime meditating you may in fact integrate it and truly become enlightened. If you did not, or simply are not fit to it, you will not understand it and your life will continue to be the same.

Now, effective Psychedelic Experiences (which do not happen a lot, but they happen fairly reliably and with a variety of substances) are indistinguishable from Nirvanic bliss (flame me at will on this). However with a limited grasp on life's most philosophical issues, the Deep Meaning of the experience will not blossom, and enlightenment will be lost. Thus 99.99% of the times no one will get it. So, the thing is that there are no shortcuts. You will have to have a life dedicated to the most central questions of existence. When these questions have become part of your DNA and echoing in your phenotype, a real Psychedelic Experience will trigger Nirvana and Enlightenment Is Possible.
 
We're using terms very differently, and to be honest I do not appreciate your condescending tone, assuming that whenever we disagree or don't understand one another it's because I lack the perfect understanding of Buddhism you claim to have. The way you are using terms like 'ego' is not at all the way I deploy them from an ontological/philosophic perspective. Distinguishing between conscious awareness of your actions and "ego-induced" negative thoughts is, by my use of the terms, a nonsensical distinction.

I have written probable hundreds of pages of my thoughts on identity and ego here. If you are that interested in my views, page through my history. I'm a Lacanian, so having a shallow back-and-forth discussion about terms we're not even defining in the same way is not going to be at all productive. Better yet, read The Sublime Object of Ideology and The Ticklish Subject, both by Slavoj Zizek.

Other people claiming ego death on psychedelics are also not using 'ego' the way you are. You're misinterpreting them greatly, it sounds like, which led to this post conflating Buddhism with tripping. Ego death means losing sense of yourself as a distinct, conscious individual - not remaining conscious but being somehow 'above' petty 'ego-induced' issues. It's a radically different way of being-in-the-world.

I know I'm in the minority in this hippie love fest of a board for thinking anger, hate and even violence are natural and productive parts of human existence. Universal love is an ideological falsehood, in my opinion; for love to be meaningful, it cannot by its very nature be universal. To quote Zizek: "I've always been disgusted by this notion of oh, I love the world. I don't like the world. I'm somewhere between indifferent to the world or I hate it. All of reality, it just is. It's stupid. It's out there. I don't care about it. No, love for me is an extremely violent act, again this structure of imbalance: I pick out one element, a fragile individual person, and say, 'I love you more than anything else.' In this strictly formal sense, love is evil."

At any rate... to sum it up, I'm a psychoanalytic nihilist. I have very precise views about the nature of the ego based on the theories of Lacan et al, and I believe the 'goal' of philosophy/theology/life itself is to find ways to see beauty in the world rather than ugliness. I think Buddhism contains within it a predisposition against that which is. The Boddhisatva is the perfect model of ressentiment and a life of reactivity as Nietzsche would put it; all of life, all that is, is reduced to a trap of suffering and the goal becomes to escape it. Those who escape this cycle can do the ultimate selfless good of returning to the world of the living even when they could be "free" from it, to help "free" others by bringing them to enlightenment. Any religion or philosophy that values some transcendental realm, whether it be the infinite Oneness of nirvana or the harps-and-clouds of Christian heaven, I view with suspicion. There is value in some Buddhist teachings, but the way Buddhist monks and monastic sects in particular view the path to enlightenment bothers me deeply.

It's not about how attached you are to modern culture. It's about how attached you are to *living in the world.* "Monk" has a very precise meaning. If what you mean is that you plan to study Buddhism under Buddhist teachers and monks as part of a personal journey or exploration, that's great, but that's not at all what becoming a monk means. Sure, you *can* choose to leave after you join, but it's not something you plan to do temporarily. It's a huge commitment to dedicate your life to an ideology.

Philosophy, spirituality, religion.... Call it what you will, it's productive if and only if it helps people live better, happier lives. If you have to abandon your 'normal' life to follow a given philosophy or spiritual code, in my eyes that destroys any potential value that system may have otherwise possessed. If there is some state of being called 'enlightenment' that is possible and desirable to reach, I don't think you have to live on a monastery or abandon personal property to get there.

Samsara is also a deeply disturbing concept to me. It's absolutely the wrong relationship to the pleasure principle to simply demonize the pursuit of pleasure as the source of all wrong and suffering. Lacanian theory offers me a much more useful explanation of the pleasure principle, how it works structurally, and how one can adapt their lives around it.

The very idea that enlightenment is something you either attain or don't is also a big problem for me, if I haven't made that clear enough already. It's not an end goal to reach. If the concept of enlightenment is meaningful at all, in my mind it has to be a process, a way of living life, not a static state you either reach and then remain at or never reach. Speaking of identity, it really sounds like you're fetishizing this identity-position of "enlightened Buddhist monk" in a problematic way, but that's a discussion for another time.

I'm happy to answer any specific questions but if you want to "debate Buddhism" with me, please take it to PM. I've gone through this whole routine a billion times on here and it's getting old even for me, so I can only imagine how sick the other regulars must be of me rambling about Lacan ;)

Superb post.

If only more people would engage with Lacan...
 
Can enlightenment result from taking drugs?
Very interesting question, and one I wrestled with quite a bit when younger.
I came to the conclusion, after much research, including high doses of LSD, mushrooms, and ayahuasca, that drugs can be enlightening, but not result in true "enlightenment", if you see what I mean.
This is the same conclusion reached by Leary and his crowd, who tried to achieve enlightenment through taking higher and higher doses of LSD. Once, Ram Dass and others shut themselves up in a bowling alley and took more and more LSD for a week, thinking that they would finally become permanently enlightened. Needless to say, they failed. (Story is from Storming Heaven: LSD and the American Dream).
 
And then Ram Dass gave up drugs, centered his life around spirituality and meditation, and is still spreading a positive message today. Leary, on the other hand, was in and out of prison and probably went a little bit insane, and died of cancer 14 years ago.

Not conclusive for the purposes of this thread, but worth mentioning based on victor's post...
 
There's no such thing as enlightenment. It's just a scam so a load of monks can make a living in the monastery. Everyone I've ever read who claimed to be enlightened turned out to be a complete fucking arsehole. Read about the highly enlightened Tibetan buddhist monks cutting their slaves hands off and the Dalai Lama running out of Tibet with all the gold he could carry for an example of how the so-called "enlightened" behave.
 
And then Ram Dass gave up drugs, centered his life around spirituality and meditation, and is still spreading a positive message today. Leary, on the other hand, was in and out of prison and probably went a little bit insane, and died of cancer 14 years ago.

Not conclusive for the purposes of this thread, but worth mentioning based on victor's post...

That's pretty harsh. Leary didn't touch drugs till he was 40 when his wife committed suicide on his birthday. That's a heavy burden for any man to carry. He wasn't sent to prison because he hurt anyone, Leary was persecuted for years because he made a stand which annoyed Richard Nixon. And surely anyone can be unlucky enough to get cancer

You could just as easily say Ram Dass followed Leary blindly, then made up a load of bullshit about his Hindu "master" eating a thousand gamma of LSD and not feeling anything (His master palmed the LSD tablets according to a more streetwise guy who was present) then a few years later Ram had a stroke and ended up in a wheelchair.

But I don't dislike Ram Dass, although I think he was responsible for spreading a lot of bullshit about "Don't take psychedelics, follow Hinduism - this corrupt, repellant religion that seperates society into the good and the untouchables because obviously treating poor people like shit is the true way to enlightenment)
 
There's nothing hateful about the truth. Are you upset because I'm not saying buddhist monks are all like Mr Miyagi?
 
^ LOL. I've learned to mentally filter out the constant stream of insults and swearing when reading Ismene's posts. You'll find some of them surprisingly insightful, if you look beneath the surface of internet-Tourette's. :D
 
Could I express it in a slightly less bitter and disillusioned way do you think Apple? :)

Still not sure what was so hateful about those posts, I'm being sympathetic to Leary and Ram Dass and just mentioning a couple of negatives about Buddhism and Hinduism. The untouchables part of Hinduism is enough to give anyone second thoughts about it as a path to enlightenment.
 
^ So, just out of honest curiosity, in what way do you believe to benefit from something like MXE? If not acquisition of knowledge.


I'm not saying that enlightenment is the only reason I take psyches, by the way. Far from it. I'm just curious about your own motives.

My motives are fun, but yeah I think I benefited from that. Because it broke me out of some obsessive thought patterns that were keeping me from enjoying life. I'm not more "in tune" with the universe or anything. It's a very tangible change in how I think.
 
long thread, sorry, no time to read it
my comment :

everyone choses his own definition of enlightenment
i'll answer with mine in mind

i have reached enligthenment on psychedelics (don't care about what the reader thinks or if s/he thinks i'm bragging, i did)


am i permanently in the state i was in during these experiences?
no, but i recall it well


do i still accept, understand / feel and live with the lessons that i learned through them
yes
yes
and yes
 
Could I express it in a slightly less bitter and disillusioned way do you think Apple? :)

Still not sure what was so hateful about those posts, I'm being sympathetic to Leary and Ram Dass and just mentioning a couple of negatives about Buddhism and Hinduism. The untouchables part of Hinduism is enough to give anyone second thoughts about it as a path to enlightenment.

It's just bizarre to me that you level this incredible, comprehensive judgment of a philosophy based on the actions of individuals who clearly weren't even following the tenets of their own faith, and then insult anyone who buys into the message.

It's literal-minded to an almost autistic degree.
 
Which tenet are you talking about? The concept of their being a class of people known as the untouchables who are worthless is a pretty fundamental tenet of Hinduism. I don't think philosophies like that should be taken seriously.

I'm not saying there can't be good buddhists or good Hindus but no more than there are good athiests or good people who take LSD. Studying the "Hindu path" is no more likely to make you enlightened that not studying it. The most enlightened person I've ever met was an old woman who knew my grandmother. She'd never read a buddhist book in her life.
 
Enlightenment to me is experiencing pure happiness, love, or success with absolute clarity.

It's a fleeting thing. Sometimes life sucks.
 
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