Bupe I'm terrified of taking Subox for maintenance. Please tell me what it's really like.

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

Sorry, I'm prescribed Xanax but never been on bupe. Cannot advise you correctly about their possible interactions.

I am also prescribed it but yeah I've heard that they are interactions so that's why I was curious.

Thank you for your time and your info today. I really appreciate it

 

[Juicewrldfan]

I am also prescribed it but yeah I've heard that they are interactions so that's why I was curious.

Thank you for your time and your info today. I really appreciate it

So as far as the Xanax goes some addiction doctors will even prescribe low dose together but take that with a grain of salt.

And as far as what you were saying earlier about why you want to do shots to prevent the choice to relapse: that’s understandable and one of the benefits of shots. It is easier to relapse with sublingual administration. My only concern is them you are at your doctors mercy dosage-wise and I feel like they over prescribe but then maybe that’s what you want so that opioids will be blocked almost completely and very likely. It’s hard to break thru Suboxone and very hard to do it safely. I have tried and succeeded but it was very dangerous.

Thing is some ppl realize they can’t get high o opiates anymore because the suboxone and then they seek alternative substances. For me it was stimulants. I mean I was clean in the end but during that five years I did start liking stimulants alot.

Going back to the Xanax, I’d do more research because I think the doctors that prescribe them together are doing it in ppl that are maintaining on suboxone. Someone new to suboxone will likely get high the first few days from suboxone but that stops quickly. I was using iv heroin and switched to suboxone maintenance and I got high the first few days, nods and all. So I guess what I’m saying is it’s not completely safe. Can you discuss it with your doctor? They would know more and I would hate to hear something bad happened to ya…again it likely won’t but I don’t know enough. I have been on anxiety meds while on suboxone but it was Ativan which is a lot weaker ime than Xanax and yes I was prescribed it.

Methadone and Xanax though is a different story.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

So as far as the Xanax goes some addiction doctors will even prescribe low dose together but take that with a grain of salt.

And as far as what you were saying earlier about why you want to do shots to prevent the choice to relapse: that’s understandable and one of the benefits of shots. It is easier to relapse with sublingual administration. My only concern is them you are at your doctors mercy dosage-wise and I feel like they over prescribe but then maybe that’s what you want so that opioids will be blocked almost completely and very likely. It’s hard to break thru Suboxone and very hard to do it safely. I have tried and succeeded but it was very dangerous.

Thing is some ppl realize they can’t get high o opiates anymore because the suboxone and then they seek alternative substances. For me it was stimulants. I mean I was clean in the end but during that five years I did start liking stimulants alot.

Going back to the Xanax, I’d do more research because I think the doctors that prescribe them together are doing it in ppl that are maintaining on suboxone. Someone new to suboxone will likely get high the first few days from suboxone but that stops quickly. I was using iv heroin and switched to suboxone maintenance and I got high the first few days, nods and all. So I guess what I’m saying is it’s not completely safe. Can you discuss it with your doctor? They would know more and I would hate to hear something bad happened to ya…again it likely won’t but I don’t know enough. I have been on anxiety meds while on suboxone but it was Ativan which is a lot weaker ime than Xanax and yes I was prescribed it.

Methadone and Xanax though is a different story.

Yeah that's why I'm sort of flip-flopping between the 2 options. The shot route is 3 injections over a 3 month period, 300mg first injection, then two 100mg injections for the next 2 months and then you're supposed to be totally done after that.

I'm assuming I would still have withdrawals after the 3 month treatment but maybe not as bad?

I'm also prescribed Xanax for a panic condition, so I only use it rarely and as needed, maybe twice a month and less than 1mg each time. I know that stuff is a huge issue to kick and I'm already having a terrible time with Oxy.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Yeah that's why I'm sort of flip-flopping between the 2 options. The shot route is 3 injections over a 3 month period, 300mg first injection, then two 100mg injections for the next 2 months and then you're supposed to be totally done after that.

I'm assuming I would still have withdrawals after the 3 month treatment but maybe not as bad?

I'm also prescribed Xanax for a panic condition, so I only use it rarely and as needed, maybe twice a month and less than 1mg each time. I know that stuff is a huge issue to kick and I'm already having a terrible time with Oxy.

Yeah I mean if you are using it in less than 1mg each time and sparingly, I would say it’s very likely safe.

Not really sure why you can’t ask your suboxone doctor to make sure though. I’m about 99 percent sure it’s safe at that dosage and frequency but I still think you should discuss with the suboxone doctor. They are going to find out anyway well if your state is like my state Xanax comes up on the controlled substances report they pull before prescribing and also might show up in a urinalysis. Just best to be sure. Like I said I’m 99 percent sure at that dose and frequency you’ll be fine and I’d take it myself BUT it’s always possible that I’m wrong. Again, I’d take it if it were me but I don’t want to give potentially harmful advice.

So, I never did the injections but it seems like they have structured it to stabilize and them slowly taper you off. It would be likely that with the injections that withdrawal is even easier because the taper would seem more gradual but idk…

What I do know is a good chunk of withdrawal is mind over matter ime and psychosomatic. Like I said I jumped off at 4 mg and I wasn’t using anything at the time and didn’t start abusing substances for about 9 months even after I got off. I had no withdrawals but that’s not the case with most ppl.

Suboxone is long lasting as you know and has a long half life. So the withdrawal lasts longer but I really think that it’s way easier than heroin in my experience which is fast acting short half life compared to subs.

Ultimately as long as you gradually come off you will be very much fine. I guarantee it. Just make sure you follow a taper and it looks like that’s part of the plan so I really think you will be A ok. Don’t overthink it. That’s how you get into trouble. Overthinking it. Dwelling on it.

Nothing wrong with being prepared at all, and asking questions but don’t overthink it. Psychosomatic effects are very very real.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

Yeah I mean if you are using it in less than 1mg each time and sparingly, I would say it’s very likely safe.

Not really sure why you can’t ask your suboxone doctor to make sure though. I’m about 99 percent sure it’s safe at that dosage and frequency but I still think you should discuss with the suboxone doctor. They are going to find out anyway well if your state is like my state Xanax comes up on the controlled substances report they pull before prescribing and also might show up in a urinalysis. Just best to be sure. Like I said I’m 99 percent sure at that dose and frequency you’ll be fine and I’d take it myself BUT it’s always possible that I’m wrong. Again, I’d take it if it were me but I don’t want to give potentially harmful advice.

So, I never did the injections but it seems like they have structured it to stabilize and them slowly taper you off. It would be likely that with the injections that withdrawal is even easier because the taper would seem more gradual but idk…

What I do know is a good chunk of withdrawal is mind over matter ime and psychosomatic. Like I said I jumped off at 4 mg and I wasn’t using anything at the time and didn’t start abusing substances for about 9 months even after I got off. I had no withdrawals but that’s not the case with most ppl.

Suboxone is long lasting as you know and has a long half life. So the withdrawal lasts longer but I really think that it’s way easier than heroin in my experience which is fast acting short half life compared to subs.

Ultimately as long as you gradually come off you will be very much fine. I guarantee it. Just make sure you follow a taper and it looks like that’s part of the plan so I really think you will be A ok. Don’t overthink it. That’s how you get into trouble. Overthinking it. Dwelling on it.

Nothing wrong with being prepared at all, and asking questions but don’t overthink it. Psychosomatic effects are very very real.

In California they don't test, we can even get Suboxone via online telemedicine providers with a 10 minute phone call. It's a total joke. I wasn't exaggerating when I said everyone hands it out like candy out here.

I did talk to my doctor and psychiatrist about Xanax and they both gave me the standard "opiates and benzos, respiratory depression" answer, yet I know I can safely take 30mg of Hydrocodone and .5mg of Xanax and the same time without an issue, but I'm very opiate tolerant these days and obviously I wouldn't suggest people do that unless they know what they're doing.

As for the psychosomatic thing, I am VERY nervous and "in my own head" about this whole thing. It's rough.

 

[Xorkoth]

My mother takes the strips and her dental health has been degrading rather quickly to the point where she believes she may need dentures.

Yeah this is very true. I am prescribed the pills, specifically because I snort them, to avoid tooth decay. While I was taking it subligually, regaredless of how much I did absolutely everything to maintain my dental health, I started needing fillings and stuff. Can't be good for the nose, either, but fuck tooth decay.

Of course I don't tell my doctor I am snorting them... I just say I don't like the strips and find they don't work that well for me.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

Yeah this is very true. I am prescribed the pills, specifically because I snort them, to avoid tooth decay. While I was taking it subligually, regaredless of how much I did absolutely everything to maintain my dental health, I started needing fillings and stuff. Can't be good for the nose, either, but fuck tooth decay.

Of course I don't tell my doctor I am snorting them... I just say I don't like the strips and find they don't work that well for me.

Doesn't the naloxone mess with being able to snort them?

I can't snort stuff, weirds me out. But I'm curious because I thought that was the whole point of why they put it in there?

 

[Juicewrldfan]

In California they don't test, we can even get Suboxone via online telemedicine providers with a 10 minute phone call. It's a total joke. I wasn't exaggerating when I said everyone hands it out like candy out here.

I did talk to my doctor and psychiatrist about Xanax and they both gave me the standard "opiates and benzos, respiratory depression" answer, yet I know I can safely take 30mg of Hydrocodone and .5mg of Xanax and the same time without an issue, but I'm very opiate tolerant these days and obviously I wouldn't suggest people do that unless they know what they're doing.

As for the psychosomatic thing, I am VERY nervous and "in my own head" about this whole thing. It's rough.

It’s likely fine and I am pretty sure there are some of us on here that have mixed subs and Xanax before. Maybe they will post their experience.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

It’s likely fine and I am pretty sure there are some of us on here that have mixed subs and Xanax before. Maybe they will post their experience.

Thanks again Juice, you've been a big help and a resource.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Hey @AddictedAndHatingIt

I'm glad you've gotten some good answers. Situations like this are a lot more scary when you don't have the knowledge. The dosages you're describing regarding your Opioid use are not extreme. There is a spectrum these days. The folks out there doing Fentanyl are growing tolerances that would previously have been rare. The system has yet to adjust effectively to counter the change in potency.

One interesting side-effect of this is that I see more and more people who just decide to stop going to the Methadone Clinic. They start using Fentanyl a little bit here and there. By the time they're doing a couple of bundles of dope a day, the Methadone is not even in the same league as the tolerance they're dealing with. That's a tangent, but kind of intetesting.

If I were you, I would take Buprenorphine 2mg once a day. If you find that it's not high enough, you can adjust. I feel this dose is perfect considering your circumstances and history. Anything higher runs the risk of actually increasing your tolerance and would likely not give much further benefit.

You mentioned taking Alprazolan (Xanax) also. Yes, Benzodiazepines and Opioids in tandem produce a synergistic effect, which often leads to problems like respiratory depression. But, this isn't going to be a foreign feeling for you, as you're already taking Opioids and Benzodiazepines. There's nothing specific about either Methadone or Buprenorphine that would make them any more dangerous than say, Hydrocodone (Vicodin).

As I always like to say, medications like these are not a cure. Your medication needs to be just one of many tools in your belt. The more tools, the higher the likelihood of success in your goals.

I highly advise joining a group with fellow addicts. 12-step meetings are great if not simply because they are everywhere at all different times, making it easy for a person to get started. I owe much of my life to the people I met in AA who were willing to help me.

I go to meetings, I try to be honest in everything I do, try to treat people as I would want to be treated and to always remember what I have to be grateful for. Here you have a place to start. A lot of people talk shit about AA and they're entitled to their opinions, but there is no other system in the world that comes close to their levels of success. You can spend $45,000/moth to go to a rehab in Malibu run by people motivated by profit, or you can go to the free meeting in which every person there is there for each other. One drug addict helping another drug addict for free is more effective than any amount of dollars.

Jus make sure you have a comprehensive plan. The only way I got better was by giving it everything I had.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

Hey @AddictedAndHatingIt

I'm glad you've gotten some good answers. Situations like this are a lot more scary when you don't have the knowledge. The dosages you're describing regarding your Opioid use are not extreme. There is a spectrum these days. The folks out there doing Fentanyl are growing tolerances that would previously have been rare. The system has yet to adjust effectively to counter the change in potency.

One interesting side-effect of this is that I see more and more people who just decide to stop going to the Methadone Clinic. They start using Fentanyl a little bit here and there. By the time they're doing a couple of bundles of dope a day, the Methadone is not even in the same league as the tolerance they're dealing with. That's a tangent, but kind of intetesting.

If I were you, I would take Buprenorphine 2mg once a day. If you find that it's not high enough, you can adjust. I feel this dose is perfect considering your circumstances and history. Anything higher runs the risk of actually increasing your tolerance and would likely not give much further benefit.

You mentioned taking Alprazolan (Xanax) also. Yes, Benzodiazepines and Opioids in tandem produce a synergistic effect, which often leads to problems like respiratory depression. But, this isn't going to be a foreign feeling for you, as you're already taking Opioids and Benzodiazepines. There's nothing specific about either Methadone or Buprenorphine that would make them any more dangerous than say, Hydrocodone (Vicodin).

As I always like to say, medications like these are not a cure. Your medication needs to be just one of many tools in your belt. The more tools, the higher the likelihood of success in your goals.

I highly advise joining a group with fellow addicts. 12-step meetings are great if not simply because they are everywhere at all different times, making it easy for a person to get started. I owe much of my life to the people I met in AA who were willing to help me.

I go to meetings, I try to be honest in everything I do, try to treat people as I would want to be treated and to always remember what I have to be grateful for. Here you have a place to start. A lot of people talk shit about AA and they're entitled to their opinions, but there is no other system in the world that comes close to their levels of success. You can spend $45,000/moth to go to a rehab in Malibu run by people motivated by profit, or you can go to the free meeting in which every person there is there for each other. One drug addict helping another drug addict for free is more effective than any amount of dollars.

Jus make sure you have a comprehensive plan. The only way I got better was by giving it everything I had.

Now this is the kind of answer I've been needing. I really appreciate it.

The info on dosage is very helpful, as well as interactions, and the support options. Thank you.

I am actually going to my first NA meeting tonight. No idea what to expect. But I am showing up and seeing what happens.

It may sound weird but Bluelight has been a huge resource for me. Almost therapeutic. The knowledge and first hand experiences that are shared on this site can be extremely useful. It's also great to hear from other people who have been in my shoes, or in worse places, and have still found success and a level of sobriety that can sometimes seem impossible.

I will report back on my adventure with all of this with the hope that it can help someone else down the line.

If anyone else has any useful experience that they would like to share, I would be happy to absorb it. If there is a good place for me to share my journey that isn't this thread, please point me in the right direction and I will start a post there. If it's good to maintain this post and keep it running, I can do that too.

Thank you to all of you guys. You probably have no idea how much it actually means, but truly, thank you!

 

[Xorkoth]

Doesn't the naloxone mess with being able to snort them?

I can't snort stuff, weirds me out. But I'm curious because I thought that was the whole point of why they put it in there?

No, naloxone's affinity is lower than that of bupe, so the bupe displaces it (in other words, naloxone doesn't stand a chance of attaching to your receptors when bupe is around). Its a total myth that naloxone is put in there to discourage abuse. It's either (a) so doctors can say that's what it's for and scare people away from trying to "abuse" it, or (b) for patent purposes.

 

[AddictedAndHatingIt]

No, naloxone's affinity is lower than that of bupe, so the bupe displaces it (in other words, naloxone doesn't stand a chance of attaching to your receptors when bupe is around). Its a total myth that naloxone is put in there to discourage abuse. It's either (a) so doctors can say that's what it's for and scare people away from trying to "abuse" it, or (b) for patent purposes.

Very interesting. Got to love those patents. Thanks for the info!

 

[DrDarkside]

I think Buprenorphine can be a helpful tool for stabilisation especially if you intend to use it as advised and slowly taper down when you feel ready.

Unfortunately for me I have never had much of a good time with it but its mainly been because my addictive nature always got in the way. I would take Subutex from the pharmacy and sneak some out with my hand or spit it out to go home and snort it.

I recently came off 8mg Subutex daily and didnt listen to the advice of my drug workers. One day I just had enough and did a stupidly quick taper and jumped of completley at about 2 or 4mg. 2 days later I didnt feel any withdrawal and thought I was in the clear. How wrong I was, day 3 the withdrawals came and I ended up in a hellish rattle for just over a month.

Iv done this almost everytime I came off Subutex which is why my experience with it has been bad. My experience with it in rehab was not much better, I lied about how much I was using so that they would give me a higher dose of Subutex, I beleive it was 16mg initially and they tapered me off over 14days, I ended up in a horrible withdrawal again. But I was clean for 8 years after that. Unfortunately I recently relapsed again (since the 8mg rapid taper I mentioned above) and am struggling with a mild withdrawal from a one week heroin binge.

You sound like you have a strong intention to stop, not abuse the pills and taper down as advised, so I think it could work well for you, I just thought I would share my story with it. The fact that it stays on the receptors for so long is something to take into consideration.

 

[Dreamflyer]

(I just wrote this to somebody in another forum, so I'll copy it and paste it.)

I only have a little bit of experience with Suboxone, but I'll be happy to share...

1) I think it's definitely better than shooting heroin or spending hundreds/thousands of dollars on Oxy, etc.

2) Just try not to get hooked on it and substitute one addiction for another.

3) It's not for everyone. My friend went on it and it saved her life, allowing her to function and feel normal. I tried it twice and reacted horribly to it. Not an allergic reaction, but more like the worst hangover of my life.

Stay safe, my friend!

 

[DeathIndustrial88]

It starts off great.
At first I thought I found the answer. To be able to take an opioid legally, get the antidepressant & motivational benefits from it & not have to deal with withdrawal. I could finally move on with my life. And I did for about the first year.

Flash forward 5 more years & I'm still on it. Now I'm perpetually tired & lethargic. I still crave opioids & heroin daily. I get none of the stimulation, contentedness or anything else from it that I use to associate with opioids. But I'm also afraid to come off of it cause the withdrawals are hell & I would probably be right back in the throes of desperation if I had no opioids at all.

Do you want off opioids or just to be able to maintain?
Cause there's a misconception about maintenance that it's meant for "getting off opioids".
Which isn't true at all. It's meant to give you a legal opioid to maintain on, while you work on yourself. Some people stay on maintenance their whole lives.
Hence why it's called "maintenance" and not "rehab".

The maintenance opioids are also just as bad if not worse to have to withdrawal from.
I feel trapped now because I don't hate opioids nor do I want to quit them. They help me function so much better. But suboxone is incredibly subpar, yet strong as fuck at the same time. So basically society & the government are okay with me taking opioids, as long as it's their preferred opioid, one that's strong as all hell but offers none of the great benefits that I enjoyed in opioids in the first place. Bupe bores me to tears.

It's also caused me some stomach issues. The constipation from bupe is "Less severe" than full agonists, but at least with full agonists, they wear off. With bupe, it never wears off, so your intestines are constantly being slowed down. I hate it.

If you want away from opioids altogether, I recommend just trying to taper using whatever opioid you nornally use. Maybe thrown in some loperamide, kratom, DXM, etc.. Because these maintenance opioids are really reserved for people who cannot quit or don't want to quit & they can actually make your opioid dependence worse since they're so potent. If you don't think you can live without opioids, then I'd consider maintenance.

I'd rank the effects of buprenorphine below tramadol & hydrocodone. Probably right above codeine & codeine sucks for me. Even though bupe is like 50x more potent than the two aforementioned opioids, it's partial agonism still causes it to really be lacking in a lot of effects.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

I feel like every person that paints suboxone as a miracle drug should be asked "have you been on it for 6 months or less". Like others said it turns on you after a period of time. Tired all the time, no happiness just feeling "off" and anxious and depressed, zaps motivation. Bupe is nothing but all the side effects good opiates have with none of the euphoria or pain relief, it actually increases my pain and makes me feel like a creaky old man with popping joints every time I move around. I will be cold turkeying my subutex this month once I get up the courage, I would rather live life with the chance I might relapse vs being on bupe and feeling like shit constantly without the chance of relapse. Even with no tolerance I don't get a good feeling from it, just wired and gross not high. I saw an intervention episode where they were shooting it and getting high on an indian reservation and I just don't understand what these people get out of it. Weed helps a little to boost the glow but its still not great.

Yeah. I mean it does have its place in medicine but it’s not a silver bullet. I’m not an advocate for high doses or long term maintenance but short term can help people stabilize. I even think 6 months is too long. I think three months max but really think one month should be plenty of time to stabilize them taper off imo.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

I agree with you for short term for sure, also for instances like if a person is incarcerated/committed while addicted bupe should definitely be provided. Im shitting on it now but I was very relieved when they gave it to me when I got committed, withdrawaling while you are locked away is inhumane. 1-3 months I think is a good time frame, drs are just to greedy. Imagine having 300 patients you can charge every month and you don't even have to look up from your desk, that shit corrupts these drs and they just see dollar signs. Just like how every police officer is forced to be tazed as part of their training every dr should be forced to take 8mgs twice a day and then go through the withdrawal in order to prescribe, bet that would have a whole different attitude.

Agreed. That and the insane amount of drug testing. No need to drug test every week once you have had clean tests for a period of time. My insurance wouldn’t cover the tests eventually because they said it was excessive and had to pay out of pocket

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Thankfully my dr only drug tested the first time and Ive seen him for 6 months but I have to do bullshit IOP which could drug test at any time but its "virtual IOP" through the phone and its a joke and since Im not court ordered and go by my own volition the IOP hasnt fucked with me yet and called for me to come in for a test.

Yeah it’s just a money grab. IOP isn’t required for suboxone treatment just a short therapy session, which in my experience is a joke. They usually use CDCAs instead of actual therapists. IOP can be expensive

 

[wheresmy.dragon]

Hey @AddictedAndHatingIt

300mg-400mg per day Oxycodone (Percocet; Oxycontin) is pretty hefty. Buprenorphine is, among other things, an Opioid agonist. It's going to do what Oxycodone does. There are nuances to the pharmacology of Buprenorphine, but for our purposes, Buprenorphine is just another Opioid, like Hydrocodone (Vicodin; Lortab) or Oxycodone.

In short, B uprenorphine is significantly more mild/less potent than the aforementioned two Opioids. Buprenorphine is generally more successful for those with a comparatively smaller habit than some others. Don't get me wrong, I've known some of the most-dependent junkies ever going on Buprenorphine with success. However, most serious junkies I've ever known will say that Methadone was the only thing that cut it.

It can work great, but I feel you might need Methadone to actually be successful. Regardless of the option chosen, it's always best to bring everything to the table. Work a program, stay away from triggers and find something you love doing to replace what you've lost from your dependence. Don't ever make it just about the medicine or it will be a failure.

Agreed serious opioid addiction methadone works best as its an easy.taper to a point,but completely getting off it is hell,if you keep a good diet ,exercise and a regime or routine , it can.be done.
I always taper off methadone i.have little experience with.bupes but it has its nuance