Acid

[Ismene2]

You are confusing chemical impurities with cuts. They're not the same thing.

No I'm not, it's more subtle than that. What "impurity" is active at the same dose as LSD? It's either LSD or it's inactive.

 

[Wilson Wilson]

No I'm not, it's more subtle than that. What "impurity" is active at the same dose as LSD? It's either LSD or it's inactive.

But it doesn't need to be active to be a chemical impurity. As @GearoftheYear pointed out, as far as anyone knows ISO-LSD is inactive, yet it is widely reported to affect the subjective effects of the end product.

If you lay a blotter with LSD, but it's that hypothetical batch where only 90% is LSD and 10% is random chemical impurities, you will notice some type of difference even if only because you're getting 10% less acid than you should.

But yeah today's acid is very high quality anyway so this is speculative discussion. The worst acid we've mentioned here is GG being "only" 98% lol. Acid is made by a small group of dedicated crews who put work into what they do.

 

[Ismene2]

Different synth routes give a slightly different end result in LSD.

It can't be slightly different - LSD is an arrangement of molecules in a lattice. Cut and dried - anything other than that specific arrangement isn't LSD.

ISO-LSD is said to be inactive, but I've found batches that are said to be refined with extra steps in the synth to remove it to be much cleaner.

Do you think you can pick up on such tiny inactive molecules like "iso-lsd" alongside such an explosively powerful molecule as LSD? It's pretty doubtful your brain is so sensitive as to pick up on 2 or 3 mics of iso-lsd alongside 250 mics of LSD.

My best guess is that all the talk of "clean" and "dirty" is simply how the user is feeling that day. Take acid by a clear stream in a meadow and it will be clean, take the same acid in a room with a pair of shitten underpants on the floor and it will be "dirty".

In a lot of instances I've seen someone freak out and get naked, running off down the street

I'm usually naked save for one sock when I do this.

 

[Ismene2]

But it doesn't need to be active to be a chemical impurity.

If it's not active then what difference can it make?

Sure - there might be less acid on the blotter but you just take more. Even it's only "50% pure" (whatever that means) it wouldn't make any difference because there's only the LSD that's active - it's like taking a piss in niagra falls and someone at the bottom "i could taste asparagus in the piss". It's completely impossible other than as placebo.

 

[gannetsarewe]

A lot of talk here about US v Euro acid, my 2D and it is a back in the day 2D is that a very good friend used to sell allot of paper in the North Bronx and Yonkers sections. The acid was on unperforated and unmarked card, allegedly make by the Rainbow People in Ca or some such and in came via an old school guy in the Village.

A lot of this acid circulated over here at the same time due to it's easy transportability. The only difference I ever heard remarked on what that the US stuff was lower dosed.

 

[G_Chem]

If it's not active then what difference can it make?

Sure - there might be less acid on the blotter but you just take more. Even it's only "50% pure" (whatever that means) it wouldn't make any difference because there's only the LSD that's active - it's like taking a piss in niagra falls and someone at the bottom "i could taste asparagus in the piss". It's completely impossible other than as placebo.

A substance doesn’t need to be active by itself to cause problems when mixed with other substances of similar molecular structure. A substance by itself could exhibit no psychoactive attributes but in combination with another psychoactive compound may compete for enzymes, compete for receptor sites or any other number of possible interactions.

I am someone who believes after decades of use that LSD varies based on purity.

LSD is LSD yes. But again illicit synthesis is far from perfect and some batches will likely have impurities with a similar structure (like ISO-LSD which is said to block the effects or alter them of true LSD).

Just like with MDMA where we’re finding residual MD-P2P has a detrimental effect on the positive effects. MDMA is MDMA, but this ain’t some pharmaceutical lab it’s a few dudes in an apartment somewhere.

Thankfully these days LSD is pretty damn pure and easy to find but it wasn’t always that way. To this day I know guys that get ahold of cheap impure LSDcrystal and it DOES feel different from my high quality paper.

Of course with any psychedelic set, setting and expectations play a role to some extent. But certain attributes that seem to stick around trip after trip with a particular batch are hard to write off as such. Things like differing duration, rough come up, lingering after effects, etc which seem to hold true from experience to experience.

But this is one of those topics people get pretty entrenched in their beliefs on... You gotta experience it to believe it, and some folks just don’t have the ability to discern nuances like that.

I’m learning some folks just eat drugs and look for a very general reaction. This is how piperazines got sold as MDMA for years, or now fentanyl as heroin. So long as it feels kinda like the drug in question people don’t ask anymore questions..

-GC

 

[GearoftheYear]

It can't be slightly different - LSD is an arrangement of molecules in a lattice. Cut and dried - anything other than that specific arrangement isn't LSD.



Do you think you can pick up on such tiny inactive molecules like "iso-lsd" alongside such an explosively powerful molecule as LSD? It's pretty doubtful your brain is so sensitive as to pick up on 2 or 3 mics of iso-lsd alongside 250 mics of LSD.

My best guess is that all the talk of "clean" and "dirty" is simply how the user is feeling that day. Take acid by a clear stream in a meadow and it will be clean, take the same acid in a room with a pair of shitten underpants on the floor and it will be "dirty".



I'm usually naked save for one sock when I do this.

There's only so far the science goes in this given we blocked all research for what 50-60 years? We are now only currently at the stages of research that we were at in the 1950s or around the time of LSD being banned. Regardless of my opinion there are no facts to back it up, this is were science and experience clash for me. I imagine in about 10 years time though there will be good scientific evidence to handle these questions. At the same time there is no scientific research specific to LSD to say it's incorrect either and I just wouldn't be convinced by any scientific information related to this unless it was specific to the psychedelic being discussed.

If you want my personal opinion, while LSD is a specific arrangement of molecules, the actual trip itself is influenced by different synth methods and different byproducts which alter the experience. Again as mentioned set and setting come in to play, also method of ingestion and the frequency your consuming the acid does too, so you can't put a clean or dirty experience down to a single variable such as mood or synth method. It's the combination of these variables which some how condenses into a singular variable in influencing the trip.

Again I have no evidence to back any of this up other than experience with lots of LSD both from the same/different blotter, location and source. I'm also not involved with LSD supply so really couldn't care less for marketing tricks that I spot.

It's the same with ISO-LSD. We know ISO-LSD is not active on it's own, it's been well documented. But what hasn't been 'scientifically' researched is whether ISO-LSD when combined with LSD influences the effects of the LSD itself and given how basic some of the LSD studies actually are I don't see that happening any time soon in science. If you have been taking psychedelics for years all the current studies do is confirm your opinion, nothing is ground breaking.

Another angle is if it didn't matter then why do chemists nowadays bother to refine it? Even the highest most purist batches of LSD have different effects slightly from batch to batch, part of it is definitely marketing but there certainly has to be something to it. There are far too many skeptical people in the psychedelic community for this to not have some importance otherwise we would have ditched the discussion long ago. In the 70s it was different brand names, now we have moved beyond that and are getting closer to the really working out what's going on. I think that's also another reason why chemists today do the refining of ISO-LSD as it's stirring the pot and creating the discussion which is eventually going to influence some academic enough (along with their own experiences) to actually create and complete a study. Although it should be noted that ISO-LSD can also be converted to LSD and that could be the reason.

Another one, 1p-LSD. A pro drug for LSD, so it should have the same effects as LSD? To me it doesn't, it was less stimulating to me personally and I found it slightly lack luster by comparison in the exact same setting (date being one of the only real shifting variables). But that doesn't mean I think LSD is superior or that 1p-LSD can't produce as enlightening or cathartic experiences. It was also so subtle in difference that if you gave me it after a 6 month break from psychedelics I'd probably not notice a difference. But if you're eating acid every 2 weeks for a substantial period then switch to using 1p-LSD in the same way I'd say you'd notice the real small differences. Same with 4-ACO-DMT vs Psilocybin vs 4-HO-DMT. All slightly different in effects to me personally, but each can produce the same healing experience as the others.

I've discussed this with others at length in PD to the point I have no real motiviation to even get to in depth beyond this post with it anymore. Reality is subjective anyway. It's a futile discussion as there isn't the evidence or studies going on to back up anyone's opinion.

(Nudge to any academics in the relevant fields...conducting and discussing this study would pack any large lecture hall at any psychedelic conference, what a great way to get a free ticket in and to make everyone's lives easier).

 

[Wilson Wilson]

A substance doesn’t need to be active by itself to cause problems when mixed with other substances of similar molecular structure. A substance by itself could exhibit no psychoactive attributes but in combination with another psychoactive compound may compete for enzymes, compete for receptor sites or any other number of possible interactions.

Exactly right.

Grapefruits are not psychoactive. But as they inhibit CYP3A4 (plus CYP2D6 and a couple others) they have the ability to interact with roughly half of all psychoactive substances known to man.

Depending on which drug it is, that interaction can either potentiate the effects or stop the drug working altogether. Mostly you get potentiation unless it's a prodrug.

The range of drugs affected by this is so broad that even for researched and licensed pharmas we don't actually know every single one that is susceptible.

And that's an interaction between literally a grapefruit and roughly 50% of all drugs.

Considering the nature of black market drug synthesis and the lack of research done on these byproducts (and indeed often the drugs themselves) it seems crazy to me to just say a non-psychoactive impurity cannot possibly have an effect on a drug.

 

[Ismene2]

It just sounds awfully like bro-science to me. The difference in all LSD trips can be explained perfectly by set and setting.

I think a lot of people get confused thinking "well, if you buy a powder that can have different "purity" so the same must apply to LSD on a blotter".

 

[Flower Fairy]

It just sounds awfully like bro-science to me. The difference in all LSD trips can be explained perfectly by set and setting.

Yep, and it also must be people's brain chemistry, me and my best mate can take the same amount of ketamine he blows off into space the lucky git, goes to Mars and stuff but I don't, I K hole and its fun and trippy but it's like another similar room, so say we're in his living room it's a weird trippy version, or I go other places but I don't leave earth, I'd love to though but I just don't, which stems from one of my first K holes where I was in a secret room in club I used to go too, that felt like a parallel universe, maybe I go enter my body in another realm I don't know, everyone knows K is unexplainable

So why do some people meet alians on K and LSD etc, and some don't, brain chemistry maybe, so it could explain why the testing on the LSD come back as pure but effect people differently

People experience drugs differently, and not only that, a drug that you take one month might effect you differently the next because of how you're feeling at the time etc

 

[sekio]

Considering the nature of black market drug synthesis and the lack of research done on these byproducts (and indeed often the drugs themselves) it seems crazy to me to just say a non-psychoactive impurity cannot possibly have an effect on a drug.

Grapefruit flavonoids that alter liver metabolism are arguably not "inert"; sure they are not psychoactive, but they do interact with a major metabolic pathway that is common to many other drugs. In fact they will produce effects on the enzyme system regardless of any other drugs being present or not. Iso-LSD doesn't seem to have much of an effect at "LSD impurity" dose levels and has affinity 30x less than LSD at 5Ht2a (i.e. not active). So it's logical to assume that it doesn't have much of an effect on LSD itself.

 

[G_Chem]

Grapefruit flavonoids that alter liver metabolism are arguably not "inert"; sure they are not psychoactive, but they do interact with a major metabolic pathway that is common to many other drugs. In fact they will produce effects on the enzyme system regardless of any other drugs being present or not. Iso-LSD doesn't seem to have much of an effect at "LSD impurity" dose levels and has affinity 30x less than LSD at 5Ht2a (i.e. not active). So it's logical to assume that it doesn't have much of an effect on LSD itself.

Again though, that’s the point, these things aren’t psychoactive or noticeable at the dosages used alone but in combination with known psychoactive substances give an altered effect.

ISO-LSD doesn’t have a high affinity at 5ht2a but there’s plenty other receptors LSD plays on, even then who’s to say it doesn’t still compete for 2a or any number of other receptor sites.

There’s a reason good LSD chemists go through the trouble of separating the ISO.

-GC

 

[Ismene2]

Is there any evidence that inactive molecules in the micro gram dose range affect an lsd trip?

As to whether a glass of grapefruit juice affects I've never tried it but presumably a blotter soaked in grapefruit juice has zero effect on anything

 

[Acid4Blood]

G_Chem, Wilson Wilson, GearoftheYear - Great to see a wealth of knowledge keeping this place in shape. Keep up the good work my men.

Ismene - Some things never fucking change!