Need Help Coming off codeine with subutex

[Panels123]

Welcome. I just wanted you to keep this option in mind, since it's really not a bad option. But regardless of the route, I wish you the best!

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better." (Samuel Beckett)

Thanks but I wouldn't know what amounts to take, even though I can get hold of it.

My taper is going steadily and once I'm down to 20 pills I think I'll try going cold turkey, with the help of kratom.

My fear of using Subutex is that it would be at home, so outside a professional setting, should anything go wrong.

I also take benzos so I don't want to mix something as strong as Subutex with those.

I've been scared to do my taper too quickly but I'm realising now that I can go much, much more quickly than I have been and not experience any discomfort.

Of course it is more mentally changelling to withdraw over a protracted length of time but I have personal reasons for needing to do so and the reduction so far has made me feel so much sharper mentally and I'm feeling really motivated to keep going.

It won't be too long before I'm taking half what I was originally, so Subs really are out of the question.

Although my plan may sound set in stone, I'm all ears if anyone has any advice and I'm keeping an open mind about it, so thanks for taking the time to comment.

 

[voivod]

I also take benzos so I don't want to mix something as strong as Subutex with those.

First of all: I totally understand what you mean. I wasn't aware that you also take benzos, which makes things a little bit more complicated and it's definitely not a good idea to try out an opioid withdrawal with buprenorphine when you take benzos too, and certainly not at home.

It won't be too long before I'm taking half what I was originally, so Subs really are out of the question.

First you are going down as low as possible (with morphine this would be sth like 120mg) and then you have to wait at least 24 hours and then you take 2mg buprenorphine. If that's not enough, you take again 2mg. And so on. After 3 or 4 days you stop taking buprenorphine and that"s it. But again, at home with benzos it's a completely different situation and therefore I agree with you that Subs are out.
I wish you all the best, stay strong, I know that it's not easy (but who said it has to be easy?).

 

[Panels123]

First of all: I totally understand what you mean. I wasn't aware that you also take benzos, which makes things a little bit more complicated and it's definitely not a good idea to try out an opioid withdrawal with buprenorphine when you take benzos too, and certainly not at home.


First you are going down as low as possible (with morphine this would be sth like 120mg) and then you have to wait at least 24 hours and then you take 2mg buprenorphine. If that's not enough, you take again 2mg. And so on. After 3 or 4 days you stop taking buprenorphine and that"s it. But again, at home with benzos it's a completely different situation and therefore I agree with you that Subs are out.
I wish you all the best, stay strong, I know that it's not easy (but who said it has to be easy?).

It's not been as bad as I thought so far and I'm feeling the benefits of reducing.

I think I went from 72 to 40 a bit too quickly, so I'm going to settle of 45 pills a day till next weekend, when I'll make another big cut.

I'm expecting it to get much harder as the doses get lower - the thought of getting down to 10 pills a day, for example, seems impossible at the moment but I guess I would have said the same about getting from 72 to 45 not long ago.

 

[voivod]

It's not been as bad as I thought so far and I'm feeling the benefits of reducing.

I think I went from 72 to 40 a bit too quickly, so I'm going to settle of 45 pills a day till next weekend, when I'll make another big cut.

I'm expecting it to get much harder as the doses get lower - the thought of getting down to 10 pills a day, for example, seems impossible at the moment but I guess I would have said the same about getting from 72 to 45 not long ago.

It's allways better to reduce slowly, since otherwise it will be twice as hard on the last steps. When you are on high doses it's easy to cut like half of it, because even half of your usual amount is more than enough to prevent withdrawal symptoms.
The first four weeks after my withdrawal I found the hardest as I couldn't sleep more than 4 or 5 hours and the days seemed endless. I got up at 5 a.m. every day and by noon I didn't know what to do with all that time anymore.

 

[Panels123]

It's allways better to reduce slowly, since otherwise it will be twice as hard on the last steps. When you are on high doses it's easy to cut like half of it, because even half of your usual amount is more than enough to prevent withdrawal symptoms.
The first four weeks after my withdrawal I found the hardest as I couldn't sleep more than 4 or 5 hours and the days seemed endless. I got up at 5 a.m. every day and by noon I didn't know what to do with all that time anymore.

I'd kill for 4 or 5 hours.

Even when I'm settled on a dose, I go to bed, wake up 2 hours later, then I can be up for 4-5 hours before I manage to drift off again.

I listen to hypnosis, I tried every supplement under the sun that's meant to help with sleep and I've tried zopiclone but I just can't sleep.

It's got to the point where I've just accepted it as being part of it and the main reason I'm desperate to get clean is that my wife has twins on the way, so I guess lack of sleep is good practice for that .

It's just so annoying that I could sleep at any time of the day, except when I should be asleep at night!

 

[Panels123]

Ok, well I think you're doing right tapering down the codeine. Anytime I took tolerance breaks from my prescribed opioids I always used codeine to taper down with. It's really not as bad a withdrawal than I had with the likes of tramadol for example.

I'm hoping the best for you and I know you'll come out the other side and feel much better! Keep us updated and remember that you can take the taper slower if its very uncomfortable, you'll still get there in the end.

What dose of tramadol did you withdraw from, if you don't mind me asking?

I was taking 10-15 a day and, although that might not sound like much to some folk, the withdrawals from that weren't particularly nice.

I'd completely forgotten about taking tramadol because it was so long ago but I broke my neck in 3 places and was on tramadol for months.

 

[MsDiz]

What dose of tramadol did you withdraw from, if you don't mind me asking?

I was taking 10-15 a day and, although that might not sound like much to some folk, the withdrawals from that weren't particularly nice.

I'd completely forgotten about taking tramadol because it was so long ago but I broke my neck in 3 places and was on tramadol for months.

I was prescribed it for chronic pain so I was taking it as directed and the max I took in a day was probably 400mg spread out. I think it was the fact that it wasn't just the opioid withdrawal but also the SNRI properties that fucked me over.

 

[Panels123]

I was prescribed it for chronic pain so I was taking it as directed and the max I took in a day was probably 400mg spread out. I think it was the fact that it wasn't just the opioid withdrawal but also the SNRI properties that fucked me over.

Jings, I went cold turkey at 100mg and that wasn't great, so 4 times that must have been horrible.

Well done for getting through it!

 

[MsDiz]

Jings, I went cold turkey at 100mg and that wasn't great, so 4 times that must have been horrible.

Well done for getting through it!

I tapered right down to 50mg every other day then spread the days out. It was still absolutely horrible. You got through it too so it’s possible! Codeine is peanuts compared to that.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Many people underestimate how dependence-forming codeine is. It all depends on how active your liver is in O-demethylating codeine into morphine. Some ethnic groups convert almost 100% of the codeine they imbibe into morphine. So one you say '2100mg of morphine' THEN people recognise that severity of one's dependence.

It's that typical 'well I was FINE so what are YOU complaining about?'

Also, with high-doses of codeine, even if your liver doesn't convert it to M instantly (well, usually it's 30-60 minutes), you will end up with morphine in your system 24/7. So it's more like trying to stop a dependence that is more like methadone than anything else (and most people agree that methadone is a tough one to kick).

Codeine is generally considered to be a pro-dtug but codeine-6-gluconate IS an active opioid.

Here in the UK doctors no longer prescribe codeine because it's considered to be 'too addictive' which tells you a lot.

Buprenorphine will help if you don't suffer from the side-effects. The problem I met was that the specialist INSISTED I went up to 16mg of buprenorphine all in a single dose. The anxiety was simply awful. I even asked if I could split the dose and was told I could not. So I bought a pill splitter and took 2mg 4 times a day. I reduced that to 3 times a day to find the dose that was appropriate to me.

It worked. I was able to stop using the buprenorphine in a week. In short, it seems like the experts really don't seem to understand codeine dependence and so you may have to find your own path.

The HR worker I talked to simply said 'do whatever works for YOU' so clearly she couldn't officially tell me to divert from the official line on treatment, but she evidently knew that codeine requires a slightly different approach.

But I am only speaking from my OWN experiences. My only takeaway is that codeine dependence does not seem to be well understood and so while you should always listen to the experts, I don't believe that taking LESS buprenorphine than indicated is going to be considered 'non-compliance'. I had to just quietly find out what worked for me.

That codeine is so readily available is a significant problem. You don't have to go looking for it - every pharmacy sells it.

Good luck.

 

[Spgc1984]

Hello,

New member, long time lurker here.

I have searched threads but can't find one specific to my situation.

I am addicted to codeine and I am absolutely desperate to get off it.

I am taking 2,100mg a day.

I could taper but I am considering the Subutex route just for speed, as I no longer crave the high and if I could click my fingers and stop this then I would.

Does anyone know where I could find a tapering schedule (I have looked for absolutely ages, but the amount I'm taking isn't covered) or be able to talk me through it?

I'd be eternally grateful and just want to get my life back.

I CWE three times a day, with no doses in between.

I know how unpleasant withdrawal is but if it means getting on Subutex then I will do it happily.

The only thing is that I don't really know how long is safe to wait with the amounts I'm taking but I can go 12 hours without even thinking about dosing.

I also have no idea what dose of Subutex I should start on, how long I should stay on it, or when and by how much I should reduce.

TL;DR: I take 2,100mg of codeine a day and I'm considering Subutex to withdraw. I have no idea where to beging and I'm looking for a withdrawal schedule.

Thank you so much in advance.

Bupenepherine will absolutely help you. It's a partial mu opiod receptor agonist. Although you will feel slightly off, the majority of discomfort will be lessened. BY NO MEANS STAY ON BUPENEPHORINE LONG TERM. You will absolutely have a worse problem to deal with. Even though it's a partial agonist, with long term maintenance dosing it takes control of 100% of your receptors, making it a no no. It's really not "what" drug you're on but it's affinity to bind and length of addiction. You only have so many receptors that tell you to feel good. Fill those up and you're fucked. A 3 week regimen of less then 6mg of Suboxone, dropping 2mg a week will do you. Follow up with a full antagonist such as naloxone if you must.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Spgc1984 - put so well. I've read so many people saying they have been on buprenorphine for years! I only lasted a week due to side-effects but stopped.

Then a few months later, the doctor first PRESCRIBED codeine and then oxycodone! I absolutely didn't want it, but I had reached the point where I couldn't walk. I mean I couldn't make it to the bathroom!

Opioids have their place and I have toyed with asking for Physeptone (methadone tablets) because they don't give a 'high' so no psychological addiction (or much less so) but then I kept reading about their always being shortages....

But 100% advice.

 

[MsDiz]

Many people underestimate how dependence-forming codeine is

No one is saying it's not a DFM, it's very obvious it is but using bupe to come off codeine is excessive when you can taper down the codeine. The OP has already stated they are successfully tapering down and doing a slow taper is pretty wise.

Codeine is not going to be easy to withdraw from but its a hell of a lot better than then having to withdraw from bupe.

 

[AlsoTapered]

No one is saying it's not a DFM, it's very obvious it is but using bupe to come off codeine is excessive when you can taper down the codeine. The OP has already stated they are successfully tapering down and doing a slow taper is pretty wise.

Codeine is not going to be easy to withdraw from but its a hell of a lot better than then having to withdraw from bupe.

Which is why I suggested only using buprenorphine for a short time. Both drugs have pitfalls.

Also, just because YOU found codeine to be 'peanuts' doesn't mean it automatically means it is for others.

 

[MsDiz]

Which is why I suggested only using buprenorphine for a short time. Both drugs have pitfalls.

Also, just because YOU found codeine to be 'peanuts' doesn't mean it automatically means it is for others.

I didn't say that, I said that compared to OP's withdrawal from tramadol that it isn't as bad. Tramadol has a dual withdrawal as it has SNRI properties and I was being encouraging and telling the OP that if they managed to go through the tramadol withdrawal that they would manage codeine easier after tapering down.

Suggesting someone who's addicted to codeine to take a more powerful drug and expect them to just stop is unreasonable especially given the information that's been provided by the OP in the thread. Just because YOU could stop it doesn't mean others have that willpower.

Maybe read the thread before making assumptions.

 

[AlsoTapered]

Again, as you pointed out, Tramadol isn't codeine. I didn't make assumptions, my experiences mean I'm all to aware of how different the 2 can be. But i also noted that was my personal experience.

I DID also detail that HR agencies don't seem to recognise the difference and that possibly much lower doses of bup are appropriate. But again, I could only state that it was my personal experience.

Nobody can state that 1 given compound is more potent than another. I noted that in certain ethnic groups, almost 100% of codeine is converted to morphine.

So all I am able to do is give MY personal experience, which I did. Or maybe you didn't read my post? If that is wrong then most certainly I must correct it.

 

[MsDiz]

Again, as you pointed out, Tramadol isn't codeine. I didn't make assumptions, my experiences mean I'm all to aware of how different the 2 can be. But i also noted that was my personal experience.

I DID also detail that HR agencies don't seem to recognise the difference and that possibly much lower doses of bup are appropriate. But again, I could only state that it was my personal experience.

Nobody can state that 1 given compound is more potent than another. I noted that in certain ethnic groups, almost 100% of codeine is converted to morphine.

So all I am able to do is give MY personal experience, which I did. Or maybe you didn't read my post? If that is wrong then most certainly I must correct it.

I responded to the OP after he asked what my experience was.

I'm also not going to derail this thread any further.

 

[Panels123]

I responded to the OP after he asked what my experience was.

I'm also not going to derail this thread any further.

You helped, thank you.

I'm not touching Bup because I take diazepam and the taper is going well so far.

I'm down to half my original dose and I'm now taking 2 doses a day, rather than 3.

 

[Panels123]

Which is why I suggested only using buprenorphine for a short time. Both drugs have pitfalls.

Also, just because YOU found codeine to be 'peanuts' doesn't mean it automatically means it is for others.

I'm on benzos so I'm not touching bupe when I'm doing this outside a clinical setting.

I've already halved my dose and I'm taking 2 doses a day, instead of the 3 I was taking.

The way I'm going is the way I plan to continue.

 

[MsDiz]

You helped, thank you.

I'm not touching Bup because I take diazepam and the taper is going well so far.

I'm down to half my original dose and I'm now taking 2 doses a day, rather than 3.

That's such good news, you're doing amazing! Keep up the hard work and we are here if you need us! I really am so happy for you!