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MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 4)

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Cotcha Yankinov said:
Of course, and always guys and girls feel free to ask any questions in here or PM me.

I think the similarities between LTC sufferers and long term SSRI withdrawal sufferers are interesting, the brain zaps especially. I think what may be happening is that there are longer term compensations for alterations in serotonin activity. For example, maybe after a big reduction in serotonin signaling after MDMA use (from receptor downregulation and other natural homeostatic mechanisms like pre-synaptic autoreceptor activation) or SSRI withdrawal results in some synapses reorganizing, and it takes a while for them to reset. That both an LTC sufferer and an SSRI withdrawal sufferer suffer very similar symptoms, but that we know SSRI withdrawal sufferers aren't experiencing any actually brain injury, is very reassuring.
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True, although wouldn't it be possible that in long term SSRI users they are suffering from axon loss as well, due to axons dying back because of the increase in serotonin availability? Hence it takes a while for axons to regrow? If it was true though, I would think that any MDMA related depression would get worse in the long run by taking SSRIs....which in all the research I've done I haven't seen a report of that.
 
The pattern and mechanism of dendrite and axonal degeneration that's possible with high dose IV MDMA binge administration to small hyperthermic animals is pretty unique, this isn't something you'd see with SSRI withdrawal as a compensatory mechanism. Just altered synaptic plasticity, not full on axon loss.

I think most people with LTCs are probably going to be helped in the long run by SSRIs if they don't get too many side effects, but there is also cardio that would be a great substitute and would be safer.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
The pattern and mechanism of dendrite and axonal degeneration that's possible with high dose IV MDMA binge administration to small hyperthermic animals is pretty unique, this isn't something you'd see with SSRI withdrawal as a compensatory mechanism. Just altered synaptic plasticity, not full on axon loss.

I think most people with LTCs are probably going to be helped in the long run by SSRIs if they don't get too many side effects, but there is also cardio that would be a great substitute and would be safer.
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So can you explain why SSRIs wouldn't cause further receptor down regulation, and hence delayed recovery? So other studies don't show any substantial damage? Not trying to be a dick lol I'm just curious. I'm not sure if you've read any of firstbadcomedown's posts but he has like the total opposite view point and he's pretty convincing....then again his raving about curcumin is why I took it......and then I ended up in a mental health unit lol.
 
Oh lol feel free to ask any questions, trust me. Of course what I say isn't fact, and to be honest it's not like we have a tremendous amount of data, but we do have some anecdotal reports of SSRIs helping people suffering from ill effects after MDMA, including LTCs.

SSRIs do cause receptor downregulation, and this is actually how they mediate some of their beneficial effects (downregulation of 5HT2A and 5HT2C receptors that can be over expressed in depressed patients for example), but overall serotonin signaling like through anti-anxiety and pro oxytocin 5HT1A is probably very increased.

Desensitization of pre synaptic auto receptors like 5HT1B and 5HT1D have also been linked to beneficial antidepressant response, because once those homeostatic receptors are downregulated, serotonin activity increases.

I think it's probably a good idea to look beyond the idea of receptor downregulation and upregulation - there's a whole lot more to the brain (and antidepressant response) than receptor homeostasis. Synaptic reorganization for example plays a huge role in antidepressant response. Effects on gene expression are being more and more found to play a significant role in drug response.

If FBC has anything specific to say then you're welcome to post what he says here as a differing opinion which I could then give my take on or just let it be. I can't recall what he says on SSRIs. But you're more than welcome to ask any questions.
 
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I'm 2 years and 9 months since I od on pure moon rocks. 1.5 g !!! I struggled to make an improvement but did by month 4-5. I suffered hard derealization and depersonalization. I quit smoking weed as I would feel super weird and fucked up. I suffered a concussion as soon as I was starting to feel better then also suffered a traumatic event which led me to smoking again. Depression and working out went out the window and I'm suffering all kinds of issues now after I col turkeyed benzo use for a decade. My mind has totally gone down hill and am looking for anyone that has had similar experience. I have not used alcohol or drugs in 8 months and have been eating well and doing the g right supplements. My MDMA use was sporadic maybe 25-30 times in 2-3 year window with at least half those on consecutive binge days and in higher amounts. Nothing close to my od. I was drinking and don't remember how I let myself eat my stash in my pocket. I'm doing everything I can to get better but am feeling like I just want to give up!
 
I'm starting to really wonder if what I consumed wasnt molly at all. I know its kinda late for that revelation. But some one mentioned that bath salts are sometimes sold as molly and that really started freking me out. Does anyone know about the efects of bath salts? I read somewhere that the efects come on rather quickly. And I remember fealing the efects of the pill I took a lot sooner then expected. I was also having bad eye wiggles and a lot of panic which eventualy faded in to an uneasy euphoria fealing. All this time I've been pretty convinced molly did this to me. The guy that gave it to me swore it was tested (and he was taking it too) but now I have my doubts. Any insight is apreciated.
 
Cold turkying benzos can take a while to get over, but eventually the brain will start to reset. If you're not sleeping well I would try to learn mindfulness and meditating on the breath to help you get some rest at night.
 
Bath salts really aren't that bad, they can induce psychosis but by and large that don't appear to be neurotoxic, just fairly strong and stimulating. Eye wiggles are typical of MDMA though anywho.
 
My tinnitus is so loud now, I hear it 24/7. I'm not sure what to do anymore. I took melatonin last night and it gave me bad sleep paralysis. Took remeron and still didn't sleep, even tried mindfulness. I can't go on like this, I'm always going to regret the steps I've taken to lead me where I am. My life is going to fall apart, I know it. Being 30 years old makes this so much worse.... I should have never taken the remeron, it's horrible for HPPD. I should have just toughed it out. I know that's why I'm still struggling.
 
I knew there was a fucking reason I stayed away from fucking hard drugs..... And now it slaps me in the face. I'm done taking remeron I don't fucking care if my doc wants me to stay on it....it is one of the worst things for HPPD and now I'm paying the price. Something got fucked in my brain that night I ODd and I fucked it more by smoking and boozing again for 2 nights....then something as simple as jerking ruined me.....now I'm permanently fucked and fucking myself more with meds. Everyone thinks it's just depression.... Fuck them too, it's not. I've never had the slightest hint of depression in my life. Who wouldn't be depressed or anxious if they hadn't slept for 2 weeks? Oh let's give him an AD the docs say....HOW ABOUT GIVING HIM A FUCKING SLEEPING MED FIRST!!!!! I tried to convince myself it was all anxiety or depression.... Bullshit....I felt like I was dying those first 4 days I ODd with whole body spasms and massive chills and shivering, same thing again during the relapse. killer stomach pains and diahrea, could barely eat an orange.

Sorry I'm venting.
 
Something I have found that works in the moments like this is to reach out to a close friend or loved one. Tell them how you are feeling, joke around, bust balls, whatever. Its corny but love and good feelings work really well for me.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Cold turkying benzos can take a while to get over, but eventually the brain will start to reset. If you're not sleeping well I would try to learn mindfulness and meditating on the breath to help you get some rest at night.
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I really have to try harder at this.....I just can't shut my mind down..... And when I start to drift off I feel pins and needles and I wake up. Now the tinnitus is raging and wooshing to boot. I'm consciously keeping myself awake it's weird. I have a physical on Monday.... I'm going to ask about something else, maybe trazodone. The first comedown and the second (after the second bachelor party), I took lunesta for 3 days each.... Seemed to help set me back on track.
 
Can somebody explain this inherent contradiction in mindfulness? Its really scaring me and kind of makes me want to just give up and do all the other recovery things. I don't think I am making much progress with meditation.

If you are supposed to let go of your thoughts, desires, etc then what exactly is the point of doing anything in the first place? I am not able to rationalize this and its one of the scary thoughts I get when I do it. Also, if you aren't supposed to think about getting better then isn't this itself an inherent contradiction in that for mental healh stuff people say go get help etc but then the "help" is this mindfulness therapy which seems to have the opposite message of "not changing".

I feel like all this stuff and thinking about it is just delaying my recovery and if that is the case maybe I am better off just with other things?
 
Thanks fnono. My bed has become a coffin to me, I'm deathly scared of it lol. The people around me have had enough and don't want to hear it anymore.... Wearing my welcome so to speak. I just want to sleep like I used to w/o meds, I'd give anything, even an arm or an eye lol.

Do you have tinnitus? Hows the trazodone going?
 
ADubbs said:
I really have to try harder at this.....I just can't shut my mind down..... And when I start to drift off I feel pins and needles and I wake up. Now the tinnitus is raging and wooshing to boot. I'm consciously keeping myself awake it's weird. I have a physical on Monday.... I'm going to ask about something else, maybe trazodone. The first comedown and the second (after the second bachelor party), I took lunesta for 3 days each.... Seemed to help set me back on track.
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Its really good to notice this. The idea here is that your brain is still perfectly capable of sleep but our minds are just too busy for that sleeping part of the brain to take over. It can take some practice to get a handle on mindfulness, but I think that a good way to start to practice is just by counting to 10 out loud in your head over and over, just trying to only hear the numbers and stare into the inside of your eyelids for starters. You can count slower and slower if you feel like you can drag out the silence in between the numbers. As soon as you become distracted or find yourself lost in thought (which can happen quite a lot at first), return yourself to the numbers.

I would try Belsomra, although its not cheap unfortunately. It caused some increased sleep paralysis at first for me when I tried it a while ago but its important to realize that sleep paralysis is really your brain trying to sleep. It could be that part of your brain is being wakeful while the other part of your brain that paralyzes you during your sleep (to keep you from acting out your dreams) is still on. But it does mean that your brain is trying to get some rest. The other part of your more conscious "voice in the head/wandering thoughts" brain could still be running wild.

I hope you feel better soon.
 
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ADubbs said:
I knew there was a fucking reason I stayed away from fucking hard drugs..... And now it slaps me in the face. I'm done taking remeron I don't fucking care if my doc wants me to stay on it....it is one of the worst things for HPPD and now I'm paying the price. Something got fucked in my brain that night I ODd and I fucked it more by smoking and boozing again for 2 nights....then something as simple as jerking ruined me.....now I'm permanently fucked and fucking myself more with meds. Everyone thinks it's just depression.... Fuck them too, it's not. I've never had the slightest hint of depression in my life. Who wouldn't be depressed or anxious if they hadn't slept for 2 weeks? Oh let's give him an AD the docs say....HOW ABOUT GIVING HIM A FUCKING SLEEPING MED FIRST!!!!! I tried to convince myself it was all anxiety or depression.... Bullshit....I felt like I was dying those first 4 days I ODd with whole body spasms and massive chills and shivering, same thing again during the relapse. killer stomach pains and diahrea, could barely eat an orange.

Sorry I'm venting.
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No need to apoligize for venting. I think everyone here can understand how overwhelming this is. Its nice to have somewhere to go to let it all out. Especialy when you dont feal like you can open up to the people around you. Thats what were here for.
 
socrilus said:
If you are supposed to let go of your thoughts, desires, etc then what exactly is the point of doing anything in the first place?
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Rational conscious thought is very important and we wouldn't want that to vanish completely by any means, but I wouldn't want someone to constantly be at the mercy of their thoughts if their thoughts are frequently negative and ruminating. I think the goal is to strike a balance between reducing negative rumination/anxiety/lost in thought and maintaining intact conscious decision making. This probably involves learning mindfulness with a couple concentrated sessions of mindfulness a day, and then learning to apply it throughout the day when having conscious thought isn't important to attaining goals, or that rather not having conscious thought will help you more with a goal of say, achieving mental health (in the long run).

socrilus said:
I am not able to rationalize this and its one of the scary thoughts I get when I do it. Also, if you aren't supposed to think about getting better then isn't this itself an inherent contradiction in that for mental healh stuff people say go get help etc but then the "help" is this mindfulness therapy which seems to have the opposite message of "not changing". I feel like all this stuff and thinking about it is just delaying my recovery and if that is the case maybe I am better off just with other things?
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If you don't feel like mindfulness is good for your mental health then by all means try the other routes like cardio and cognitive behavioral therapy, and of course it would be great to talk to a psychologist about this, but just to put my two cents in about the goal of mindfulness and what that means for an LTC; The ultimate goal of mindfulness really is to just stay in the present. Not regretting the past, or worrying about the future. Just simply paying attention to the present moment. The present moment could be bad - you could be in emotional pain, but the goal is to not have too many thoughts about the pain. The idea here is that if you practice mindfulness enough and become proficient at it, and very importantly the physiological changes come along with that, then the present moment will become better.

So you're changing your thought patterns and your biology, but it does take some time. And having almost existential crisis type thoughts interrupting you during/after the meditation is really the opposite of mindfulness, so I wouldn't call that successful mindfulness I suppose. If those thoughts are bothering you, its ironic that mindfulness is really supposed to quell those sorts of thoughts if done successfully.

I think there are times for cognitive thought and times for the brain to relax and try to just stay in the present moment. As far as being able to let your mind go blank but still retaining your typical life goals/desires and that sort of stuff, bedtime is a very good example. Letting your mind go blank during bedtime to let yourself get some rest is absolutely conducive to achieving life goals etc, because you need your batteries fully charged to go about your day at 100%. Yet some people find themselves awake until 3am ruminating, lost in thought, thinking about this scenario or that scenario, this memory or that conversation they had 5 days ago. Being lost in thought at 3am when they could've been sleeping had they been proficient at mindfulness (and had their brain adapted physiologically to the mindfulness practiced over the seasons) is a perfect example of when its a good idea to let go of thoughts and desires, not because you want to let go of those thoughts and desires indefinitely, but rather that you will be more capable of attaining those goals (attaining mental health for example) if you can let go of the thoughts when they are not actually helping you.

So I guess I wouldn't say that mindfulness is about "not changing", as much as it is learning to stay in the present moment when your theorycrafting/problem solving mind doesn't need to be kicked on. Over-analyzing can give people a lot of grief when it comes to LTCs, but more regular mental issues as well. I think its very frequently the people who over-analyze that get LTCs (at least some of the people I've asked have claimed to have issues with constantly thinking before their LTC).

I hope this was helpful. Feel free to ask any questions, and as always do whatever you think is right for you. If your mind is pushing back against you when you try to do mindfulness, that might be a sign of needing to practice it more if its not too mentally destabilizing. I would consider it akin to becoming sore after working out.
 
Cotcha Yankinov said:
Bath salts really aren't that bad, they can induce psychosis but by and large that don't appear to be neurotoxic, just fairly strong and stimulating. Eye wiggles are typical of MDMA though anywho.
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Thanks. I was definatley in panic mode last night. I know the posibility that I may have ingested something other then mdma wont change my recovery or take back the progress I've already made, but my anxiety has been really bad this week, and every little thing can set me off. Its most likely because I havent been sleeping well lately. my work schedual changed so now I have to be up at 5 am every morning. Its been a rough transition.
 
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