Ayahuasca Ceremony without a Shaman

[Saaaeif]

Hey everybody

3 friends and I have decided to take Ayahuasca
Yet, only 1 of us have tried DMT befor "smoked crystals" from MHRB, then again twice but from a Toad (mainly 5-Meo DMT)
Me and the other 2 have never been in a psychedelic trip of any sorts befor.. But we believe deeply, after Soooooooo much research and inhaling knowledge (thanks to you guys) and many other sources.. Now we deeply believe this could help us for the better.. Its just what we need, And decided to make this happen!
But we learn everyday.. And i need to be 100% sure befor i take any step forward and take my friends with me
So,
Is it safe to make an Ayahuasca Ceremony without a shaman?
And please give me any advise that could help us and guide us
Thank you so much for the great great work

 

[burn out]

it depends on what you mean by safe. it probably wont kill you or cause any permanent damage, thats for sure.

a shaman is there to provide direction and spiritual protection, kind of like a guide who knows the terrain. if you venture into the wilderness without a guide or with a poor guide, you have a much higher chance of getting lost or being attacked by wild animals. in the case of aya the wild animals are purely spiritual and cannot harm you physically. if you are intelligent and well researched and courageous, you can gain a lot from the experience without a guide. remember the worst that can happen is you have a bad trip, which isnt necessarily all bad as bad trips can also be great learning experiences.

i dont want to underplay the rirks of having a bad trip, in rare cases they be psychologically devastating. but the vast majority of the time, you will recover in a few days if not sooner.

basically, how safe it is depends on your mindset. thats what i am trying to say. if you are strong and willing to let go and learn from whatever may come, its quite safe. if you are the kind of person who freaks out and the slightest hint of danger and then dwells on bad experiences continuously after they happen and cant let anything go or move on, that it might not be so safe.

 

[CrypticArc]

just dose low your first time. ayahuasca is no joke

 

[Ismene]

I've taken ayahuasca countless times and always found it very friendly. Oral DMT is a beautiful drug apart from the nausea. I wouldn't dream of having a shaman interfere with my trip. The experience is between me and the drug - no man can come between that or tell me what he thinks.

 

[tokezu]

I wouldn't dream of having a shaman interfere with my trip.

I haven't tried oral DMT, but this would be my position too. A 'sitter' is one thing, but 'shaman' let's me think of someone arrogantly imposing on my trip, claiming to understand it better than I do myself.

OP, maybe try dividing it into two questions. 1) Do you want to experience oral DMT? 2) Do you want the setting to mimic/resemble a shamanic ritual? You can have both if you want, but don't force the shamanic aspect onto yourself, if you just want to have a psychedelic experience. I'm really not sure from your post, if you are specifically drawn to that shamanic aspect or if you just always read about ayahuasca in that context and assumed that's the only way to do it.

 

[Tranced]

Yeah I'm maybe beggining to lean away from the idea of a shaman. People who I know that do ayahuasca come back with a lot of cultural beliefs imposed upon them.

 

[Saaaeif]

Thanks alot everybody
I kniw its ko Joke and its why i want to use it! If it was a joke i wouodnt have even considered it
This is how serious i am
And yes i dont freak out easily, plus for this trip only i have learned on meditation, fractal geometry and even sacred geometry.. I knw theyre not linked but knowing more is helpful
I am deeply serious about this.. Willing to take the risk jst to heal and use aya for the good
I respect this brew.. I respect its history and i respect those who respect it ?

 

[Saaaeif]

OP, maybe try dividing it into two questions. 1) Do you want to experience oral DMT? 2) Do you want the setting to mimic/resemble a shamanic ritual? You can have both if you want, but don't force the shamanic aspect onto yourself, if you just want to have a psychedelic experience. I'm really not sure from your post, if you are specifically drawn to that shamanic aspect or if you just always read about ayahuasca in that context and assumed that's the only way to do it.[/QUOTE]

Yes my friend i would likento take it orally
Some say the brew others say capsulate them without any brewing puting half a Gm of powdered root bark in each capsule and so on..

2nd question here is very important! Thamk u
Actually it depends on my purpose.. What i want from ayahuasca is healing.. In all sorts of things
Over come addictions like cannabis and social media for instance
Also have a breakthrough which is the main reason why i want this
So the question here is this.. Can i do that on my own without a shaman? Can a sitter be there if i went through a bad trip? Guide me or handle me? And what does the sitter need to know to be helpful?
Thank u

 

[burn out]

I've taken ayahuasca countless times and always found it very friendly. Oral DMT is a beautiful drug apart from the nausea. I wouldn't dream of having a shaman interfere with my trip. The experience is between me and the drug - no man can come between that or tell me what he thinks.

I haven't tried oral DMT, but this would be my position too. A 'sitter' is one thing, but 'shaman' let's me think of someone arrogantly imposing on my trip, claiming to understand it better than I do myself.

Yeah I'm maybe beggining to lean away from the idea of a shaman. People who I know that do ayahuasca come back with a lot of cultural beliefs imposed upon them.

Why are you folks so opinionated? I think its perfectly ok to point out what you see as potential cons to using a shaman, but where do you get off thinking that whats true for you is automatically true for everyone else?

For instance, cultural beliefs imposed on them? Couldn't you look at it another way and say they were given a precious opportunity to learn the perspective of another culture? As long as you recognize that you don't have to look at everything the way the shaman does and have that become your new paradigm that I don't see what the problem is.

It's fine to point out the potential cons of using a shaman, but don't act there are no potential pros either. I have never tripped with a shaman, but I would jump at the opportunity to do so because it would be a new experience for me filled with new possibilities. If nothing else, I would consider a learning experience or a fun adventure.

If you guys are all so self sufficient that you never need anyone's elses wisdom or experience, that is wonderful. I'm just saying maybe recognize that there are also people out there who have benefited from the guidance of healers. I think that should be kept in mind before you start discouraging someone who has an interest in trying it.

 

[Ismene]

For instance, cultural beliefs imposed on them? Couldn't you look at it another way and say they were given a precious opportunity to learn the perspective of another culture?.

I'm not sure it's precious simply because it's another culture. A lot of these "cultural" ways of taking mushrooms etc are utter bullshit, bizarre half-baked religious beliefs and a pompous, arrogant atitude that "I know what ayahuasca is because I'm the shaman". I'm not buying into some guys belief system just because he has a bone through his nose and dances round the campfire singing kumbayah my lord.

If you guys are all so self sufficient that you never need anyone's elses wisdom or experience

Isn't that the whole point of the psychedelic path? That you DON'T need anyone elses opinion? That it's a purely personal journey between yourself and the psychedelic? Why let a stranger contaminate it with his half-baked beliefs?

 

[Ismene]

Actually it depends on my purpose.. What i want from ayahuasca is healing.. In all sorts of things
Over come addictions like cannabis and social media for instance
Also have a breakthrough which is the main reason why i want this
So the question here is this.. Can i do that on my own without a shaman? Can a sitter be there if i went through a bad trip? Guide me or handle me? And what does the sitter need to know to be helpful?
Thank u

That's a lot to expect from a psychedelic experience. I've never really gone the path of trying to use psychedelics like some kind of turbo-charged way of re-tooling the rest of my life. I tend to see the psychedelic experience as it's own thing seperate to the rest of my life.

I've always found oral DMT to be a super-charged version of mushrooms. It's very psychedelic and beautiful and precious in it's own right - just enjoy it for the hour or two that it lasts.

 

[Tranced]

Why are you folks so opinionated? I think its perfectly ok to point out what you see as potential cons to using a shaman, but where do you get off thinking that whats true for you is automatically true for everyone else?

Well, the OP posted a thread requesting opinions on whether or not a shaman is required for ayahuasca, and I just offered an opinion which was just a kind of general muse based on the prior few posts which most recently came to mind. I can assure you I'm not getting off on that. Do I come across that way in general?

I pretty much concur with your initial post. But at the same time, I feel like people I know have kind of came back from ayahuasca ceremonies having automatically accrued whatever the belief system of the person who administered the ayahuasca was. I just feel like this is something to bare in mind. I like Ismene's quote:

The experience is between me and the drug - no man can come between that or tell me what he thinks.

I do agree that it is a good idea to have a guide. i.e preferably a good friend who has experience of psychedelics, who you would trust to know what to do. Or a shaman; but perhaps take what I've just been saying into account. It depends on who you are and what you want.

 

[burn out]

I'm not sure it's precious simply because it's another culture. A lot of these "cultural" ways of taking mushrooms etc are utter bullshit, bizarre half-baked religious beliefs and a pompous, arrogant atitude that "I know what ayahuasca is because I'm the shaman". I'm not buying into some guys belief system just because he has a bone through his nose and dances round the campfire singing kumbayah my lord.

Have you considered the possibility that there might be other lenses through which reality can be perceived other then your own? I thought psychedelics showed people that, but I guess its only me. The irony is your attitude is itself one of arrogance. What makes you so certain that "cultural" ways of taking mushrooms are bullshit? Is it the healings that the people who took them that way received?

The idea isn't that the shaman knows better because he is a shaman. The idea is that the shaman has ideally acquired certain experiential knowledge and skills because he has practiced his craft which he learned as a part of a tradition of knowledge passed down by people before him who practiced the same craft.

We do the exact same thing in our society. Take a doctor for example. They study a body of accumulated knowledge that has been gathered and past down through prior generations and then they also practice their craft in order to become a doctor. But I guess your attitude is "I"m Ismene and I am not buying the idea that a doctor knows anything I don't just because he has a stethoscope around his neck and a framed piece of paper on his wall. I am going to perform open heart surgery on myself because healing doesn't take any practice or craftmanship. I am sure I am just as good as the guy who has dedicated his life to this and why would I want to contaminate my medical procedures with someone elses ideas anyway?

Isn't that the whole point of the psychedelic path? That you DON'T need anyone elses opinion? That it's a purely personal journey between yourself and the psychedelic? Why let a stranger contaminate it with his half-baked beliefs?

Why not? You're the one preaching. I think exploring different beliefs and various approaches to problems can be very useful. Of course sometimes it can also be useful to do what you're saying and listen to yourself only. Everything in its season. We just have a different attitude. For me, opportunity to trip with a shaman:

my reaction: Oh how wonderful. I've never done that before. I can't wait to explore this new experience.

your attitude: OMG stay away what if we get contaminated!


What if someone wasn't receiving the sort of healing they were desiring taking psychedelics on their own, so they consulted a shaman and the shaman helped them to achieve the results they were looking for. Where would the problem be? Should we all be hermits in order that we don't contaminate each other with our differing ideas? Better get off this forum. I must warn you, my ideas have the potential to contaminate your future psychedelic excursions.

 

[burn out]

Well, the OP posted a thread requesting opinions on whether or not a shaman is required for ayahuasca, and I just offered an opinion which was just a kind of general muse based on the prior few posts which most recently came to mind. I can assure you I'm not getting off on that. Do I come across that way in general?

I pretty much concur with your initial post. But at the same time, I feel like people I know have kind of came back from ayahuasca ceremonies having automatically accrued whatever the belief system of the person who administered the ayahuasca was. I just feel like this is something to bare in mind. I like Ismene's quote:



I do agree that it is a good idea to have a guide. i.e preferably a good friend who has experience of psychedelics, who you would trust to know what to do. Or a shaman; but perhaps take what I've just been saying into account. It depends on who you are and what you want.

Your right, I think it is something to bear in mind. That you don't necessarily have to approach psychedelics in the exact way your shaman did and take everything they say as gospel and form a new belief system around it. I can see how some people would be tempted to do that.

The way I see things these days, I see multiple valid ways of looking at everything so I can accept what a shaman tells me but without giving up my inner sense of guidance or truth. I just add to it.

 

[consumer]

Why are you folks so opinionated? I think its perfectly ok to point out what you see as potential cons to using a shaman, but where do you get off thinking that whats true for you is automatically true for everyone else?

For instance, cultural beliefs imposed on them? Couldn't you look at it another way and say they were given a precious opportunity to learn the perspective of another culture? As long as you recognize that you don't have to look at everything the way the shaman does and have that become your new paradigm that I don't see what the problem is.

It's fine to point out the potential cons of using a shaman, but don't act there are no potential pros either. I have never tripped with a shaman, but I would jump at the opportunity to do so because it would be a new experience for me filled with new possibilities. If nothing else, I would consider a learning experience or a fun adventure.

If you guys are all so self sufficient that you never need anyone's elses wisdom or experience, that is wonderful. I'm just saying maybe recognize that there are also people out there who have benefited from the guidance of healers. I think that should be kept in mind before you start discouraging someone who has an interest in trying it.

Excellent post. I totally agree.

 

[tokezu]

Burn out, I didn't want to come across as judging people who want to experience a shamanic ritual, but simply wanted to state that I can't imagine feeling comfortable in such a setting myself. (Although I have to say that my impression is, that there is a whole lot "noble savage"-thinking in a lot of westerners approach to ayahuasca.)


Saaaeif, as I said, I don't have experience with DMT, so I can't really help you with specifics there. I would say that one very important thing is, to have a sober person around when you do this. Whether you call that person a shaman, a guide or a sitter would probably depend on how much of an active role you want them to play in influencing your trip. I am more or less on the same side with Ismene (I think) in that I believe it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to let another person tell you 'where to go', because even if it's a shaman who has done this for 30 years IMO he still doesn't know anything about your trip. But then it really doesn't sound like you have a 'real' shaman available, but are just thinking about creating a similar setting, right?

Like I said, definitely have somebody sober around, ideally this person should be experienced with psychedelics, but much more important is that you can trust this person and don't have to worry about acting a little weird around them. What this person should do at the absolute minimum (and my personal opinion is that they really can't do much more anyway) is to give you some amount of reassurance. Should there suddenly be a knock on the door you know they can answer it. Should you have a difficult experience they can remind you that you took a powerful drug and that the effects WILL wear off in a couple of hours (especially with higher doses it's not unsual to lose sight of that fact). And also they can remind you that unpleasant feelings are often related to your setting, and that changing your environment, e.g. turning on the lights, changing the music or going outside can turn your trip around in seconds.

About 'healing'... it's definitely possible with or without a shaman, but threre is no guarantee of course. My advise would be to go into this experience with as few expectations as possible. I have had some insights from psychedelic experiences which helped in changing my behaviour (e.g. quitting tobacco), but these always came totally unexpected, when I was really just tripping 'to have fun'. There are many people though who find 'setting an intention' before tripping very helpful.

 

[Saaaeif]

Thanks alot Tokezo ?

 

[my3rdeye]

I don't see the point in a shaman. It's a drug i can do at home, why waste my time in south america doing something i can do at home? I would rather go to machu picchu if I am going all the way to South America. I kid of reject all religions though, i wouldn't go to an indian peyote ceremony either. IMO aya is an industry now with very little in the way of authenticity. They sell enlightenment for 5 thousand dollars

 

[weirdling]

I've taken ayahuasca countless times and always found it very friendly. Oral DMT is a beautiful drug apart from the nausea. I wouldn't dream of having a shaman interfere with my trip. The experience is between me and the drug - no man can come between that or tell me what he thinks.

I'm interested - what MAOI do you take with the oral DMT? Do you take regular, powdered/crystal DMT, or do you use a plant of some kind?

You mention nausea - does it persist throughout the experience, or does it cease once you purge?

 

[Ismene]

Have you considered the possibility that there might be other lenses through which reality can be perceived other then your own?

Yeah - but I get that from the psychedelic itself. Not from a "shaman" talking to me about it in return for paying him money.

The idea is that the shaman has ideally acquired certain experiential knowledge and skills

What kind of skills can you apply to someone elses trip? Singing icaros in the background and stuff? To be honest I'd rather pick my own music.

I think exploring different beliefs and various approaches to problems can be very useful.

Perhaps in some situations burn but not to tripping, the cultures and people are too different. Some guy 1000 years ago who took a psychedelic is going to believe it's God or some other superstition because that's all he had to explain it. Today I know that's all garbage. There's really not much of his belief system I can buy into.

What if someone wasn't receiving the sort of healing they were desiring taking psychedelics on their own, so they consulted a shaman and the shaman helped them to achieve the results they were looking for.

I'm not sure people in the past took psychedelics like that. If you look at Maria Sabina for example she wasn't like some 21st century hippie using the mushrooms as a self-improvement course. The episode I always remember is a family paid her money to "ask the mushroom" if their retarded kid was going to die or not. Maria took the mushrooms and then said "your kid is going to die". That's nothing I can apply to my trips - that's just third world superstition.