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Chewing Fresh Kratom VS. ingesting dried Kratom?

CmonYouShouldKnowBetter said:
No one discredited science, mate. And I didnt claim that mit was the only alkaloid. YOU asked which one has an opiate effect. Mitragynine is the alkaloid responsible for the opioid affinity - it metablizes to 7oH in your stomach.. Rather than anedoctally trying 3 different colors, grab the alkaloid profile lab certs and compare those.

Take a read through this entire thread. I have linked ample evidence including first hand accounts and true science. The differences you are referring to are related to batch, not strain. When you say "they prepare the kratom..." that's me, my friend. I grow and process kratom. As well as broker it for other farmers here in Indonesia.
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Right, which is why I said the nomenclature is called strains but it's ultimately preparation method, batches and plant differences - as you know differing soils and growing conditions still produce noticeable differences. You could say the same about weed - it is Cannabis sativa for instance but many genetic profiles exist for that one plant which renders strains.
 
CmonYouShouldKnowBetter said:
Ah! it was not you that said it - the point stands though - I was not claiming whatever it is you are going off about. Chill bro - not everything has to be a kneejerk reaction argument.
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I'm not being unreasonable were having a discussion backing our points, but you said I asked something I didn't so I was confused.

I value your experience with kratom and would love to learn more, I just know after years of taking it that what's marketed as different strains actually does produce differences in effect. However strains is probably not the best name for it. To those who say all kratom is equal is just nonsensical.
 
OrbitalCombustion said:
I know as much as I can about the plant and have for years.
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OrbitalCombustion said:
I'm not being unreasonable were having a discussion backing our points, but you said I asked something I didn't so I was confused.

I value your experience with kratom and would love to learn more, I just know after years of taking it that what's marketed as different strains actually does produce differences in effect. However strains is probably not the best name for it. To those who say all kratom is equal is just nonsensical.
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Ya i was confused on who i was replying to but then you went kinda crazy thinking I discounted the other alkaloids - I did not.

AT the end of the day - when you compare the alkaloid profiles of different colors - there is only very slight differences (if any). FOR ME - i feel no difference from batch to batch but anedoctally - many people do. Placebo? Maybe. But as a harm reductionist, I have to go with the science and all we really have are lab certs and Dr. McCurdy's research.

Kratom is marketed on lies. "Maeng Da" and "Bali" dont mean anything and we really dont even have much variation in what farms it comes from. The truth is that most of the kratom being vended in EU and the US is coming from the same region in Indonesia. A huge portion of the vendors are selling the exact same shit. Its almost a Monopoly. And due to the unfair trade, the quality has seriously declined in the last 6 years. SO much so that the drying process doesnt even make a difference anymore.
 
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CmonYouShouldKnowBetter said:
Ya i was confused on who i was replying to but then you went kinda crazy thinking I discounted the other alkaloids - I did not.

AT the end of the day - when you compare the alkaloid profiles of different colors - there is only very slight differences (if any). FOR ME - i feel no difference from batch to batch but anedoctally - many people do. Placebo? Maybe. But as a harm reductionist, I have to go with the science and all we really have are lab certs and Dr. McCurdy's research.

Kratom is marketed on lies. "Maeng Da" and "Bali" dont mean anything and we really dont even have much variation in what farms it comes from. The truth is that most of the kratom being vended in EU and the US is coming from the same region in Indonesia. A huge portion of the vendors are selling the exact same shit. Its almost a Monopoly. And due to the unfair trade, the quality has seriously declined in the last 6 years. SO much so that the drying process doesnt even make a difference anymore.
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Never understood people who tout the placebo argument its a cop out, our body is our greatest instrument I think I would know how something effects me. Everyone has unique biological and psychological underpinnings which give them their unique experiences. I know for a fact if I take two different things how those differ.
 
OrbitalCombustion said:
Never understood people who tout the placebo argument its a cop out, our body is our greatest instrument I think I would know how something effects me. Everyone has unique biological and psychological underpinnings which give them their unique experiences. I know for a fact if I take two different things how those differ.
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Again, anecdote vs science. Honestly at this point - it seems you just want to argue any point you can. I'm not interested in that. Try to enjoy your day, mate

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The neuroscience of placebo effects: connecting context, learning and health

Placebo effects are beneficial effects that are attributable to the brain–mind responses to the context in which a treatment is delivered rather than to the specific actions of the drug. They are mediated by diverse processes — including ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
link.springer.com

The power of the placebo - Current Allergy and Asthma Reports

The placebo is much more than a control medicine in a clinical trial. The placebo response is the largest component of any allergy treatment and consists of two components: nonspecific effects (eg, natural recovery) and a “true placebo effect” that is the psychological therapeutic effect of the...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
 
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To be fair, anecdotal drug experiences have value and should not be discounted entirely, in particular harm reduction anecdotes. Just in a general sense.

Personally I can feel quite a significant difference between kratom batches, which cannot possibly be a 10 year long placebo effect, although placebo does have something to do with how I would subjectively rate certain batches.
 
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Snafu in the Void said:
To be fair, anecdotal drug experiences have value and should not be discounted entirely, in particular harm reduction anecdotes. Just in a general sense.
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100. But this was in reference to pharmacological difference that are extremely minor. The problem is that these vendors and users claim that switching strains will keep tolerance low which is COMPLETELY against harm reduction. You cannot mitigate opioid tolerance by taking more of the same substance, no matter how it was dried. IN that regard - it is vital that we dont rely on people claiming there are major differences between strains or colors. The mechanism of action is the same and according to true lab results and actual research, so are the alkaloid profiles.
 
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CmonYouShouldKnowBetter said:
100. But this was in reference to pharmacological difference that are extremely minor. The problem is that these vendors and users claim that switching strains will keep tolerance low which is COMPLETELY against harm reduction. You cannot mitigate opioid tolerance by taking more of the same substance, no matter how it was dried. IN that regard - it is vital that we dont rely on people claiming there are major differences between strains or colors. The mechanism of action is the same and according to true lab results and actual research, so are the alkaloid profiles.
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How is telling people to switch strains, instead of raising their dose to combat tolerance, against harm reduction?

Anyways, I see what you are saying, but I'm fairly certain there are some non-opioid sedative alkaloids, as well as non-opioid stimulant alkaloids in red and green/white, respectively.

This is why switching strains *seems* to lower tolerance. Those alkaloids are not dependent on MOR, and thus not subject to opioid tolerance.

Switching strains does not lower tolerance, you are right. But it does bring some enjoyment back to kratom for people. I loved switching 'strains', but the novelty of whatever new alkaloids fades after a day or two.

I usually blend 2 or 3 'strains' these days, so switching doesn't work for me like it used to.

Of course, I'm just speculating. But with me being a connoisseur of sedative drugs, there is definitely something in red 'strains' that is sedating, but not an opioid. It's possibly due to serotonergic effects. It feels like neither opioid or GABA related.
 
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Snafu in the Void said:
How is telling people to switch strains, instead of raising their dose to combat tolerance, against harm reduction?

Anyways, I see what you are saying, but I'm fairly certain there are some non-opioid sedative alkaloids, as well as non-opioid stimulant alkaloids in red and green/white, respectively.

This is why switching strains *seems* to lower tolerance. Those alkaloids are not dependent on MOR, and thus not subject to opioid tolerance.

Switching strains does not lower tolerance, you are right. But it does bring some enjoyment back to kratom for people. I loved switching 'strains', but the novelty of whatever new alkaloids fades after a day or two.

I usually blend 2 or 3 'strains' these days, so switching doesn't work for me like it used to.

Of course, I'm just speculating. But with me being a connoisseur of sedative drugs, there is definitely something in red 'strains' that is sedating, but not an opioid. It's possibly due to serotonergic effects. It feels like neither opioid or GABA related.
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The serotonin activity is 5HT affinity at 2a and 1c ( I could stand to be corrected on the 5HT1c, it may be 5HT1b?)

Im talking about the notion that keeping opioid tolerance low can be achieved by taking another "strain". That is BS rhetoric that vendors use to keep people buying more. Abstinence would be the correct answer on how to lower tolerance, not take more. Ya sure there are some minor alkaloids but the majority of kratom users are using it for pain relief (MOR affinity). Would a harm reductionist tell someone taking traditional opiates that they can keep tolerance low by switching brands?
 
CmonYouShouldKnowBetter said:
Would a harm reductionist tell someone taking traditional opiates that they can keep tolerance low by switching brands?
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No... but I know a few people who take pharma opioids that would debate this, lol. The whole generic vs brand name oxy thing.

People who use opioids are often deluded by self induced placebo and obsessed with potentiation techniques that don't work.
 
Been trying kratom as a tea not experiencing anything. I tried mixing it with damiana leaf too, nothing.
 
BergenRichNYC said:
I've tried 2 tea spoons of chopped kratom leaves, 10oz cup of hot water. NO, no citric acid. Can I us lemon juice?
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I'm not familiar with how much 2 teaspoons is, but if you don't get effects at all from 4 or 5g you have bunk of super weak kratom. Try using tablespoons.

I've never used crushed leaf but it should be just as potent as powder.

Kratom alkaloids aren't very water soluble at normal pH, adding acid helps it absorb into the water when making tea. Yes, lemon or lime juice will work perfectly (that is citric acid). Also don't boil it, just simmer for 15-20 minutes.
 
i have chewed fresh leaves in Asia and would drink the tea. I never done dried ingest. The chewing the leaves is more of a caffiene stimulant social buzz while drinking is totally different.

Using an acidic juice to cook the tea or drink. I suggest going to an asian supermarket and getting palm nectar juice bottles as your base for the TEA. this is the proper way to make it,

In Asia they also mix in bottles of bendryl aka diphenylhydramine into the tea. This is the best way to ingest kratom tea.

Boil the fresh kratom leaves in palm nectar juice bottles and add in two bottles of diphenylhydramine for a great buzz.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
In Asia they also mix in bottles of bendryl aka diphenylhydramine into the tea. This is the best way to ingest kratom tea.

Boil the fresh kratom leaves in palm nectar juice bottles and add in two bottles of diphenylhydramine for a great buzz.
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What.... no
 
I'm sure it is a unique buzz, but it's not "the best way to take kratom"... and "2 bottles" of American sized benadryl would give you delusional psychosis, put you in the hospital, or worse.
 
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