I'ld like to hear from anyone who uses an opioid to fight depression.

[kiely]

Wow. This didn't even show up in my feed or 'alerts.' I'm so disappointed.

 

[DesertHarp]

Well I take it, 4 times a day (I have a script and only use the ones with no actemetaphan) spaced out and I have a script for zofran(ondansetron) which is a perscription ( non scheduled anti nausea drug, and I have issues with my pancreas, also I have a gabapentin script, which makes me hungry and helped me eat and gain back alot of weight). unfortunately I am to older, in my late 40's, and too lazy too workout and put back the muscle mass I lost when I got really sick and was hospitalized for several weeks. This was in December 2015 a few weeks after my mom was found dead in the house, I now own and live in. Cause of death: Complications from cirrhosis of the liver, I suspect it was from too many pills with actemetaphan and then drinking to help with sleep, and pain, from a bad hysterectomy operation. My father who died in August 2023 was a surgeon and had the name of an excellent surgeon, but my mom only would let a female doctor perform the operation. She ended up with an incompetent female doctor and at what used to be the nightmare hospital in our area. She suffered and ultimately, paid for her stubbornness, with her life. There is a lot more to it but taking hugh amounts of fioricet which has, acetaminophen, caffeine and butalbital, ( a drug for migraines which she had a lot of, and butalbital, a barbiturate, and was not scheduled),(at least not back then)( the acetaminophen in hugh doses probably destroyed her liver), that and turning me into her drinking buddy killed her liver and her. Hydrocodone can cause nausea, also mild withdrawal since you only take 2 a day. My mom had problems with nausea from vicodin and norcos, but didn't know about Zofran.
I had my wisdom teeth pulled out a long time ago and I told the oral surgeon, I am not a druggie but am a real wimp about pain( which was true, but mainly a wimp when it comes to oral pain) and I ended up getting Percocets and Vicoden( this was a long time ago). Anyways my mother saw the bottle took a bunch of them, and said I paid for the operation (I was put under anesthesia) They are mine if I want them.( I think the DEA would disagree, but she is dead and this was around twenty or so years ago).
She absolutely loved them( they are a mix of oxycodone and acetaminophen)
and said that unlike vicodin or norco's; that they literally got rid of all her pain( literally from head to toe) but more importantly, they didn't make her nauseous.
She went to the same doctor I have and got dilauded, which she hated. If she would have told him he would have given her the oxycodone I take( because she had a bad liver and he would not write for any drug with acetaminophen in it for a patient with liver issues.
However she had a lot of pain issues and refused to ever ask for narcotics. She would have gotten the pure oxycodones which I am on and are noticeably stronger than the Percocets. But her pride, about not wanting to look like a drug seeker was her loss. Back then he would have written for her plenty of them. Maybe even a stronger dose and more, but that was before all this bullshit about telling doctors what they can write for and threatening them. Her loss, and she would have probably been still alive today. Pride can kill you.
It did her. Also she had been taking lots of fioricets for years before this for migraines and to help sleep.

It certainly is a good idea to minimize the intake of acetaminophen. My tablets are hydrocodone 10 mg with acetaminophen 325 mg. I don't think plain hydrocodone is available.

Many years ago, I was put on Fiorinal to combat tension headaches at work. The stuff worked great. Within a couple of months, I got used to the job and stopped taking Fiorinal. I think it had aspirin, instead of acetaminophen. That butalbital is a barbiturate, I think. Great stuff for headaches. I might have lost the job without it. Strong meds can sometimes get us thru something.

Your mom was a troubled person. And she passed that on to you. Oral pain is tough. I think when pain is in the head, it's harder to tune out. I have Zofran, but don't use it much. Sometimes I think it gives me a headache.

Doctors today have the Feds breathing down their necks. Everyone has to pay for the sins of the quack doctors. I used to be on Vicodin and Restoril (a benzo sleeper). One day my doctor announced, "Pick one because you can't have both." He said, "If you don't like it, blame Congress."

 

[Jnowhere]

It is absolutely ridiculous that congress and the state governments can dictate to doctors what they can prescribe. Everyone is different and there are many cases where the normal amounts don't even work on certain people.
Very few of these people have a medical background. Many are lawyers. In fact, there was that one presidential candidate who was basically a wealthy ambulance chaser. The one who cheated on his wife while she was dying from cancer. Anyways their laws are bs. They don't take into account people who build tolerance and arbitrarily make stuff up or have their staff do it. WTF, I am basically dying. My doctor has not said it, but I get the feeling that he is surprised I am still alive. I outlived my family including my little sister who was epileptic and had other medical problems and my dad who died in August.
There were problems with pill mills and ridulous over prescribing by quacks but the deathtoll in 2023 from illegal fentanyl was over 112,000 people; more than Vietnam and the Korean War combined and to put it in perspective a few thousand people died from heroin overdoses in 2010. The deaths from pills doesn't even come close to what is going on with fentanyl and traq dope. All they can do is intimidate doctors and make people like you and me suffer.
I don't mean to be rude, I am in late 40's myself: I get the impression that you are not some 20 or 30 something year old woman looking to get high. I also don't think you are some sort of druggie, either. You don't sound like a heavy drinker so the acetaminophen in your pills, provided you don't have a bad liver, is nowhere close to a dangerous level.
I have heard of people using anti- depressants and having success with them, but most of them seem to be paid actors on TV. Sorry to joke about that, but I understand. It was weird when I first started taking my painkillers, the oxycodone, not the morphine which I quit, that besides it reducing pain from pancreatitus, it gave me an incredible mood lift and I wasn't high, but just happy. And this happiness wasn't really related to a buzz or a high. As a former hard-core alky, it would have taken a lot more than one 10mg oxycodone to get me high. I understand what you mean. I even though I was addicted to alcohol, I am now allergic, thank you God, and having gone through alcohol withdrawals literally hundreds of times, has made it so that I am careful with my pills and don't abuse them. The idea of going through severe opiod withdrawal or benzo withdrawal really terrifies me, and keeps me in check, so to speak. I am not a young man anymore and I have lousy insurance and I don't think my body could survive benzo withdrawal and opiod withdrawal is less likely to kill me, but after all these years would be a nightmare. Besides nicotine, alcohol is the only drug that I truly loved. Kind of a love, hate relationship that, thank you ALMIGHTY GOD, that nightmare is gone for good. Even If I could keep it down the body itchiness is so bad, that hugh amounts of benadryl do nothing.
The side effects vary from person to person. I had vicodin prescribed and percocet prescribed at the same time( this was at least 2 decades ago), yea the vicodin helped, but just like my mom, I loved the percocets, I was in pain but got a little bonus mood lift. Now some people absolutely hate Oxycodone, because everyone is different and body chemistry varies sometimes greatly from person to person.
Saying my mom was troubled, is an understatement. She is dead and gone, but the sad part is that to people in public, unless they did something to really piss her off, she was a nice pleasant woman. At home she could be nice and normal but a lot of times she was a nightmare to deal with. She was almost 100% guaranteed, had untreated bipolar disorder of some kind but she could hide her craziness from everyone but her immediate family( my father, my sister and me). To the outside world she was nice and usually pleasant in public.
Anyways if Marijuana edibles help, I chatted with someone who used them to get off, of a recreational oxycodone habit. I would say that if you want to take a break to reset your tolerance. It shouldn't be super difficult because you only take 20mg per day. However you will need some comfort meds unless you want to go cold turkey. Now Marijuana edibles might help you.
For me getting off morphine: gabapentin, clonidine, and benzos really helped a lot. I have read from others that Marijuana edibles and black seed oil can help also. The benzos, such as Valium and Ativan are scheduled and so is gabapentin I think, also it's big brother Lyrica works great from what I have read. Clonidine is not. It is a heart med and is used off label to help opiod withdrawals. If you want to reset your tolerance, I don't know how long you have to wait. Hopefully if that becomes a goal, you will have ask someone else how long a wait once you stop. I have, the knowledge that I learned from my dad who ended up on pain meds for a long time, my sister who all sorts of medical problems, my mother who all sorts of issues and my own experience with doctors, not to mention my dad who was surgeon for 30- 40 years. Unfortunately I was called a racist, and sexist for giving out info on your best bet on which doctors to go to. However it is true that medical schools now are teaching their students to basically make people suffer and not give them any thing that works They are now teaching med school students that it is better to make people suffer than give them some pain relief. Yes their were doctor feelgood type quacks and Florida pill mills and aggressive advertising and getting doctors to prescibe Oxycontin, the long lasting oxycodone abused by so many people and problems with prescription Fentanyl being pushed by one pharmaceutical company and mainly the fault of one greedy scumbag.
Now we all pay. Now things are worse for everyone. The government is now the enemy of the people. Thousands used to die from heroin, now over 112,000 dead last year from illegal fentanyl. The government's answer, make pain patients suffer and open up the boarder, sorry to rant, but this government of the greatest country on Earth( which is now dying) has become the enemy of the people. I truly wish you the best of luck and hope and pray that your depression goes away. From my own experience and your posts, along with talking to people many who have been on anti depressants. It seems that is small doses of opiods work for a short time but they can lead to addiction and all sorts hugh problems.
I don't know of any any real solution, I have become a Christian and that has helped a lot. But to be really truly honest I know of no long term real solution to depression. Perhaps others have found it, but in this life many haven't. I can't get the over sadness of seeing my family members dead bodies. And the long term depression only goes away briefly. But I am getting better.
As for me being troubled, maybe so, But I am not the one whose life revolves around 2 vicoden or norcos a day.
I truly hope and pray that somehow you can overcome your depression and lead something that has alluded, many, true happiness, at least it this life.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I do believe that would be a beneficial trade-off, if you can pull it off. Tough to do though.

I'ld like to find a THC edible that has a more euphoric quality. I get zero euphoria from any cannabis I've tried. It will put me to sleep. Also, I think it makes me breathe deeper. My chest just seems to open up more. (I have some scar tissue in both lungs from a past pneumonia.)

I’ve not used any in over 20 years. When I was a teenager. I’ve never tried any of this new stuff. I don’t actually expect it to be euphoric. Those of us who have addiction problems know what real euphoria feels like & I’ve never found anything claiming that it was euphoric that actually made you feel good. I’m hoping maybe this will make me feel good enough to start tapering. It should be here in around an hour: I’ll try it a bit later & post what I find out either late tonight or tomorrow sometime. Until then, take care.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I sincerely wish you the best of luck, a lot of people have used Marijuana or THC, to get of hard drugs, including opiods, and even alcoholism. Your sentiments about being on methadone, seem too be shared by so many people. Unfortunately it is one of the hardest opiods to get off, of because of the long period of withdrawals, but I really hope and pray that the THC helps you.
There are a lot of people on Bluelight who are very knowledgeable about this and can help and support you as you try to not be stuck on Methadone for the rest of your life. Good luck and hopefully you can get off that leash.

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. I actually logged on today to look up into about it when I saw your reply. I’ll be trying the first dose tonight. Hopefully it goes well.

 

[Jnowhere]

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it. I actually logged on today to look up into about it when I saw your reply. I’ll be trying the first dose tonight. Hopefully it goes well.

I hope it goes well too, but remember to be patient, I do not know whether or not to have an empty stomach, best to find out first. Good luck and stay safe

 

[DesertHarp]

It is absolutely ridiculous that congress and the state governments can dictate to doctors what they can prescribe. Everyone is different and there are many cases where the normal amounts don't even work on certain people.
Very few of these people have a medical background. Many are lawyers. In fact, there was that one presidential candidate who was basically a wealthy ambulance chaser. The one who cheated on his wife while she was dying from cancer. Anyways their laws are bs. They don't take into account people who build tolerance and arbitrarily make stuff up or have their staff do it. WTF, I am basically dying. My doctor has not said it, but I get the feeling that he is surprised I am still alive. I outlived my family including my little sister who was epileptic and had other medical problems and my dad who died in August.
There were problems with pill mills and ridulous over prescribing by quacks but the deathtoll in 2023 from illegal fentanyl was over 112,000 people; more than Vietnam and the Korean War combined and to put it in perspective a few thousand people died from heroin overdoses in 2010. The deaths from pills doesn't even come close to what is going on with fentanyl and traq dope. All they can do is intimidate doctors and make people like you and me suffer.
I don't mean to be rude, I am in late 40's myself: I get the impression that you are not some 20 or 30 something year old woman looking to get high. I also don't think you are some sort of druggie, either. You don't sound like a heavy drinker so the acetaminophen in your pills, provided you don't have a bad liver, is nowhere close to a dangerous level.
I have heard of people using anti- depressants and having success with them, but most of them seem to be paid actors on TV. Sorry to joke about that, but I understand. It was weird when I first started taking my painkillers, the oxycodone, not the morphine which I quit, that besides it reducing pain from pancreatitus, it gave me an incredible mood lift and I wasn't high, but just happy. And this happiness wasn't really related to a buzz or a high. As a former hard-core alky, it would have taken a lot more than one 10mg oxycodone to get me high. I understand what you mean. I even though I was addicted to alcohol, I am now allergic, thank you God, and having gone through alcohol withdrawals literally hundreds of times, has made it so that I am careful with my pills and don't abuse them. The idea of going through severe opiod withdrawal or benzo withdrawal really terrifies me, and keeps me in check, so to speak. I am not a young man anymore and I have lousy insurance and I don't think my body could survive benzo withdrawal and opiod withdrawal is less likely to kill me, but after all these years would be a nightmare. Besides nicotine, alcohol is the only drug that I truly loved. Kind of a love, hate relationship that, thank you ALMIGHTY GOD, that nightmare is gone for good. Even If I could keep it down the body itchiness is so bad, that hugh amounts of benadryl do nothing.
The side effects vary from person to person. I had vicodin prescribed and percocet prescribed at the same time( this was at least 2 decades ago), yea the vicodin helped, but just like my mom, I loved the percocets, I was in pain but got a little bonus mood lift. Now some people absolutely hate Oxycodone, because everyone is different and body chemistry varies sometimes greatly from person to person.
Saying my mom was troubled, is an understatement. She is dead and gone, but the sad part is that to people in public, unless they did something to really piss her off, she was a nice pleasant woman. At home she could be nice and normal but a lot of times she was a nightmare to deal with. She was almost 100% guaranteed, had untreated bipolar disorder of some kind but she could hide her craziness from everyone but her immediate family( my father, my sister and me). To the outside world she was nice and usually pleasant in public.
Anyways if Marijuana edibles help, I chatted with someone who used them to get off, of a recreational oxycodone habit. I would say that if you want to take a break to reset your tolerance. It shouldn't be super difficult because you only take 20mg per day. However you will need some comfort meds unless you want to go cold turkey. Now Marijuana edibles might help you.
For me getting off morphine: gabapentin, clonidine, and benzos really helped a lot. I have read from others that Marijuana edibles and black seed oil can help also. The benzos, such as Valium and Ativan are scheduled and so is gabapentin I think, also it's big brother Lyrica works great from what I have read. Clonidine is not. It is a heart med and is used off label to help opiod withdrawals. If you want to reset your tolerance, I don't know how long you have to wait. Hopefully if that becomes a goal, you will have ask someone else how long a wait once you stop. I have, the knowledge that I learned from my dad who ended up on pain meds for a long time, my sister who all sorts of medical problems, my mother who all sorts of issues and my own experience with doctors, not to mention my dad who was surgeon for 30- 40 years. Unfortunately I was called a racist, and sexist for giving out info on your best bet on which doctors to go to. However it is true that medical schools now are teaching their students to basically make people suffer and not give them any thing that works They are now teaching med school students that it is better to make people suffer than give them some pain relief. Yes their were doctor feelgood type quacks and Florida pill mills and aggressive advertising and getting doctors to prescibe Oxycontin, the long lasting oxycodone abused by so many people and problems with prescription Fentanyl being pushed by one pharmaceutical company and mainly the fault of one greedy scumbag.
Now we all pay. Now things are worse for everyone. The government is now the enemy of the people. Thousands used to die from heroin, now over 112,000 dead last year from illegal fentanyl. The government's answer, make pain patients suffer and open up the boarder, sorry to rant, but this government of the greatest country on Earth( which is now dying) has become the enemy of the people. I truly wish you the best of luck and hope and pray that your depression goes away. From my own experience and your posts, along with talking to people many who have been on anti depressants. It seems that is small doses of opiods work for a short time but they can lead to addiction and all sorts hugh problems.
I don't know of any any real solution, I have become a Christian and that has helped a lot. But to be really truly honest I know of no long term real solution to depression. Perhaps others have found it, but in this life many haven't. I can't get the over sadness of seeing my family members dead bodies. And the long term depression only goes away briefly. But I am getting better.
As for me being troubled, maybe so, But I am not the one whose life revolves around 2 vicoden or norcos a day.
I truly hope and pray that somehow you can overcome your depression and lead something that has alluded, many, true happiness, at least it this life.

That's great that you overcame so much. I hope things just get even better for you.

 

[Jnowhere]

Thank you

 

[Pain_in_vain]

Disclaimer: this is not a medical advice, I have not read the whole thread and am giving my general opinion regarding the question "are opioids reasonable tool for dealing with mental state disorders?".

My conclusion about opioids for depression is following. If one has no major problems in important areas of life, like financial security, healthy relationship with friends and family, is physically healthy (no pain or other health issues that cause great worry), and has tried to change depressed state by eating healthy and exercise than I would steer away from opioids. Yes they will make you feel better and at first more activated opioid receptors will not just take your pain away but will make you feel more connected, emphatic and optimistic...cause that is what endogenous opiates do. But then, very rapidly (few months at most) tolerance will come and you will experience less and less of effects because of which opiates are great recreational antidepressants. Feelings of empathy and bonding with other people or things will be overpowered by pain killing effects, sedation and eventually numbing of all senses. With that one will lose freedom and the dread of withdrawal will create black clouds with no visible light in the future. Ones life will narrow so much that opioids will become only thing that matters and addiction will be new problem on top of depression.

On the other side if one has legit chronic pain issues that are narrowing ones life and depression stems from that then opioids will open up the window for a person to start fixing things that are contributing to depression. In that case the rational is there and opioids just by virtue of pain killing effects will help the person to actually start seeing light at the edge of the storm. It is still a possible trap and one needs to be careful not to stagnate in the slightly better conditions of the stormy weather. Cause if one does not activate, start improving and moving forward to the sunny side lightning will strike and opportunity will turn into disaster.

There is third way - using opioids sparingly to just see that there is a light. But opioids are not great tool for something like that. If one is truly depressed managing opioid intake is almost impossible. There are other agents for that like empathogens, dissociatives and psychedelics.

So in my experience and observation opioids are not a go to for true depression. Only case I can make is if somebody does not have access to empathogens, dissociatives and psychedelics and is considering a suicide. Opioid addiction beats suicide, but fixing ones diet, exercising, making sure that one is not depressed cause of fucked up life which is distinct from clinical depression and using other agents like ketamine, mdma, psilocybin, pharmaceutical antidepressants to start the motor running would be much safer and overall better way to go.

So first one needs to find out is the state fixable by adressing core/basic issues. Than if major depressive disorder is true state and diagnosis next step would be to try some better suited agent for the ailment, and than do the work necessary so the chemical agent is not doing all the lifting. If ones depression stems from chronic pain then opioids are reasonable stqrt of adressing the issue.

Worst outcome will have a person that has is not having proper diet, not exercising, does not have financial issues and is not in chronic pain from properly diagnosed disorder. Putting opioids as band aid on emotional misery is sure way to full blown opioid addiction. Use only if all else truly fail or is not available.

Just a thought and some experience. Take care everyone!

 

[DesertHarp]

Disclaimer: this is not a medical advice, I have not read the whole thread and am giving my general opinion regarding the question "are opioids reasonable tool for dealing with mental state disorders?".

My conclusion about opioids for depression is following. If one has no major problems in important areas of life, like financial security, healthy relationship with friends and family, is physically healthy (no pain or other health issues that cause great worry), and has tried to change depressed state by eating healthy and exercise than I would steer away from opioids. Yes they will make you feel better and at first more activated opioid receptors will not just take your pain away but will make you feel more connected, emphatic and optimistic...cause that is what endogenous opiates do. But then, very rapidly (few months at most) tolerance will come and you will experience less and less of effects because of which opiates are great recreational antidepressants. Feelings of empathy and bonding with other people or things will be overpowered by pain killing effects, sedation and eventually numbing of all senses. With that one will lose freedom and the dread of withdrawal will create black clouds with no visible light in the future. Ones life will narrow so much that opioids will become only thing that matters and addiction will be new problem on top of depression.

On the other side if one has legit chronic pain issues that are narrowing ones life and depression stems from that then opioids will open up the window for a person to start fixing things that are contributing to depression. In that case the rational is there and opioids just by virtue of pain killing effects will help the person to actually start seeing light at the edge of the storm. It is still a possible trap and one needs to be careful not to stagnate in the slightly better conditions of the stormy weather. Cause if one does not activate, start improving and moving forward to the sunny side lightning will strike and opportunity will turn into disaster.

There is third way - using opioids sparingly to just see that there is a light. But opioids are not great tool for something like that. If one is truly depressed managing opioid intake is almost impossible. There are other agents for that like empathogens, dissociatives and psychedelics.

So in my experience and observation opioids are not a go to for true depression. Only case I can make is if somebody does not have access to empathogens, dissociatives and psychedelics and is considering a suicide. Opioid addiction beats suicide, but fixing ones diet, exercising, making sure that one is not depressed cause of fucked up life which is distinct from clinical depression and using other agents like ketamine, mdma, psilocybin, pharmaceutical antidepressants to start the motor running would be much safer and overall better way to go.

So first one needs to find out is the state fixable by adressing core/basic issues. Than if major depressive disorder is true state and diagnosis next step would be to try some better suited agent for the ailment, and than do the work necessary so the chemical agent is not doing all the lifting. If ones depression stems from chronic pain then opioids are reasonable stqrt of adressing the issue.

Worst outcome will have a person that has is not having proper diet, not exercising, does not have financial issues and is not in chronic pain from properly diagnosed disorder. Putting opioids as band aid on emotional misery is sure way to full blown opioid addiction. Use only if all else truly fail or is not available.

Just a thought and some experience. Take care everyone!

Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful analysis of the interplay between opioid use and depression. I think you've given a good overview of the various aspects of that interplay that need to be looked at.

I don't think I would ever try to claim that opioids are a reasonable tool for dealing with mental health problems. Opioids are pain killers. They can be useful to control physical pain, which may be necessary before one can focus on other issues. I think we agree on that.

Taking opioids to reduce psychological pain is something I believe people do out of desperation. I would never claim it's the smartest thing to do. I've been doing it out of desperation. I started this thread to see if anyone else could understand that. Well, it sure seems I'm not alone. Of course, even if a million people do something, that doesn't make it the best thing to do. We're humans, which means we don't always make choices that are based on perfect logic and excellent judgement.

I've been getting episodes of depression all my life. In between episodes, I've tended to do well. For me, an "episode" is like getting the flu. It makes me feel miserable, but it runs its course and goes away. Then I feel normal again. Right now, I'm in an episode that is a real humdinger. I've been depressed since November. Over 4 months! Lately, I feel like I can't hardly stand this. So, yeah, I'm looking for any shortcut way to get a break. I've even thought of suicide, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. I remind myself that I've had bad episodes in the past and always managed to recover. But it gets awful discouraging and demoralizing, when I'm in a tailspin this long. If I push myself to do all the right things, I improve for a day or two, but it doesn't last. So I took some extra doses of Vicodin today. It helped.

I can't keep doing that, or I'll run out of my prescribed quota for the month. Then I'll have withdrawal. For me that consists of nausea and restless leg syndrome that makes me want to throw myself off a cliff. RLS makes me crazy and frantic for relief. So I will slow down and ration my supply to last till my next refill.

I'm trying to hook up with professional mental health support. I've heard people say that "There's plenty of help available. All you have to do is ask." Sorry, but that's just not true. It used to be easier. Years ago, if I told a primary care doctor that my depression was getting out of hand, I would be given a referral to see a shrink. Those days are gone where I live. My primary now tells me that I could be put on a waiting list, and I might be on it for a year. Plus, they don't even hook you up to an actual psychiatrist. You end up seeing a Nurse Practitioner or a Physician's Assistant. That person reads off questions from a computer monitor and types in your answers. Basically, you're talking to the side of the person's head, while this individual faces the computer screen and types. It's like talking to a robot.

Unless cops find you holding a gun to your own head, you're not taken seriously.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Beyond the legalities, which is absurd imo, there is something else that I don't think was really hit on directly.

A bit off topic, but here we go. The popular, destructive myth that corporations and then doctors perpetuated in the era of widespread Oxycontin abuse and such, was that if taken for physical pain, opioids would not be addictive. They are. They feel great mentally, even if they're taken for legitimate physical pain. And that's how so many start their use. They start from a prescription given to them by a doctor, then make their way up the chain, and if they don't somehow stop, they find themselves with a super expensive dope habit. From a valid prescription. We know this tale. But as a society we're beginning to understand the very dynamic by which people get addicted, people who were originally just doing the right thing.

The question is how we can deal with this unfortunate occurrence within the constraints of drug prohibition. I don't doubt that restrictions will decrease, but maybe not for a while. What we have here is a pure issue that needs a pragmatic solution. People fall into the black hole of using opioids for depression without realizing it, having done the right thing on their end, not having become addicted for doing anything other than what a doctor told them to do. Not all people, but tons and tons. And now we have an opioid pandemic.

Also, nervous system damage via hypoxia from opioids is a real thing. As is the long-term depression and anxiety they can cause.

But certainly, if one has a bad physical injury, depression can also be caused by being relatively immobile. And opioids are enticing as a short-term fix for the frequent trauma associated with that accident. And they work right away. Just not for long.

 

[DesertHarp]

Beyond the legalities, which is absurd imo, there is something else that I don't think was really hit on directly.

A bit off topic, but here we go. The popular, destructive myth that corporations and then doctors perpetuated in the era of widespread Oxycontin abuse and such, was that if taken for physical pain, opioids would not be addictive. They are. They feel great mentally, even if they're taken for legitimate physical pain. And that's how so many start their use. They start from a prescription given to them by a doctor, then make their way up the chain, and if they don't somehow stop, they find themselves with a super expensive dope habit. From a valid prescription. We know this tale. But as a society we're beginning to understand the very dynamic by which people get addicted, people who were originally just doing the right thing.

The question is how we can deal with this unfortunate occurrence within the constraints of drug prohibition. I don't doubt that restrictions will decrease, but maybe not for a while. What we have here is a pure issue that needs a pragmatic solution. People fall into the black hole of using opioids for depression without realizing it, having done the right thing on their end, not having become addicted for doing anything other than what a doctor told them to do. Not all people, but tons and tons. And now we have an opioid pandemic.

Also, nervous system damage via hypoxia from opioids is a real thing. As is the long-term depression and anxiety they can cause.

But certainly, if one has a bad physical injury, depression can also be caused by being relatively immobile. And opioids are enticing as a short-term fix for the frequent trauma associated with that accident. And they work right away. Just not for long.

These are valid points. Doctors claiming they didn't realize how addictive opioids were seems disingenuous to me, but it seems that's what has been used as an excuse for overprescribing.

Humans began using opioids thousands of years ago. Surely it became obvious back then that use led to more use. Morphine has been with us for 2 centuries and laudenum for even way longer. Plenty of doctors became addicts, including Dr. William Halsted - one of the founders of Johns Hopkins Hospital - who left notes detailing his use to be looked at by colleagues after his death. He couldn't kick the habit, so he kept himself on maintenance daily dosages of morphine and had an illustrious career. I guess being a substantial opioid user is not incompatible with living a very productive and useful life . . . if you can pace yourself.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Wow. This didn't even show up in my feed or 'alerts.' I'm so disappointed.

it was in New Member Introduction subforum for awhile until I moved it last week, but that's why it didn't show up until then

Dextromethorphin is sold OTC, in cough syrup as a cough suppressant. Now they're saying it can help depression. I think I saw somewhere that it can potentiate an opioid. Cough syrup usually also contains guaifenesin, an expectorant. I've read that guaifenesin potentiates opioids. So I'm now taking cough syrup with those two ingredients, along with my Vicodin. I'm not noticing that it makes any difference.

DXM supposedly reduces tolerance to a lot of drugs, including opioids. So do other NMDA antagonists such as agmatine. Partly druggy myth, partly fact. Somewhere in the middle. After much experimentation with with DXM and agmatine as a tolerance reducer / potentiator of opioids, it's mostly overblown and not worth it.

Both DXM and agmatine DO potentiate opioids, but not the euphoria, you just feel more fucked up, feel more high, but not necessarily in a good way. I never noticed any meaningful tolerance reduction, either.

There are a lot of purported opioid potentiators, I've tried most of them, and overall I found all of them to be a waste of time, or mostly placebo effect.

The only REAL potentiator of hydrocodone are chemicals/drugs that act as CYP inhibitors, for that specific drug, but that also turns into extremely dangerous territory with certain opioids.

Fresh grapefruit would be the most common example of this. It inhibits liver enzyme CYP3a4, which is the main pathway for metabolizing hydrocodone. Inhibiting this reaction would cause more hydrocodone to metabolize into hydromorphone... which is technically like 2x more potent than heroin.

Drinking fresh squeezed grapefruit juice for a week should absolutely potentiate your normal hydrocodone dose, potentially in a dangerous way if you were to take high doses.

With your normal dose, 10mg or whatever, it would probably be a modest increase, subjectively. It can't magically double it's strength.

 

[DesertHarp]

These are valid points. Doctors claiming they didn't realize how addictive opioids were seems disingenuous to me, but it seems that's what has been used as an excuse for overprescribing.

Humans began using opioids thousands of years ago. Surely it became obvious back then that use led to more use. Morphine has been with us for 2 centuries and laudenum for even way longer. Plenty of doctors became addicts, including Dr. William Halsted - one of the founders of Johns Hopkins Hospital - who left notes detailing his use to be looked at by colleagues after his death. He couldn't kick the habit, so he kept himself on maintenance daily dosages of morphine and had an illustrious career. I guess being a substantial opioid user is not incompatible with living a very productive and useful life . . . if you can pace yourself.

it was in New Member Introduction subforum for awhile until I moved it last week, but that's why it didn't show up until then



DXM supposedly reduces tolerance to a lot of drugs, including opioids. So do other NMDA antagonists such as agmatine. Partly druggy myth, partly fact. Somewhere in the middle. After much experimentation with with DXM and agmatine as a tolerance reducer / potentiator of opioids, it's mostly overblown and not worth it.

Both DXM and agmatine DO potentiate opioids, but not the euphoria, you just feel more fucked up, feel more high, but not necessarily in a good way. I never noticed any meaningful tolerance reduction, either.

There are a lot of purported opioid potentiators, I've tried most of them, and overall I found all of them to be a waste of time, or mostly placebo effect.

The only REAL potentiator of hydrocodone are chemicals/drugs that act as CYP inhibitors, for that specific drug, but that also turns into extremely dangerous territory with certain opioids.

Fresh grapefruit would be the most common example of this. It inhibits liver enzyme CYP3a4, which is the main pathway for metabolizing hydrocodone. Inhibiting this reaction would cause more hydrocodone to metabolize into hydromorphone... which is technically like 2x more potent than heroin.

Drinking fresh squeezed grapefruit juice for a week should absolutely potentiate your normal hydrocodone dose, potentially in a dangerous way if you were to take high doses.

With your normal dose, 10mg or whatever, it would probably be a modest increase, subjectively. It can't magically double it's strength.

Thanks for passing that on. When I get to the store, I'll be heading for the produce section. I happen to like grapefruit, but mostly I just drank the juice they sell in the refrigerated section. Maybe frozen grapefruit juice might retain properties of the fresh juice.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Thanks for passing that on. When I get to the store, I'll be heading for the produce section. I happen to like grapefruit, but mostly I just drank the juice they sell in the refrigerated section. Maybe frozen grapefruit juice might retain properties of the fresh juice

it literally needs to be fresh squeezed juice from the fruit itself.

pasteurization aka all store bought juice it is destroyed and not in there

 

[DesertHarp]

it literally needs to be fresh squeezed juice from the fruit itself.

pasteurization aka all store bought juice it is destroyed and not in there

Thanks. I'll get some fruit.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I've started a few threads already. I'm starting this one to introduce myself, which I didn't do before.

I take hydrocodone for back pain. I get 60 tablets each month. (What I get is called Vicodin - hydrocodone and acetaminophen - 10/325.) That's my only supply. It's prescribed legally. Much of the time, my back pain isn't a big issue. Often, the real reason I keep taking these pills is to feel better mentally. I suffer from depression. I've been to shrinks about it and tried all kinds of psych meds. Nothing they prescibe does much. I function okay.

It seems like my life revolves around these pills. Basically, I take one every twelve hours. I'm obsessed with these pills. I count the hours until I can take another one. Sometimes, when the depression is bad, I don't wait the twelve hours. If I run out of pills before the month is up, I pay a price. If I go 36 hours without a pill, I start to have withdrawal. For me that is "restless leg syndrome." I would call it akathisia because it is round the clock. It's torture, so I mostly space out my pills to last the whole month.
At times, I think of suicide to escape the depression. I feel like these tablets are the best thing I have going for me. Yesterday, I took two tablets at the same time because I was having a miserable time with severe depression. That 20 mg of hydrocodone was like getting a glass of water in the desert. It helped a lot.

I wonder if anyone else here finds that using an opioid relieves depression. I don't discuss this with any doctor. I figure that would be the fastest way to lose this prescription that I value so much.

I always have to fight the temptation to use up my tablets ahead of schedule because I don't want to face withdrawal.

I'm trying to find a way to feel better without using up my tablets too soon. I'm thinking of trying edible cannabis. I don't find alcohol helpful, so I'm not much of a drinker.

No Alcohol if you can prevent it from entering your life. Its one of the best depressant's there is.

But the use of Opoid's against depression yes. Very aquinted with it. Luckily the from I used, Kratom, is a manageable addiction. And it being cheap and a bit stimulating are + point's.

So yes I did, and would do again if able to or necessary. Dextro-Amphetamine + Kratom worked even better. Add 7.5 mg Mirtazepine at night, perfect AD.

 

[DesertHarp]

No Alcohol if you can prevent it from entering your life. Its one of the best depressant's there is.

But the use of Opoid's against depression yes. Very aquinted with it. Luckily the from I used, Kratom, is a manageable addiction. And it being cheap and a bit stimulating are + point's.

So yes I did, and would do again if able to or necessary. Dextro-Amphetamine + Kratom worked even better. Add 7.5 mg Mirtazepine at night, perfect AD.

I know that alcohol is considered a central nervous system depressant, but so are opioids. I found alcohol pretty good for reducing anxiety, and very good for quickly reducing stress after a demanding day at work. I used to binge drink from time to time. Then, after years of occasional alcohol abuse, I just lost interest in it. Around the same time, I got put on Vicodin for back pain. I loved it.

I found that the Vicodin (hydrocodone) made me so much happier to be alive. It never made me sleepy. My driving was never impaired. I got more done in a day.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I know that alcohol is considered a central nervous system depressant, but so are opioids. I found alcohol pretty good for reducing anxiety, and very good for quickly reducing stress after a demanding day at work. I used to binge drink from time to time. Then, after years of occasional alcohol abuse, I just lost interest in it. Around the same time, I got put on Vicodin for back pain. I loved it.

I found that the Vicodin (hydrocodone) made me so much happier to be alive. It never made me sleepy. My driving was never impaired. I got more done in a day.

I meant Alcohol is the opposit of a Anti-depressant. A side effect of Alcohol is depression. Not only temporarely body and mind, like GHB, but long term. One night of heavy drinking can create feeelings of depression/ bad mood lasting week's.

Don't think Opoid share that mechanisme, on contrary while on them they are great AD's.

 

[endlessnameless]

I meant Alcohol is the opposit of a Anti-depressant. A side effect of Alcohol is depression. Not only temporarely body and mind, like GHB, but long term. One night of heavy drinking can create feeelings of depression/ bad mood lasting week's.

Don't think Opoid share that mechanisme, on contrary while on them they are great AD's.

As an avid opioid enthusiast, I can tell you they are indeed a fantastic AD...while you're on them. The same can be said for Alcohol though, and both are CNS depressants each with the side-effect of severe rebound depression. Anything that works on flooding the brain's dopamine receptors is naturally going to cause an extended period of depression until the neurochemistry of the brain stabilises - typically through abstinence.