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  • EADD Moderators: axe battler | Pissed_and_messed

antidepressant interactions with recreational drugs

mydrugbuddy said:
I TRIED ALL THAT SHIT YOU MENTIONED IN MY EARLY ADULKT YEARS. I GOT BORED,. LIFE WAS BORING. I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP LECTURING ME I REALLY DO. ITS DRIVING ME MAD TO COME ON THIOS PLACE, BUT YOU GET A LECTURE INSTEAD., IT DRIVES ME INSANE WITH RAGE TO BE LECTURED BY OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE DOIUNG THE SAME THING.

FUCKING SICK OF IT.
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You're on a drug advice forum. If you think everyone is going to pat you on the back because you want to take drugs and ignore the advice of trained professionals whom have your best interests at heart, then you need to head over to 4chan and stop posting here.
 
ShopperCheck said:
You're on a drug advice forum. If you think everyone is going to pat you on the back because you want to take drugs and ignore the advice of trained professionals whom have your best interests at heart, then you need to head over to 4chan and stop posting here.
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What advice of which trained professionals are you referring to?
 
knock said:
What advice of which trained professionals are you referring to?
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I'm assuming their doctor or health professional, seeing as though you'd have to go via one of them to get prescribed anti depressants in the first place.
 
knock said:
1999 - Looking Forward
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Haha, not quite the one I was thinking of, but I suppose it'll do..

Other contenders could be: 'Daylight Again', 'So Far', 'After the Storm', 'Replay' & 'Carry On'.
 
Neither cornishman or anyone else onm here is a dr or health proffesional. I think thats what shopper check totally misunderstrands. We are all equals here, though some are more equal than otrhers. for sure., I have far more respect for some of the ppl heree than i do than many of the health workers ive met. Of course i dont expextrt a pat on the back for taking drugs, but nor do i expect to be outcast by other drug users on a drugs forum. As for stopping poisting on here, im not posting int the wider eadd until / unless my mood improves , there is a total incoherence and hypocricy here with everyone elkse saying "stop taking drugs" whilst they themeselves canbnot wait til the next trime they score. People making assumptions that are a million times away from the truth. Far too many people noit having a fucking cklue what they are talking about.

but apart from that its great. :|

Totallly bewildered by the inconsistency and sheer bullshit.

Thoise benzo rages werent me, they were the benzos, but looks like ill have to pay the consequwences for ever.
i know im fucked up. i want to take drugs but i also dont want to. isnt that every addicts dilemma ? Ill hopefully receivce support in the mental health support thread, the mental health forums, and TDS.

My dr does not give me any advise, but at least she knows better than to lecture drug uers. So has refered me to a drug treatment unit,. Some of the workwers there are fuckin brilliant whilkst a others, erm, arent. The key is for them to help you find the fire and spark inside yourself and to clear upo your own thinking,. Thats gonna be a long process for me, but fortunataley my counsellor is good, warm, sympathetic and NON JUDGEMENTAL.

Its horriblke to get a good one for a few weeks, and then that get given a shit one.
 
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It seems to me that MDB is not getting any benefit from certain posts. In particular, posts telling him to:

- stop using drugs
- seek medical advice
- listen to medical advice
- get counselling
- get help from drugs workers

are not helpful because:

- he is not going to stop using drugs
- he has already done all the other things

Also posts which are just critical are not helpful.

We are normally pretty fucking laissez-faire in EADD. I like it that way, I think most people like it that way. But it doesn't work for some threads, this is one of them. So it would be appreciated if we could keep the posts in this thread supportive and helpful rather undermining and trollish. There are many supportive and helpful posts in this thread, but there are also a lot of the other kind, it would be good to keep it to the helpful and supportive.

It's pissing me off because MDB is clearly making efforts to sort himself out, he has taken advice from here, and this could be a useful thread.
 
A big thank uou for the intervention. I have to keep my side of the bargain up too, and not respond to any baits left dangling to deliberately provoke me. That takes some doing, but my temprement i normally calm and measured, nothing at all like the MDB you saw on Phenazepam. I wondfer how many other depressed Russians who were prescribed Phenaz went through the same thing ? It must have been horrific, at least my rages were played out on line, not in real life, where real friendships and family relationships could have easily been ruined.

Scary stuff. Still, i will insist on usijng myself as a human guinea pigs ive just ordered a load of exotic sounding pharmaceuticals from India that are meant to heklp with certain things like calming you down and helping you sleep: Hydroxyzine (very calmimg), chloropromozine (turns you into an extra from "One Flew Over The Cucoos' Nest"), Atomoxetine Hydrochloride (helps with ADHD which i think i think i might have a bit of), and Dimehydrinate (aids sleep). These are an intended short term stepping stone if i finally stop taking benzos.

I should contact all the research centres in the area and ask if they want any paid volunteers for testing their new drugs. Unfortunatly im certain id be debarred due to the amount of other stuff i also take. They want fresh uncontamintated Guinea Pigs which I am very far from being. lol.
 
Ok massive post here, sorry, this area really interests me.. apologies for tl;dr!

Going to side-step a lot of this debate - I would have a lot to say re taking drugs while fixing mental health but most points have been made and while I always want to get the HR info in, unsolicited advice tends to have the effect it has had in this thread.. just remember how easy it is to lose sight of what is the right thing for you MDB, when you are looking at yourself from your own perspective it's hard to see clearly. Doesn't mean outside perspectives are always more accurate, but sometimes it's good to hear them even if you then think what a load of bollocks. Helps clarify things a little. If that makes sense? I've done so many silly, ill-advised, contrary and downright self-destructive things that have led me to a very dark place and I would not wish anyone else to follow, so am itching to give a load of unwanted advice, but I will refrain, promise. (Well maybe I already gave some but I didn't mean to, honest!!)

Anyway. Do read monsta's post. That whole thread from Fairnymph is pretty awesome. It's a little old so there may be new evidence, and quite a lot is based on anecdotal info, but it's by far the best resource of its type I've seen and I've been in awe of her ever since I read it. Bear in mind lack of info about harm does not mean there is no harm, don't take it as gospel as with anything on the internet, but it's definitely a really useful thread :)

This topic is relevant to my interests though and wanted to help so here's my added bits and bobs (bit geeky sorry, feel free to say if I am making no sense to you)

Re downers:
Mirtazepine has quite a complex action (to say the least). One of it's primary MOAs is as a sedating antihistamine, which is why it helps you sleep, and why it's not a good idea with downers. Whether it would actually potentiate respiratory depression or not (in the way that mixing alcohol, benzos and opioids can make you unexpectedly very dead, because they enhance the effects of one another) is kind of a moot point to me as sedation + downer can cause so many other dangerous problems - ranging from passing out in an awkward position and causing nerve damage (yes this is a thing) to choking on your vomit and dying a la Jimi and countless others. Proceed with extreme caution.

Re opioids specifically:
Mirtazepine may reduce the pleasurable effects from opioids due to a complicated and not fully understood (by me anyway :D) action on a specific serotonin receptor subtype. This is my personal speculation, but if it reduced pleasure from opioids without reducing respiratory depression (I don't know if this is the case or not but from what I have read it sounds like it) it could cause people to take dangerously high doses chasing the feeling, resulting in, well, death. Combined with the sedative properties, this worries me a lot. Again: please, proceed with extreme caution.

Re amphetamines and the like:
It seems that it can also reduce the high from dopaminergic drugs (stims, basically) via the same mechanism. There are studies I've read that to suggest it does reduce the pleasurable effects of amphetamine and methamphetamine, relating to this particular receptor action (inverse agonism of 5HT2c if anyone is interested ha) - will dig them out if you like (infact I'll try to do so anyway when I have time).

Re serotonergic drugs:
Mirtzepine does have serotonergic activity - it's not a reuptake inhibitor like SSRIs/SNRIs but it indirectly does act as a serotonin agonist as well as a noradrenaline agonist. It's quite selective and has a very complicated relationship with serotonin, so I am nervous about commenting here really.. It would seem logical that it would be okay in moderation, as it's the reuptake inhibitors such as SSRIs and tramadol, or excessive dosing of drugs that release serotonin such as MDMA and PMA, that worries me - but I really can't say about safety with MDMA, methylone etc. I'll try to do some more research if you like? You're right, it is less serotonergic than SSRIs, but that statement is somewhat simplified as there as loads of different receptor subtypes and complex interactions between neurotransmittors and nothing is ever simple when it comes to psychopharmacology, unfortunately.. In the spirit of HR I would have to say it would not be wise mixing mirtazepine with anything strongly serotonergic though, I'm sorry :\

Re hallucinogens:
I would be wary of taking hallucinogens with mirtazepine, as one of the main serotonin receptor subtypes it acts upon is also important in the action of a lot of hallucinogens - as Fairnymph's thread says, be careful, could be unpredictable/stronger than anticipated which with hallucinogens is not really what you are after. Could be very unpleasant.

In summary for tl;dr:
Downers in general - bad idea, could lead to death.
Opiates - very bad idea, reduce high, poss increasing risk of OD and therefore death.
Stims - could reduce effects. No idea about safety.
Serototonergics - very difficult to say, could be okay but wouldn't like to risk it myself. Mirtazepine is an indirect serotonin agonist and has a v complex action on serotonin receptors, and I've not seen any safety data or evidence so it's a gamble. HR says no.
Hallucinogens - could possibly cause strong/unpredictable trip so steer clear IMO.

I've not looked into the CYP-450 metabolic interactions because I don't know enough about all that really and it would take a lot of reading.. maybe sometime I will, when I have a lot of time on my hands :p

I could also go on for hours about why Drs prescribe SSRIs first line and why antideps often don't work on people, or work on one person but not another, but my fingers and head are tired :D Basically, there really haven't been any studies that manage prove that one antidepressant is superior to another. They are all broadly the same, with a few exceptions perhaps (although this is questionable). However, different people respond to different drugs; hence what works for your mate may not work for you, and vice versa. Also depends what you are looking for (added anxiolysis, added sedation, not to cause sexual dysfunction etc). As it takes 2-4 weeks to really see if an AD is going to work, then another 2-4 weeks on the next drug if the first one didn't help, all that trial and error can be horrid I know.. waiting and getting side effects and losing hope etc.. but it is worth it if you are clinically depressed and you find the drug that does work, as anyone who has been through this can testify, so if you and your doc think meds might help it is worth sticking it out if you can (IMO etc).

So, bearing all that in mind, essentially SSRIs are 1st line because a) they are as effective as other classes and work just as quickly according to current evidence; b) their side effect profile tends to be more tolerable/safer although obviously this is subjective and occasionally people find they react v badly, same as most drugs; c) they tend to be safe in overdose unlike the TCAs such as amitriptyline, which can cause fatal heart arrhythmia - clearly this is v important for suicidal peeps; d) there's a lot of research pushed by big pharma into SSRIs therefore a big evidence base (not necessarily accurately reflecting things but that is another rant); and e) they're generally fairly cheap. And f) most GPs can't get you access to speedy, good, free/cheap therapy. Which is a crying shame, but again, another rant.

(Couldn't help myself it turned out haha, now I really am tired! Doubting my decision to return to BL now :p)

Best of luck to you MDB - really hope the mirtazepine and counselling helps you, and any recreational activities (at all) that you participate in are helpful and not hindersome, and that you practice HR :) Oh, just read your last post - shit mate, please don't take random pharms from India - I know I said no lecturing, but chlorpromazine - whoa - people can have agonising/dangerous reactions to that (acute dystonia/torticollis, especially common in young people; it causes Parkinsonian symptoms; can cause horrible restlessness, shaking, shuffling, etc etc.. moreso than many other antipsychotics). It's bad bad bad and it's not generally prescribed here anymore for good reason. Be really careful with ordering meds, I definitely wouldn't recommend taking an antipsychotic for sleep - the risk:benefit is not in your favour by any stretch. Sedating antihistamines are a much more sensible idea, just be careful with the ol' delirium if you munch too many (hydroxyzine's a good 'un IMO, promethazine is the best I find).

Hope that helped and wasn't immensely boring or patronising or anything, and good luck with your recovery <3

(Disclaimer - I've not added sources or references as I haven't got time; always question everything, don't believe a random girl on the internet, for all you know I'm a 13 yr old with google open etc etc.. ;) and this is a very complicated area, I could have got things wrong for sure. I'll check my references though and hopefully then it will be a bit more trustworthy/accurate :)
 
thanks for the massive contribution effie, i cant read it all right now, but will do soon. Im sure there'll be some useful stuff you've shared with us in there.
 
You better fucking read it, that's proper fucking advice from a proper fucking moderator! ;)
 
V good effie! Also especially the sedating antihistamine thing, i used to take phenergan with meth to help me nod and i went over massively on a dose that shoulda/woulda been fine w/o them, ther fuckin dangerous especially if ya on a high dose of the sedating anti
 
Dont be worrying about any more rages, i think im in the all clear now, although i obviously still have to watch out very carefully for people trying to bait me and take time out to calm down if such a situation arises on here again. Its not me, i dont come here to fight, it makes the forum look terribble too. I hope no one gets another rage attack out of me no matter how much baiting. To be fair, apart from 2 snide comments today everyone has been supportive.

wow yes that really is a proper reply. Many thanks for all the time and effort that must have taken.

I liked that statement about looking at yourself from a different perspective and asking what is right for me ?

See thats where i get stuck right at the start. It would be easy to say, 'i want to be clear of all drugs'. A part of me does, i need my full clarity of mind back to get anywhere in this world. I am actually working very hard on fitness and cycling miles and miles. Its about the only thing i enjoy doing, as well as hiking which is also healthy. I want to get my muscles back to where they were as they have been whittled away from years of under use. Its amazing how quickly that can change if you put the work in though.

On the other hand i feel so discontented and bored when i dont take anything to lift my mood. Today its been mostly ethylphenidate and Bupe. I had totally forgotten about the dangers of combining opiates with Mirtazapine. Mirtazapine does not have any noticeable benefitial effect on my sleep, although i have noticed that i feel calmer during the day. So if it can sustain that action that will help a lot. Even if its not yet helping with sleep.

Im withdrawing from several thing atm, all of which are said to have horrific w/ds. I kind of extended my use of bupe which was initially only going to be for 3 weeks, and for the sole purpose of getting off AH7921. Then i noticed what a marvelous high the bupe gave me, but i thought that since the sertraline w/ds are probably going to make me feel awful (ive heard so many people say this) so Ill continue to take the bupe to smooth things out until the Mirtazapine starts kicking in. That was part of my thinking but i was also just abusing it for the high.

I dont think the Mirtazapine has kicked in properly, and that i probably need a higher dose, or maybe just wait a bit longer to give it more time. Its been about 2 weeks now. Sertraline will have fucked with my serotonin and its re-uptake so much that it may take my brain ages to realise that it needs to start performing certain functions for itself again. I believe this process can take 6 months or more. How Wonderful. :| (I wish i understood more about the neuro chemistry of the brain, its very complicated isnt it ? at least it is for me) But if the Mirtazapine does start really doing what its supposed to then somehow i wont be depressed even though sertraline has fucked up another part of my brain functioning or neural pathways. Im gonna try to get in touch with my dr as well but next time i collect my prescription im gonna take 2 tablets and see what effect that has. I have all the symptoms of depression, but dont want to list them on here, the lack of motivation is a bad one. Though i can easily do things i enjoy like cycling.

I had totally forgotten about Mirtazapine being potentially dangerous when mixed with downers and or opiates, so thanks for the reminder on that one. Having said that i have massively and very quickly reduced my benzo intake to 9mg without any problems atall (it wasnt helping me sleep whether i took 4 or 40 but i know you cant just stop taking benzos. There will soon come a point when i'll have to start slowing my taper down (Allein you might know ?) or it could be dangerous if i rush to get off them to quickly. I'll have a read of Heather Ashton's manual tomorrow as I think that point is fast approaching. I have no doubt my body will give me plenty of warning signals, but obviously better to be well informed, such as yourself.

Where have you learnt all this stuff Effie ? Do you work in the medical proffession ? If i was back at school now choosing my A levels I would definately be going for biology and chemistry for 2 of my A levels. I have so much more interest in the subject now. Now that it's directly affecting me.

I find if i have things to do during the day i can easily stay off drugs and feel OK and perfectly 'normal' out and about, but stuck at home alone, the stims often come out soon after breakfast. That means the day is gonna be a write off as i wont be able to eat so my brain wont be functioning properly. So Ill just be stuck at my pc desk all day. When i have plans i have no trouble sticking to them, so i need to do more plannning of non drug taking activities.

Its not right for me to be constantly fucked on drugs. Not that i am, but i just take far too many at any opportunity i get. It is a dilemma when you want something but also dont want it, as all smokers will know. I did a CBT class on short term vs long term thinking which brought home clearly that being a drugs bum really wasnt the right choice for me. So thank you Effie you have reminded me and clarified some very important things in my mind. I had lost sight of all these whilst spiralling downwards out of control, further and further from any ones reach, i didnt even want to talk to my counsellor last week which was a first for me, as I usually enjoy talking to her. I was very depressed last week. Im finding that the only way i can talk to people at the moment is with the aid of some mild stims. Im very open with her, i tell her practically everything, and will go to my next session slightly stimmed up. Stims and Mirtrazapine are actually a great combo, they seem made for each other. I know how unhealthy a long term stim habit can be. I can easily see myself getting back into stims again as i take further steps towards getting off the benzos and opiates. I'm gonna tell her all this. This is all really useful stuff you've got me thinking about Effie.

Your post has genuinely been a great help.

As was Moonstas link and Sam too. In fact most people that have contributed have been a great help.

Well i hope my reply made sense as your post obviously deserved a proper reply, but as ive barely eaten all day i think my post may have been a bit woolly headed, i was certainly thinking as i was going along. I had no idea what i was going to say before hand.

Right, time to try another Mirtazapine, not that they've been much help so far. I will give them 1 month on the low dose i was initially prescribed, and then ask the dr to double the dose if they still dont seem to be doing much. She said something about the tolerance profile of Mirtazapine but i was in too much of a daze to understand or even ask her to explain.

I suppose im asking a lot of Mirtazapine, as it has to help me come off Sertraline, Bupe next (i plan to be off in about 3-4 weeks), whilst all the time gradually reducing the benzos. That could take a few months. There is no literature on coming off Etizolam so we have to use the info we have for its closest relative - diazepam, and follow the steps outlined in the Ashton manual.
 
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Hi MDB, please don't think I'm having a go at you here, just felt I needed to add a couple of points.

First of all, congrats on knocking the phenazepam on the head - it wasn't doing you any good at all, that much was obvious. Your posts have got much more coherent and reader-friendly over the past few weeks which is good to see. I have first hand knowledge of how much that stuff can fuck you over in a very short space of time, so well done!

Now I don't know your history, or current level of drug use and/or abuse, but there are still some glaring inconsistencies in your posts. Your last one stated that 'you don't want to be a druggy' and you're trying to come off various substances (benzos & AH7921 I believe?), yet in your previous post you admitted to ordering a shit load of powerful pharms, which are NOT going to mix well with the drugs you are already on.

Do I understand that you have been prescribed mirtazepine? Effie is spot on with saying that mirtazepine doesn't mix well with opiates. Then you're considering adding yet another sedating antihistamine into the mix (hydroxyzine). IMO, hydroxyzine is a decent potentiator for opiates, mirtazepine is NOT. But I dread to think what the consequences of taking both together with AH-7921 would be. Then there's chlorpromazine (largactil). FFS, what do you want to be messing with that stuff for? Do you want to be a zombie or something? Anti-psychotics are far from recreational and are not the sort of things to use if not prescribed. Do you consider yourself to be psychotic?

As for Atamoxetine Hydrochloride, I haven't got a clue what that is so I won't comment, but Dimenhydrinate? Yet another sedating anti-histamine (diphenhydramine mixed with theophylline to counter the sedation) to go with all the others.

It sounds like the only way you can contemplate coming off some drugs is to substitute with others. I've done it and I'm sure many others have as well - but not to this extent surely? Your bathroom/bedroom whatever must look like a bloody pharmacists!

I really don't think you need to be mixing all of these pharmaceuticals, but if you're anything like me (and I think you are) then you WILL.

I'm just concerned that one day you will just stop posting and we are all forced to think the unthinkable.

Take care Buddy!

(BTW, I'm 48 so I have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about)
 
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i dont take everytning all at once lol. I have so many different type of sleeping aids so that i can rotate them and prevent tolerance build up.

Got a solid 12 hours last night : 1 mirtazapine, 2 phenergan (ran out now, bastard), 2 hydroxyzine.

At lat ive dound out what works though. it would seem i only need 1 phenergan and 1 hydroxyzine. I planned to get up at 11 today, yet here i am just woke up at 5pm lol ffs.
 
Its so good to have has unbroken sleep for the first time in about 3 months, now i just need to adjust the timing of my sleep cycle a little. What a bastard that i only had 2 phenergan. I might jusat trt the 2 hyroxys arounf midnight tonight and see what they do. Hopefully they will knwock me out pretty quick so i can get back into a normal routine.

Mo srtims today for sure. Its gonna be a short day, up at 5 pm, try and knock myself out around 12 pm or 1 am. With slightly less meds. I suspect i might not have neeeded all that many lol.
 
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