BlackMagic24
Bluelighter
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- Jul 31, 2001
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I have always wondered if it was possible to IV marijuana. Good luck with it PhreeX
Injecting marijuanja
- Thread starter PhreeX
- Start date
PlurredChemistry
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2001
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Yo Phreex!
After you've isolated the THC, you still have the problem of injecting it. You'll probably wanna dissolve it into something, but hte problem is THC is an organic molecule and only will dissolve into other organic solvents. Since there are very few organic solvents that you;d wanna inject i reccomend that you turn your THC into its salt.
You can do this by deprotonating the alcohol group. You need a fairly strong base to do this. I'd reccomend using sodium ethoxide (NaOC2H5) for 2 reasons.
First its fairly easy to get yer hands on (or to make - just add sodium to ethanol - but very carefully!!)
Second - the product of this reaction will be the THC salt (which can be dissolved in water) and ethanol which can be safely injected into yer body. So you won't hafta do any purification...
~Mateo~
After you've isolated the THC, you still have the problem of injecting it. You'll probably wanna dissolve it into something, but hte problem is THC is an organic molecule and only will dissolve into other organic solvents. Since there are very few organic solvents that you;d wanna inject i reccomend that you turn your THC into its salt.
You can do this by deprotonating the alcohol group. You need a fairly strong base to do this. I'd reccomend using sodium ethoxide (NaOC2H5) for 2 reasons.
First its fairly easy to get yer hands on (or to make - just add sodium to ethanol - but very carefully!!)
Second - the product of this reaction will be the THC salt (which can be dissolved in water) and ethanol which can be safely injected into yer body. So you won't hafta do any purification...
~Mateo~
now, while i know too little about chemistry, and my mind has been rotted, i'll see if i can give any worthwhile information.
some of the times i have eaten said hash oil(made from a butane extraction), i put a few drops in olive oil, and heated, dissolving the drug completely in the oil, then consumed.
i doubt a butane extraction yeilds a pure enough chemical to inject, but i am sure i could be purified more.
i recall reading somewhere that steralized(i cant spell) oil is used to carry some non water soluble drugs for IM injections, i think it was an antipsycotic, then again i could have dreamed it. **woops, vibr8tor said it - haldol**
if you need to grind up the pot into a powder you want it as dry as possible or crushable another way. dry ice or liquid nitrogen would do this by freezing well.
[This message has been edited by stp1993 (edited 12 August 2001).]
some of the times i have eaten said hash oil(made from a butane extraction), i put a few drops in olive oil, and heated, dissolving the drug completely in the oil, then consumed.
i doubt a butane extraction yeilds a pure enough chemical to inject, but i am sure i could be purified more.
i recall reading somewhere that steralized(i cant spell) oil is used to carry some non water soluble drugs for IM injections, i think it was an antipsycotic, then again i could have dreamed it. **woops, vibr8tor said it - haldol**
if you need to grind up the pot into a powder you want it as dry as possible or crushable another way. dry ice or liquid nitrogen would do this by freezing well.
[This message has been edited by stp1993 (edited 12 August 2001).]
Hey phreex if u need to use any kind of oil i would use sesame oil..ive injected sesame oil numerous times with my roids...it dilutes the solutuin and lowers the benzyl acl content as it doesnt burn as much...why not use some nor50 as an oil...deca durabolin...if u can indeed use it hit me up ill shoot some yer way
If you don't end up fucking yourself over sideways, make sure you post the FAQ here
Hell, seeing a FAQ posted by PhreeX with the word "Marijuana" in the title would be enough to make my day.
Might wanna really watch your dose though. Too much could be bad news...sure, you won't die, but you will be in hell for a LONG time.
Might wanna really watch your dose though. Too much could be bad news...sure, you won't die, but you will be in hell for a LONG time.
Well, I tried with water - stupid me, we ALL KNOW that THC is NOT soulable in water... so as I type this, I am refluxing with something a little stronger - methylene chloride... all I have to do is isolate the THC in an inorganic solvent (such as the DCM) and from there I can simply distill it till I get something I can work with...
If the methylene chloride doesnt work, I am going for something organic - possibly sesame oil as the purification wouldn't be that involved (they use it for injectables as-is) .. but I don't know how that would work for a reflux (as I use peanut oil for my bath in which my boiling flask sits) ...
Sodium ethoxide - got any more info on this? I have about a gallon of Ethonal and a few ounces of sodium - I will look up the procedure for making the ethoxide, but do you have the route from there?
Right now, my biggest problem is getting the THC to disolve into SOMETHING .. I dont care WHAT, as I wont be injecting this, I can puill it from whatever I get it it, to someone I can work with..
I was hoping to avoing any type of chromatography setup as I don't have the cash... I figgured I could just distill and seperate to accomplish this...
So, for thoser keeping track -
Reflux with water - BUST!
I am now giving it a go with some DCM, I will post the details as it's finished....
The marijuana I am using is called "Krippy", and eventhough I hate marijuana, this is some GOOD LOOKING WEED!
Oh yeah, it was to "damp" or "sticky" to grind in my Mr. Coffee Grinder of Science, so I just used a razor and slized the "stem" (it want leaves, it was like a big gree pipe cleaner of sorts) ...
If I can't get it bangable, I might come up wioth a good oral solution of marijuana... think of the fun you could have.... spray a friends car or strangers luggage with it, watch as the drug dogs go ape shit!
Stay tuned!
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# unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep
If the methylene chloride doesnt work, I am going for something organic - possibly sesame oil as the purification wouldn't be that involved (they use it for injectables as-is) .. but I don't know how that would work for a reflux (as I use peanut oil for my bath in which my boiling flask sits) ...
Sodium ethoxide - got any more info on this? I have about a gallon of Ethonal and a few ounces of sodium - I will look up the procedure for making the ethoxide, but do you have the route from there?
Right now, my biggest problem is getting the THC to disolve into SOMETHING .. I dont care WHAT, as I wont be injecting this, I can puill it from whatever I get it it, to someone I can work with..
I was hoping to avoing any type of chromatography setup as I don't have the cash... I figgured I could just distill and seperate to accomplish this...
So, for thoser keeping track -
Reflux with water - BUST!
I am now giving it a go with some DCM, I will post the details as it's finished....
The marijuana I am using is called "Krippy", and eventhough I hate marijuana, this is some GOOD LOOKING WEED!
Oh yeah, it was to "damp" or "sticky" to grind in my Mr. Coffee Grinder of Science, so I just used a razor and slized the "stem" (it want leaves, it was like a big gree pipe cleaner of sorts) ...
If I can't get it bangable, I might come up wioth a good oral solution of marijuana... think of the fun you could have.... spray a friends car or strangers luggage with it, watch as the drug dogs go ape shit!
Stay tuned!
------------------
# unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep
try everclear or something, that should do the trick. the alcohol should extract the THC. butane also works, and leaves out a lot of the plant byproduct, but working with butane sucks
other than that, i can't really think of anything. you could just cook it in some butter, that would also extract the THC, and filter out the pot and use the butter to make brownies, you'll get hiiiigh as long as you do it right.
i have my doubts about getting and injectable form of THC, but who knows. i'll be impressed if it works
good luck!
[This message has been edited by linolium (edited 13 August 2001).]
other than that, i can't really think of anything. you could just cook it in some butter, that would also extract the THC, and filter out the pot and use the butter to make brownies, you'll get hiiiigh as long as you do it right.
i have my doubts about getting and injectable form of THC, but who knows. i'll be impressed if it works
[This message has been edited by linolium (edited 13 August 2001).]
JunglistiX
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2001
- Messages
- 17
SWIM used 190 proof grain alcohol to extract the THC when trying to create a liquid form of THC for said purpose of ingesting orally or intravenously.
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Drugs don't kill people. Stupidity and carelessness does.
~Aim~
JunglistiX
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Drugs don't kill people. Stupidity and carelessness does.
~Aim~
JunglistiX
PlurredChemistry
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2001
- Messages
- 2,060
Hey Phreex
Sodium Ethoxide is a strong base and will definately deprontonate the -OH group on the THC. Its easy to make too (especially since you've got Sodium and Ethanol.
FIrst you've gotta figure out just how much sodium ethoxide you need. At best you want just under 1 molar equivalent - that way the sodium ethoxide is your limiting reatent and you won't have any excess (you'd rather inject pure thc than sodium ethoxide...)
How do you figure out how much you need? Dust off yer general chemistry book
No really though, all you've gotta do is find the mass of yer THC than convert that into moles of THC and then that's how many moles of sodium exthoxide you need (minus a little bit)
Okay - now convert that number into mass of ethanol. Also find how much sodium you'll need (the same number of moles as ethanol - minus a bit).
To make the sodium ethoxide you just hafta carefully add the sodium to your ethanol. Some gas should come off the liquid - this is H2 hydrogen gas. (oh yeah, make sure you've got absolute EtOH, otherwise you'll make sodium hydroxide...)
Now you should be add the sodium ethoxide to the THC...
DOH!!!
Wait a second...
Ummm one problem that i just thought of...
The THC salt you'll be creating will be fairly basic... This could be a problem... (sorry, i was relating this all to amide/alkaloid chemistry...) You'll probably want to dilute the thc salt a bit before injecting it...
**I dunno if this is such a good idea after all :-(**
Though making the THC water souluable is nice, the new molecule will be basic and could possibly hurt ya...
If you have a ph meter or ph paper you could then just test for PH, but i dunno how much you'd have to dilute it...
Good Luck!
Keep Us UPDATED!!!
Mateo
Sodium Ethoxide is a strong base and will definately deprontonate the -OH group on the THC. Its easy to make too (especially since you've got Sodium and Ethanol.
FIrst you've gotta figure out just how much sodium ethoxide you need. At best you want just under 1 molar equivalent - that way the sodium ethoxide is your limiting reatent and you won't have any excess (you'd rather inject pure thc than sodium ethoxide...)
How do you figure out how much you need? Dust off yer general chemistry book
No really though, all you've gotta do is find the mass of yer THC than convert that into moles of THC and then that's how many moles of sodium exthoxide you need (minus a little bit)Okay - now convert that number into mass of ethanol. Also find how much sodium you'll need (the same number of moles as ethanol - minus a bit).
To make the sodium ethoxide you just hafta carefully add the sodium to your ethanol. Some gas should come off the liquid - this is H2 hydrogen gas. (oh yeah, make sure you've got absolute EtOH, otherwise you'll make sodium hydroxide...)
Now you should be add the sodium ethoxide to the THC...
DOH!!!
Wait a second...
Ummm one problem that i just thought of...
The THC salt you'll be creating will be fairly basic... This could be a problem... (sorry, i was relating this all to amide/alkaloid chemistry...) You'll probably want to dilute the thc salt a bit before injecting it...
**I dunno if this is such a good idea after all :-(**
Though making the THC water souluable is nice, the new molecule will be basic and could possibly hurt ya...
If you have a ph meter or ph paper you could then just test for PH, but i dunno how much you'd have to dilute it...
Good Luck!
Keep Us UPDATED!!!
Mateo
it would seem that way, wouldn't it? =)
unfortunately, the ethanol must be absolutely anhydrous. (yeah, absolute, anhydrous, i know...) this may go so far as to mean "under nitrogen". and very carefully, yeah--but even if you ARE careful and don't end up with a nice high-school exothermic reaction demonstration, any water present will become NaOH and that'll just mess with things.
anhydrous ethanol isn't all that easy. it exists, of course, but it can only be prepared chemically since ethanol - water forms an azeotrope at 95:5 composition.
THC has a pKa of 10.6, about the same as methylamine. yes, you could (in theory) deprotonate it in ethanolic solution with sodium ethoxide - but i know nothing about the properties of sodium cannabinoxides.
plurred-- if you're assuming he has access to all this stuff, he should just set up a Soxhlet extraction, which would be great... and, yeah, these low-boiling organic solvents have serious volatility issues. they'd have to be in closed containers, and you'd probably have to check frequently to prevent dangerously high pressure buildup. anyway, the solvent doesn't necessarily have to be low-boiling since you could extract the product with water afterwards... except, of course, if the solvent was miscible with water, like ethanol is... and you have to use ethanol to make NaOCH2CH3. maybe you could try potassium t-butoxide instead? in t-butanol, or methyl t-butyl ether? at least water is slightly less soluble in t-butanol.. heh.
unfortunately, the ethanol must be absolutely anhydrous. (yeah, absolute, anhydrous, i know...) this may go so far as to mean "under nitrogen". and very carefully, yeah--but even if you ARE careful and don't end up with a nice high-school exothermic reaction demonstration, any water present will become NaOH and that'll just mess with things.
anhydrous ethanol isn't all that easy. it exists, of course, but it can only be prepared chemically since ethanol - water forms an azeotrope at 95:5 composition.
THC has a pKa of 10.6, about the same as methylamine. yes, you could (in theory) deprotonate it in ethanolic solution with sodium ethoxide - but i know nothing about the properties of sodium cannabinoxides.
plurred-- if you're assuming he has access to all this stuff, he should just set up a Soxhlet extraction, which would be great... and, yeah, these low-boiling organic solvents have serious volatility issues. they'd have to be in closed containers, and you'd probably have to check frequently to prevent dangerously high pressure buildup. anyway, the solvent doesn't necessarily have to be low-boiling since you could extract the product with water afterwards... except, of course, if the solvent was miscible with water, like ethanol is... and you have to use ethanol to make NaOCH2CH3. maybe you could try potassium t-butoxide instead? in t-butanol, or methyl t-butyl ether? at least water is slightly less soluble in t-butanol.. heh.
whoa, wack, i didn't see there was a second page... =)
well then..
okay, first off, yeah, water won't work. as you experienced. methylene chloride is a possibility, but it's halogenated and that's bad; ethanol, in which THC should be quite soluble, is nicer for trees and birds and flowers and such. (i am so indoctrinated.)
now, it's difficult to predict exactly what solvent is the best here, especially considering this whole sodium ethoxide thing. take advantage of the huge K_ow for THC, 6,000:1 octanol:water, and have a solvent you can handle...
all the stuff i've read seems to indicate that you will at no point get sparkling white crystals. this is unfortunate.. but to optimize your results there are several things you can do. keeping in mind that under perfect conditions you are going to get an oil.
- use ethanol as your solvent. reportedly acetone is a better solvent, but it'll be a problem later when you need to use NaOCH2CH3.. which I should say I'm not entirely in favor of.. but.. oh well. this ethanol will be as dry as possible. you will need a large supply of anhydrous MgSO4, but i think you should know how to deal with that. you will need to dry the solvent at intermediate steps.
- if at all possible, use either a proper Soxhlet extractor or try to devise some way to extract the material into your solvent in the vapor phase. just throwing plant material into a solvent will doubtless result in a significantly lower ratio of desirable to undesirable extracted solute (e.g. proteins and other biomolecules, lipids.. plant stuff you don't want), and possibly, ironically, a lower yield. exposing the very loosely packed but finely powdered plant matter (held in a paper 'thimble') to solvent vapor should work better. more importantly, this method results in no solid plant matter messing up your solvent, which should prove to be a very good thing. unfortunately a Soxhlet extractor is an extremely complicated piece of glassware, far more so than a mere Graham condenser, but there should be some way you can force vapor to travel through your sample then drip back into the solvent flask (the advantage of a proper soxhlet is that it allows the returning solvent to take a much easier path back to the flask as it condenses)
- have you considered using decolorizing charcoal? yeah, there's tons of problems with using it and it's easily possible to adsorb your product by using too much, but provided that what you want to extract isn't going to be absorbed (you'll have to look into that), charcoal could prove to be very useful.
- in theory the method of preparing NaOCH2CH3 isn't all that bad (although my book only has it on microscale), though of course sodium metal cannot touch water. absolute ethanol and a perfectly clean, dry (incubated overnight, in the real world=) flask suffices. the solution would be prepared first, then the crude extract would be added. theoretically, you would have the salt; but you won't have Sparkling White Crystals precipitating out of the ethanol. sodium cannabinols may be soluble in much more than you want them to be from an extraction point of view. you'll want to test the pH at this point - THC will be 50% ionized at pH 10.6 which is probably too high for your needs. if in fact there are IMable oils (which is something I don't know much about), then you could add a volume of water and boil off the ethanol (monitoring temperature), hoping that very little solute ends up in the receiving flask. if by chance the salt is soluble in water, then there you go. but the pharmas don't formulate it like that, and there may be good reasons for it.
really, you don't need to show off here. you could just do the first stage, evaporate the solvent, and vaporize the residue. this would be far easier than getting totally pure aqueous THC (if that's even possible), and far more pleasant than smoking the devil's-weed.
well then..
okay, first off, yeah, water won't work. as you experienced. methylene chloride is a possibility, but it's halogenated and that's bad; ethanol, in which THC should be quite soluble, is nicer for trees and birds and flowers and such. (i am so indoctrinated.)
now, it's difficult to predict exactly what solvent is the best here, especially considering this whole sodium ethoxide thing. take advantage of the huge K_ow for THC, 6,000:1 octanol:water, and have a solvent you can handle...
all the stuff i've read seems to indicate that you will at no point get sparkling white crystals. this is unfortunate.. but to optimize your results there are several things you can do. keeping in mind that under perfect conditions you are going to get an oil.
- use ethanol as your solvent. reportedly acetone is a better solvent, but it'll be a problem later when you need to use NaOCH2CH3.. which I should say I'm not entirely in favor of.. but.. oh well. this ethanol will be as dry as possible. you will need a large supply of anhydrous MgSO4, but i think you should know how to deal with that. you will need to dry the solvent at intermediate steps.
- if at all possible, use either a proper Soxhlet extractor or try to devise some way to extract the material into your solvent in the vapor phase. just throwing plant material into a solvent will doubtless result in a significantly lower ratio of desirable to undesirable extracted solute (e.g. proteins and other biomolecules, lipids.. plant stuff you don't want), and possibly, ironically, a lower yield. exposing the very loosely packed but finely powdered plant matter (held in a paper 'thimble') to solvent vapor should work better. more importantly, this method results in no solid plant matter messing up your solvent, which should prove to be a very good thing. unfortunately a Soxhlet extractor is an extremely complicated piece of glassware, far more so than a mere Graham condenser, but there should be some way you can force vapor to travel through your sample then drip back into the solvent flask (the advantage of a proper soxhlet is that it allows the returning solvent to take a much easier path back to the flask as it condenses)
- have you considered using decolorizing charcoal? yeah, there's tons of problems with using it and it's easily possible to adsorb your product by using too much, but provided that what you want to extract isn't going to be absorbed (you'll have to look into that), charcoal could prove to be very useful.
- in theory the method of preparing NaOCH2CH3 isn't all that bad (although my book only has it on microscale), though of course sodium metal cannot touch water. absolute ethanol and a perfectly clean, dry (incubated overnight, in the real world=) flask suffices. the solution would be prepared first, then the crude extract would be added. theoretically, you would have the salt; but you won't have Sparkling White Crystals precipitating out of the ethanol. sodium cannabinols may be soluble in much more than you want them to be from an extraction point of view. you'll want to test the pH at this point - THC will be 50% ionized at pH 10.6 which is probably too high for your needs. if in fact there are IMable oils (which is something I don't know much about), then you could add a volume of water and boil off the ethanol (monitoring temperature), hoping that very little solute ends up in the receiving flask. if by chance the salt is soluble in water, then there you go. but the pharmas don't formulate it like that, and there may be good reasons for it.
really, you don't need to show off here. you could just do the first stage, evaporate the solvent, and vaporize the residue. this would be far easier than getting totally pure aqueous THC (if that's even possible), and far more pleasant than smoking the devil's-weed.
see, i think the problem here is that oil doesn't mix with blood, and having a large amount of oil in your blood without any kind of lipoproteins or whatever to emulsify/dissolve it is a very bad thing. i'm not entirely sure, but i always thought you could only inject aqueous/saline solutions.
-spiderman-
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2001
- Messages
- 1,615
I haven't bought weed in oh so long but your description of your bud just got my cravings flowin' again, damn you!
I dunno shit aobut this, but more power to yah for doin' this.
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The only real drug problem is scorin real good drugs -- aim: Diskchucker
I dunno shit aobut this, but more power to yah for doin' this.
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The only real drug problem is scorin real good drugs -- aim: Diskchucker
If you could only inject water based solutions...explain roids then...most of the are tests and are all oil bases...thats why i said maybe he could extract the thc into some deca and then inject that
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~Lifes Never Ending Cycle..Sleep..Eat..Roids...Eat..Train..Eat..Sleep..Repeat Process till huge~
AolIM - Anabolics73
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~Lifes Never Ending Cycle..Sleep..Eat..Roids...Eat..Train..Eat..Sleep..Repeat Process till huge~
AolIM - Anabolics73