Chewing Fresh Kratom VS. ingesting dried Kratom?

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

And do you know anything about why kratom quality has gone down so much, especially in the last 2-3 years? I just assumed it was due to extreme demand from the US, so farmers harvest less than optimal kratom or add bad stuff to meet quotas.

It the demand and the unfair trade. Fillers such as non-kratom leaves and corn husks are being used on a massive scale and lab certs arent testing for them. These farmers are getting $1 to $3 per kilo. They are starving - they will do whatever they have to. Also, the trees are being harvested too young - again, demand

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

Yeah, I know it's kinda sketchy. I'm wondering if they sterilize it. This crappy AKA brand 'Happy Hippo' claims they sterilize all their kratom. I've never heard any other vendor make that claim.

Got I hate HH. They pay the supplier $7 per kilo and charge $200 for it. They may "sterilize" it by GAMMA but they sure dont have the certs to prove it.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

Got I hate HH. They pay the supplier $7 per kilo and charge $200 for it. They may "sterilize" it by GAMMA but they sure dont have the certs to prove it.

cmon

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

Technically there is a difference. Red strains can sometimes have a red hue, although it appears brownish to me (I have minor red/green colorblindness). Red strains have a prominent red vein while growing, hence the name.

But the dried/processed stuff that is very clearly red in color is fermented, yes.

In response to the red vein

 

[G_Chem]

It’s cool to actually have someone who grows Kratom in Indonesia here to answer some questions. Hope you stick around for awhile @CmonYouShouldKnowBetter

-GC

 

[Snafu in the Void]

In response to the red vein

Pretty good synopsis, and I have no doubt the vast majority of kratom sent to the US is made this way, but I think some generalizations are being made by the source(s) of this info, outside a scientific lense.

I'm not yet convinced that all kratom leaf is the same, and the only augmentation to alkaloid profile is due to the drying/fermenting process.

Variable sunlight, rain, age of plant, age of growth, and soil nutrients all change the the chemical make up of a plant-- maybe not always significantly, but kratom has 50+ alkaloids other than mitragynine that they aren't measuring.

Any kratom head knows that higher mitragynine doesn't equate to better effects. All the best batches I've ever enjoyed never had the highest mitragynine %.

Does a 1 year old tree planted on a farm have the same profile as a 25 year old tree in the wild?

Anyways, a bit semantical and wandering off from the original topic.

I do sort of question how he says white strains are created by sprinkling in some vein to make it stimulating. I've had isolated kratom vein, I wouldn't describe it as stimulating and didn't have the unique mood boost of white kratom. Maybe I was sold bunk or wasn't even vein at all.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

Does a 1 year old tree planted on a farm have the same profile as a 25 year old tree in the wild?

75% of the kratom coming into EU and the US is plantation. **edit - this is a good estimate but its probably even higher

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I do sort of question how he says white strains are created by sprinkling in some vein to make it stimulating. I've had isolated kratom vein, I wouldn't describe it as stimulating and didn't have the unique mood boost of white kratom. Maybe I was sold bunk or wasn't even vein at all.

We ran lab test on stem and vein for the 9 main alkaloids - nothing found, nada, zip. This is what Ive seen: RED = fermented, GREEN = dried indoors, out of light, WHITE = dried outdoors in the sun. I dont grow or process kratom commercially. I just have my own small collection of 5 trees but I can attest that leaving the stems in do NOT make anything whiter.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

Pretty good synopsis, and I have no doubt the vast majority of kratom sent to the US is made this way, but I think some generalizations are being made by the source(s) of this info, outside a scientific lense.

Scientifically: here is a PhD on the matter

 

[OrbitalCombustion]

Which is better? And by "better" I mean "which feels the most like an opiate"?

Also, has anyone tried Fermented Kratom? How was it?

One more question: Overnight, cold-brewed Kratom tea, or rapid ready, hot-brewed tea?

I also just thought of a question just now: can you ferment Poppy pods? Would it result in stronger Poppy straw?

As I understand it red is fermented and gives me that a good opioid buzz compared to non-fermented. I can't even touch green strains it is too energizing and anxiety ridden for me.

Have you heard of red bubble tea? You can freeze the kratom mixture and drink the next day. The times I've done it felt a bit more potent than just mixing and drinking.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

Have you heard of red bubble tea? You can freeze the kratom mixture and drink the next day. The times I've done it felt a bit more potent than just mixing and drinking.

I think it's somewhat pointless. I've never felt any substantial difference with red bubble method, seemed less effective than making hot tea. Just soaking your dose in some citric or acetic acid for 5 min before drinking produces the same result in my experience.

Theoretically, formation of ice crystals in plant material will rupture the plant cell walls, allowing the alkaloids to absorb quicker... however, when kratom is so finely ground our body's stomach acid is powerful enough to break the cell wall within seconds.

I tried it a dozen times and concluded it was more or less a waste of time. It makes the dose kick in like 2 min faster... for 10 min of worth of work/prep.

 

[OrbitalCombustion]

I think it's somewhat pointless. I've never felt any substantial difference with red bubble method, seemed less effective than making hot tea. Just soaking your dose in some citric or acetic acid for 5 min before drinking produces the same result in my experience.

Theoretically, formation of ice crystals in plant material will rupture the plant cell walls, allowing the alkaloids to absorb quicker... however, when kratom is so finely ground our body's stomach acid is powerful enough to break the cell wall within seconds.

I tried it a dozen times and concluded it was more or less a waste of time.

Agreed I only did it a few times and always just drank the mixture as is. No patience for that or any tea method. I just take extracts now.

 

[darvocet21]

Red strains ARE fermented though. Thats what makes them red
The substancial difference in fresh vs dried is the opioid affinity caused by oxidation

I was researching this and came across an article about Native Thai Kratom use. The preference was for "green" vein varieties among rural people with ready access to fresh Kratom trees

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I was researching this and came across an article about Native Thai Kratom use. The preference was for "green" vein varieties among rural people with ready access to fresh Kratom trees

For sure! Indonesians only use "greens" as well. Kratom should be green - it means it was processed in the freshest way possible

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

As I understand it red is fermented and gives me that a good opioid buzz compared to non-fermented. I can't even touch green strains it is too energizing and anxiety ridden for me.

Have you heard of red bubble tea? You can freeze the kratom mixture and drink the next day. The times I've done it felt a bit more potent than just mixing and drinking.

None is "better" in that way. Kratom is kratom - it all contains mitragynine. There's good quality and bad but all these silly strain names and colors dont indicate anything at all

 

[OrbitalCombustion]

None is "better" in that way. Kratom is kratom - it all contains mitragynine. There's good quality and bad but all these silly strain names and colors dont indicate anything at all

Not true at all and not sure why people keep saying this. Kratom is literally a slew of alkaloids not just Mitra and 70H-mitra. Which means those variegated preparations have different effects. The variation in effect from the literally 100s of different kratom strains and brands I've tried vary widely. Even full spectrum extracts will capture these other alkaloids which gives you an effect that represents the totality of the plant. To say it just contains Mitra by itself goes against basic science and knowledge of this plant. It's like saying cannabis is just THC and nothing else which we clearly know is not true.

They prepare the kratom in different ways which is where the strain nomenclature comes from. Please stop discrediting science and human experience by saying strains are all the same, go buy a red, white and green strain and try them yourself you should notice a difference. Some people who aren't experienced with drugs or inebriating substances don't have the foundation to describe the difference which I understand completely my brother is like this but plenty of us who are in tune with how substances affect our bodies can write all day long about the variations.

Read this from a research publication:

Kratom produces more than 40 structurally related alkaloids, but most studies have focused on just two of these, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine. Here, we profiled 53 commercial kratom products using untargeted LC–MS metabolomics, revealing two distinct chemotypes that contain different levels of the alkaloid speciofoline. Both chemotypes were confirmed with DNA barcoding to be M. speciosa.To evaluate the biological relevance of variable speciofoline levels in kratom, we compared the opioid receptor binding activity of speciofoline, mitragynine, and 7-hydroxymitragynine. Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine function as partial agonists of the human µ-opioid receptor, while speciofoline does not exhibit measurable binding affinity at the µ-, δ- or ƙ-opioid receptors. Importantly, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine demonstrate functional selectivity for G-protein signaling, with no measurable recruitment of β-arrestin. Overall, the study demonstrates the unique binding and functional profiles of the kratom alkaloids, suggesting potential utility for managing pain, but further studies are needed to follow up on these in vitro findings.

 

[OrbitalCombustion]

None is "better" in that way. Kratom is kratom - it all contains mitragynine. There's good quality and bad but all these silly strain names and colors dont indicate anything at all

After workers harvest the leaves, they go through a drying (and sometimes a fermentation) process before they are ground into a powder or packaged as crushed leaf.

There are three colors of Kratom leaf strains: Red, green, and white. Sometimes the color of the strain refers to which farm the Kratom comes from or some other arbitrary selection. Most of the time the color of the strains – red, white, or green – relates directly to its drying process and the amount of UV light it gets as it dries or ferments.

Red vein Kratom absorbs the most UV light, resulting in its darker hue. Green vein Kratom spends time under UV lamps or outside sunlight, as well as time inside, away from heat and light. White vein Kratom is not subjected to any UV light at all; hence it’s light coloration.

There are ways to ferment the Kratom leaves after the drying process that results in increased amounts of the coveted alkaloids. Fermentation is a process in which the leaves are sealed into bags and left to ferment before being thoroughly dried and ground into powder. This also contributes to red vein Kratom’s rich, dark color.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

Not true at all and not sure why people keep saying this. Kratom is literally a slew of alkaloids not just Mitra and 70H-mitra. Which means those variegated preparations have different effects. The variation in effect from the literally 100s of different kratom strains and brands I've tried vary widely. Even full spectrum extracts will capture these other alkaloids which gives you an effect that represents the totality of the plant. To say it just contains Mitra by itself goes against basic science and knowledge of this plant. It's like saying cannabis is just THC and nothing else which we clearly know is not true.

They prepare the kratom in different ways which is where the strain nomenclature comes from. Please stop discrediting science and human experience by saying strains are all the same, go buy a red, white and green strain and try them yourself you should notice a difference. Some people who aren't experienced with drugs or inebriating substances don't have the foundation to describe the difference which I understand completely my brother is like this but plenty of us who are in tune with how substances affect our bodies can write all day long about the variations.

Read this from a research publication:

Kratom produces more than 40 structurally related alkaloids, but most studies have focused on just two of these, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine. Here, we profiled 53 commercial kratom products using untargeted LC–MS metabolomics, revealing two distinct chemotypes that contain different levels of the alkaloid speciofoline. Both chemotypes were confirmed with DNA barcoding to be M. speciosa.To evaluate the biological relevance of variable speciofoline levels in kratom, we compared the opioid receptor binding activity of speciofoline, mitragynine, and 7-hydroxymitragynine. Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine function as partial agonists of the human µ-opioid receptor, while speciofoline does not exhibit measurable binding affinity at the µ-, δ- or ƙ-opioid receptors. Importantly, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine demonstrate functional selectivity for G-protein signaling, with no measurable recruitment of β-arrestin. Overall, the study demonstrates the unique binding and functional profiles of the kratom alkaloids, suggesting potential utility for managing pain, but further studies are needed to follow up on these in vitro findings.

No one discredited science, mate. And I didnt claim that mit was the only alkaloid. YOU asked which one has an opiate effect. Mitragynine is the alkaloid responsible for the opioid affinity - it metablizes to 7oH in your stomach.. Rather than anedoctally trying 3 different colors, grab the alkaloid profile lab certs and compare those.

Take a read through this entire thread. I have linked ample evidence including first hand accounts and true science. The differences you are referring to are related to batch, not strain. When you say "they prepare the kratom..." that's me, my friend. I grow and process kratom. As well as broker it for other farmers here in Indonesia.

 

[OrbitalCombustion]

No one discredited science, mate. And I didnt claim that mit was the only alkaloid. YOU asked which one has an opiate effect. Mitragynine is the alkaloid responsible for the opioid affinity - it metablizes to 7oH in your stomach.. Rather than anedoctally trying 3 different colors, grab the alkaloid profile lab certs and compare those.

Take a read through this entire thread. I have linked ample evidence including first hand accounts and true science. The differences you are referring to are related to batch, not strain. When you say "they prepare the kratom..." that's me, my friend. I grow and process kratom. As well as broker it for other farmers here in Indonesia.

I absolutely did not ask which alkaloid is responsible lol show me where I asked anything. I know as much as I can about the plant and have for years. You putting words in my mouth.

 

[CmonYouShouldKnowBetter]

I absolutely did not ask which alkaloid is responsible lol show me where I asked anything. I know as much as I can about the plant and have for years. You putting words in my mouth.

Ah! it was not you that said it - the point stands though - I was not claiming whatever it is you are going off about. Chill bro - not everything has to be a kneejerk reaction argument.