Ayahuasca Ceremony without a Shaman

[Ismene]

I'm interested - what MAOI do you take with the oral DMT? Do you take regular, powdered/crystal DMT, or do you use a plant of some kind?

You mention nausea - does it persist throughout the experience, or does it cease once you purge?

Usually freebase DMT crystals and moclobemide as the maoi. Come-up as the DMT takes hold can be a little rough and you have to throw up but the nausea usually clears after that. And then you're in the realm of the ultimate drug - greatest bodyhigh, most psychedelic, greatest feeling of a "presence"..it's just staggering. Doesn't last as long as I'd like tho - within 60-90 mins you're coming down.

The best way I've found of experiencing oral DMT is taking moclobemide with mushrooms - lasts a little longer and no nausea. I can't tell it apart from oral DMT.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't think that a shaman is necessary. Ayahuasca is a deep and primal part of their culture, and the way they use it fits their mindset because their lives are tremendously different from ours. I don't believe it is necessary to be connected to that to have a valuable experience with a psychedelic, the experience speaks for itself and is intensely personal anyway. In general the most important things in taking psychedelics are to prepare yourself mentally and go into it with intention. A shamanic/cultural setting could certainly help to facilitate that, but you can do it on your own too.

I'd like to experience some of the natural psychedelics that have been used by indigenous cultures, like ayahuasca, with a real shaman who wasn't just part of the money-making industry that western fascination with their culture has created for them, because I'd love to be exposed to that in a genuine way. I'm sure the trip would manifest differently because of the vastly different setting and the guidance of someone who has a very different relationship to it than I do. I definitely see the value in that. I just don't think they're necessarily more valid than anyone else. The psychedelic experience is personal, it doesn't belong to any one culture.

But yeah, if, say, I had a native american friend who I became very close with, and he invited me to a peyote ceremony with his family and friends, I would absolutely go, and I'd be excited to experience a new perspective on something I already have a beautiful relationship with (mescaline anyway, I've never done peyote specifically).

You seem like you're giving it a lot of thought and planning which is good. Ayahuasca is a pretty intense thing to take for your first ever trip on anything, but I'm not going to recommend against it. Just make sure you have prepared adequately. See my reply to your other thread about set and setting. Make sure your environment is safe, private, and comfortable, make sure you're extremely comfortable with everyone there, and make sure you have a sober sitter since it's your first time (eventually if you get enough experience with tripping, a sitter isn't generally necessary, for example when I take ayahuasca I will not have a sober sitter, but I have learned how to handle psychedelics over many years and many trips). Make sure your schedule is cleared for at least a few days afterwards if possible, and that you have no obligations (for example, if you need to appear sober for someone anytime near the trip, that wouldn't be good).

 

[MetanoiaMan]

Bro, Basically Ayahuasca is so similar chemically to psilocybin that all your brain is really experiencing is high dose mushrooms. The whole Ayahuasca ceremony and Shaman may be necessary to make you feel comfortable and contained. But, really what you are paying for is the icaros and the ceremony. If you are more comfortable with them, eat an eighth of shrooms and nothing that is available at an Ayahuasca ceremony will be beyond you. Ayahuasca ceremonies are the biggest dog and pony show on earth...

 

[burn out]

Yeah - but I get that from the psychedelic itself. Not from a "shaman" talking to me about it in return for paying him money.

So then don't go to a shaman if its not your thing.

What kind of skills can you apply to someone elses trip? Singing icaros in the background and stuff? To be honest I'd rather pick my own music.

You see if you have to ask that, it makes me feel like you don't really know what you're talking about. Again, just because you don't have a use for something, doesn't mean no one does. One man's garbage is another man's gold. I haven't been to a shaman, but reading the psychedelic experience by Leary, Alpert and Metzner has definitely helped me get more out of my trips and understand them in new ways I hadn't thought on my own yet. That is an example of how having someone very experienced in the drug can help you get more out of your own trip.

Perhaps in some situations burn but not to tripping, the cultures and people are too different. Some guy 1000 years ago who took a psychedelic is going to believe it's God or some other superstition because that's all he had to explain it. Today I know that's all garbage. There's really not much of his belief system I can buy into.

I'm not asking you to personally buy into a shamanic worldview. But wisdom transcends belief systems. The belief system is merely a code, a language we use to speak about what lies beyond ordinary perception. You calling the shaman's beliefs garbage is tantamount to saying German is garbage, English is the only proper way to speak. The language someone speaks, whether they use the word God, or not, has nothing to do with their level of wisdom.

I'm not sure people in the past took psychedelics like that. If you look at Maria Sabina for example she wasn't like some 21st century hippie using the mushrooms as a self-improvement course. The episode I always remember is a family paid her money to "ask the mushroom" if their retarded kid was going to die or not. Maria took the mushrooms and then said "your kid is going to die". That's nothing I can apply to my trips - that's just third world superstition.

So if its not something you can apply to your trips, then don't apply it to your trips, lol. Just understand not everyone sees it the way you do, and your way isnt necessarily better. It might be better for you, but why do you feel the need to impose your views on others so much?

 

[consumer]

Bro, Basically Ayahuasca is so similar chemically to psilocybin that all your brain is really experiencing is high dose mushrooms. The whole Ayahuasca ceremony and Shaman may be necessary to make you feel comfortable and contained. But, really what you are paying for is the icaros and the ceremony. If you are more comfortable with them, eat an eighth of shrooms and nothing that is available at an Ayahuasca ceremony will be beyond you. Ayahuasca ceremonies are the biggest dog and pony show on earth...

The effects off an 1/8 oz of mushrooms in no way compare to Ayahuasca. If you think that then you have no experience with Ayahuasca

 

[Bitchniggaz]

I started my ayahuasca journey alone brewing my own medicine for a few years.
Then i stumbled upon a lady who has been working with the medicine for over a decade, trained in the jungles of peru aswell as being a member of sant daime.

She is very down to earth and nt really mystical at all, she also does lsd therapy and is open to most ideas i bring to the table.
A trained psychologist that is an expert in hallucinogens so she gets the best from both worlds, went to college in san fran in the 70´s etc.



Now i can tell you guys that drinking my own brew is very very different then the brews that she gets sent from the jungles of peru, she claims they can program the medicine with various vibrational fields to create different effects depending on why you take it.
Ive tried at least 3different brews that she has and they all gave very different experiences.

It can def be placebo but ive def felt alot more presence of something while doing ceremonies with her compared to being alone or just with friends.
I wouldnt say one way is better then the other but i really like doing it her way, she always makes some tea and sandwiches after where i can just fill up and talk about what i faced during the trip.
Its usually small gathering with 3-5people which fits me fine.

I have some friends who has been to bigger ceromonies with +30people and some dude from the amazones, these feel alot more like a cash grab since i cant see how 1shaman can guide the energies of so many people.

 

[burn out]

I started my ayahuasca journey alone brewing my own medicine for a few years.
Then i stumbled upon a lady who has been working with the medicine for over a decade, trained in the jungles of peru aswell as being a member of sant daime.

She is very down to earth and nt really mystical at all, she also does lsd therapy and is open to most ideas i bring to the table.
A trained psychologist that is an expert in hallucinogens so she gets the best from both worlds, went to college in san fran in the 70´s etc.



Now i can tell you guys that drinking my own brew is very very different then the brews that she gets sent from the jungles of peru, she claims they can program the medicine with various vibrational fields to create different effects depending on why you take it.
Ive tried at least 3different brews that she has and they all gave very different experiences.

It can def be placebo but ive def felt alot more presence of something while doing ceremonies with her compared to being alone or just with friends.
I wouldnt say one way is better then the other but i really like doing it her way, she always makes some tea and sandwiches after where i can just fill up and talk about what i faced during the trip.
Its usually small gathering with 3-5people which fits me fine.

I have some friends who has been to bigger ceromonies with +30people and some dude from the amazones, these feel alot more like a cash grab since i cant see how 1shaman can guide the energies of so many people.

It's not placebo, there really is validity to shamanic techniques. Of course, on the other hand, the placebo effect is a real effect. So if we could utilize it to bring about real changes in ourselves, whats the problem? Bottom line is, people use techniques that work and the reason shamanic techniques have survived thousands of years is because they work. Thats not to say there arent con-men, and evil greedy shamans or even that indigenous shamans are better than western folks like Stanislof Grof who pioneered his own therapeutic procedures with LSD. I would say he is a shaman, or at least our equivalent.

But yeah, the people who don't believe shamans have anything to offer anyone generally give nothing to support this other than their own arrogant opinion. Not that shaman are necessary, the plants themselves offer anyone the potential to heal themselves. But this type of healing is an art or skill, meaning you can get better or worse at it with study and practice. Shamans are people who have mastered this art (ideally, I am sure there a lot of shamans who aren't true masters just like very few american doctors are true masters at their craft).

 

[tokezu]

Now i can tell you guys that drinking my own brew is very very different then the brews that she gets sent from the jungles of peru, she claims they can program the medicine with various vibrational fields to create different effects depending on why you take it.

Afaik the thing is that not all 'ayahuasca' is made the same, but everyone seems to have their own recipe. We mostly think of a brew containing nn-DMT and a MAOI, but sometimes they use 5-MEO-DMT or even stuff like Datura and still call it 'ayahuasca'. I think a differing active compound is a much better explanation than "programming the medicine with vibrational fields", but whatever floats your boat .

Not that shaman are necessary, the plants themselves offer anyone the potential to heal themselves.

I agree... but would a shaman? The problem I have with them, is that most would probably claim that their presence is necessary for healing. Which is at best funny superstition, but at worst makes gullible people think that their only chance is to come back to these expensive retreats again and again, to get 'more healing'.

 

[Bitchniggaz]

Afaik the thing is that not all 'ayahuasca' is made the same, but everyone seems to have their own recipe. We mostly think of a brew containing nn-DMT and a MAOI, but sometimes they use 5-MEO-DMT or even stuff like Datura and still call it 'ayahuasca'. I think a differing active compound is a much better explanation than "programming the medicine with vibrational fields", but whatever floats your boat .




I agree... but would a shaman? The problem I have with them, is that most would probably claim that their presence is necessary for healing. Which is at best funny superstition, but at worst makes gullible people think that their only chance is to come back to these expensive retreats again and again, to get 'more healing'.

I know there are various additives and dmt sources they use, however ive had 3different brews with just caapi and chakruna that were very different in their effects.
I know there are many strains of caapi so that could explain it also.
Ive also had brew with chaliponga which was way different aswell.
Im not sure i buy into the whole programming of the brew either, but i can def tell a major difference from the ayahusca that has been made in the jungle compared to whatever ive brewed myself, even if i use the same plants.

 

[JackARoe]

That it's a purely personal journey between yourself and the psychedelic? Why let a stranger contaminate it with his half-baked beliefs?

Good stuff in this thread. As soon as I heard of the notion of "Guru" or "Shaman" I knew I had grown past it, based off of what Ram Dass had written in Be Here Now. YOU are the Guru (or Shaman). We all are. Tap into your deep self and listen.

I do think some people need guidance and form to latch on to for footing, but eventually to go real deep it has to be you and the psychedelic or you and your life journey. It is too personal to look to someone else for answers. Some people that post here could probably be considered Shamans if looked at it right.

I was never one to form belief systems around my thousands of trips over many years. I believe that kept me sane. Nope, no need for a Shaman for me or no need for old time beliefs. One of them that makes me chuckle is smoked Salvia is disrespectful. Yet Salvia introduced itself to the rest of the world through smoking. So how is that disrespectful? It always treated me well and taught a lot that way. So the notion of taking ayahuasca outside it's natural habitat and without a Shaman as being wrong is just plain wrong in my opinion.

Trusting yourself and having confidence in yourself is heading towards the highest level of being. Never give that power over to someone else because of beliefs.

 

[Xorkoth]

There's also something to be said for the way in which humans use ritual to aid in altering mental states. You see it in all world religions and to some extent even in our day-to-day lives. You could call it the placebo effect, but that's a powerful thing. It helps us to have a framework for which to place an experience, in order for us to more easily frame our minds into a specific direction. So an amazonian shaman's techniques are going to do the most for someone with a full cultural understanding/immersion of them (ie, someone in that same culture), or to someone who goes into the experience being open to and accepting of that cultural context. If someone went into it believing it all to be silly or superfluous, then it's fairly likely the ritual will not provide any additional value for them.

 

[JackARoe]

After rereading this thread and seeing what Xorkoth just posted I realized there is no cut and dry answer to some of these questions. I know there was mention of Leary, Metzner, Alpert so now I realize we all have some form of blueprint or map that we follow that does come from outside ourselves. A lot of us do take the wisdom from others experience as well as use rituals to guide us. I can see that just lighting a candle during the experience is sort of doing what others do. So it is never just between the person and psychedelic. We do follow in others footsteps at times. So there does have to be a balance. Take what you need from others and trail blaze yourself too. Just don't form solid, end all be all, belief systems. Keep an open mind.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah, and if you participate in the online community in any way, for example you read a bunch of reports on Erowid before you tried a drug, you're also probably pulling in elements of the trips of those others because you have set your expectations a certain way or at least certain ideas of what might happen are planted in your mind. In this way we have built up a cultural context of our own for these drugs. It's really interesting to me to talk to people who took psychedelics without really having anyone else's context for them previously implanted. But there is also value in that implantation because if someone has already learned to get something useful out of the experience, then there is probably something valuable in their cultural context, and maybe you can learn something from that. I for one am interested to see what perspectives I could gain from a cultural context that is thousands of years old. Ours is very young, and unique, and others are unique as well.

 

[Ismene]

You calling the shaman's beliefs garbage is tantamount to saying German is garbage, English is the only proper way to speak. The language someone speaks, whether they use the word God, or not, has nothing to do with their level of wisdom.

Language has a scientific basis tho - this is simply some guys opinion about a subjective experience. And the knowledge he's basing his ideas on is pretty limited and he's taking money for it which perverts it even more.

I remember seeing the Piers Gibbon documentary where he went to the "wise" shaman and this shaman really got into the role - he was saying "Oh you need to take ayahuasca every night for the next 40 days and take tobacco juice on top of it" like some strict schoolteacher. As if he was more important than the ayahuasca itself. That's the role you force these people into by going to them on bended knee. I don't know why people need the "wise master" in something like psychedelics. To me the psychedelic is about you and the drug - nothing else matters.

has nothing to do with their level of wisdom.

What wisdom can he offer tho? If I'm deep in an emotion remembering someone I loved who died is the shaman going to come over and start talking in my ear? I don't want anyones wisdom, that's never healed me. The only thing that healed me was crying while high on mushrooms and feeling the comfort and peace of mind that gives you. The mushrooms healed me all by themselves - I never needed anything but them. If anybody else feels the need for a talking therapy with a shaman then that's fine but it's not for me. I like it one on one with the psychedelic.

 

[Ismene]

It is too personal to look to someone else for answers.

That's the key thing jack - how can a complete stranger come into your most personal, deepest emotion and offer you his shamanic wisdom? I'd just be tempted to tell him to be quiet. All the sober, rational "buck your ideas up" sort of psychotherapy is ok for when you're sober but when you're tripping you're in a state beyond all that shit. It's just the purest essence of who you are and how the psychedelic is taking care of you.

 

[TheBlackPirate]

Yeah, and if you participate in the online community in any way, for example you read a bunch of reports on Erowid before you tried a drug, you're also probably pulling in elements of the trips of those others because you have set your expectations a certain way or at least certain ideas of what might happen are planted in your mind. In this way we have built up a cultural context of our own for these drugs. It's really interesting to me to talk to people who took psychedelics without really having anyone else's context for them previously implanted. But there is also value in that implantation because if someone has already learned to get something useful out of the experience, then there is probably something valuable in their cultural context, and maybe you can learn something from that. I for one am interested to see what perspectives I could gain from a cultural context that is thousands of years old. Ours is very young, and unique, and others are unique as well.

Perhaps this explains how even my difficult trips are positive. My thoughts on psychedelics are mingled with the good vibes of the Grateful Dead and the idea difficult trips could be the most beneficial. After all I have enjoyed every experience with classical psychedelics I have had. Could this be the result of my comforting cultural set?

 

[Saaaeif]

Which plant is the best among these
ACRB
MHRB
Chakruna?

 

[MetanoiaMan]

The effects off an 1/8 oz of mushrooms in no way compare to Ayahuasca. If you think that then you have no experience with Ayahuasca

I've actually got lots of experience with both. And by the time, DMT is metabolized it is virtually identical to psilocybin. It's old wine in new skins. So whatever experience you have with ayahuasca, is probably not to deep.

 

[burn out]

Language has a scientific basis tho

What do you mean by this? And why do you assume that because something has a "scientific bases" its better or why would you assume that I would share that assumption with you? Benzodiazepines have a "scientific bases" in treating anxiety and yet they nearly destroyed me. Shamanic drumming doesn't have a scientific bases that I know of, and yet it sure did a lot more for my anxiety problems than benzodiazepines.

this is simply some guys opinion about a subjective experience.

lol and aren't the truths and conclusions you have been arrogantly proclaiming in our discussions simply your opinion about a subjective experience? But apparently your opinion is so valuable than you can use it to make all kinds of determinations like shamanism is garbage, ego death was made up by timothy leary, religion and psychedelics must be kept apart, Ram Daas didn't know what he was talking about, no one has gone deeper than you with psychedelics, etc etc.

This tendency to take your own opinions as gospel, while disparaging and ignoring the opinions and wisdom of others, is exactly what I am talking about when I use the word arrogance. Do you see now?

And the knowledge he's basing his ideas on is pretty limited

What do you mean by this? Are you saying the knowledge on which you base your ideas on is not limited? Tell me how you became so wise and all knowing.

and he's taking money for it which perverts it even more.

Not all shamanic ceremonies are for profit and either way I think the merits of charging for these services is a whole other discussion. Suffice to say that I dont share that assumption that it automatically "perverts it even more" as you say.

I remember seeing the Piers Gibbon documentary where he went to the "wise" shaman and this shaman really got into the role - he was saying "Oh you need to take ayahuasca every night for the next 40 days and take tobacco juice on top of it" like some strict schoolteacher. As if he was more important than the ayahuasca itself. That's the role you force these people into by going to them on bended knee. I don't know why people need the "wise master" in something like psychedelics. To me the psychedelic is about you and the drug - nothing else matters.

well, maybe that attitude is why you are so ignorant and can't even reach ego death lol. As others have said, its not even possible for it to just be you and the drug we all brings pre-concieved ideas to the experience this is what Leary the called the 'set' and it seems like he was onto something because people still talk about and recognize the role of the set today. But since you are above learning from anyone else, I guess you don't know anything about

What wisdom can he offer tho?

Lol, that is the reason people go to teachers/shaman/guru/psychologist/counseler/psychologist/doctor in the first place. To see what if any wisdom they can offer. If you could know the answer beforehand, you wouldn't need to go.

If I'm deep in an emotion remembering someone I loved who died is the shaman going to come over and start talking in my ear? I don't want anyones wisdom, that's never healed me. The only thing that healed me was crying while high on mushrooms and feeling the comfort and peace of mind that gives you. The mushrooms healed me all by themselves - I never needed anything but them. If anybody else feels the need for a talking therapy with a shaman then that's fine but it's not for me. I like it one on one with the psychedelic.

So then what we been discussing all this time? I said right from the beginning, in actually the first response in the thread that I didn't think a shaman was necessary. You can trip however you want. But dont you see that even by saying how mushrooms healed you all by themselves you are providing other people with information based on your experience which they can then use? On the most fundamental level, isnt that the role of the shaman?

I have never had a shaman. Mushrooms have healed me by themselves also. They are amazing healers. And one of the things a shaman can do, is make people aware of that. I have read about shaman who told people during a ceremony that all the power to heal themself lay within them. Sometimes the role of the teacher/shaman is simply to point out to the student that they have the power to be their own teacher. But I also think that realizing you can be your own teacher doesn't necessarily mean that after that point you ignore everything everyone else has to say. We can still all learn from each other, even once we learned to trust ourselves, because sometimes other people can come to us with perspectives we have not considered.

That is sort of what is going on in this thread is it not? We all are sharing our unique perspectives and responding to each others thoughts. Why do you post here if oyu think its just between you and the drug? arent you afraid our idea will contaminate that? The ideas you are being exposed to here, aren't necessarily any different (I mean the principle is not different) than the ideas you would be exposed to if you encountered a shaman. So if you are really so against having your experiences get contaminated by others perspectives, I question how you can post here.

 

[consumer]

I've actually got lots of experience with both. And by the time, DMT is metabolized it is virtually identical to psilocybin. It's old wine in new skins. So whatever experience you have with ayahuasca, is probably not to deep.

I have lots of experience with aya, smoked dmt and mushrooms. A decent aya session is way different to taking an 1/8 oz of mushies. We will have to agree to disagree.