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MDMA Recovery (Stories & Support - 4)

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If I sucked it up like a man and didn't take additional drugs I'd be fine probably, I only gave it 3 weeks. WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON WITH MEEEEEEE. I was so healthy and happy before all this.
 
socrilus said:
I was just making a point that the way you feel can create the initial impulse for negative thinking about the way you feel itself. Whereas traditional cognitive behavioral theory says its the way you think that results in how you feel. Basically I was just saying the only reason for my worrying thoughts etc is the way I feel in the present moment itself. I was just saying how resolving the way I felt even though its temporary and not a long term solution simultaneously got rid of the negative thinking.

Which is why I don't believe these are "deep rooted" thought patterns. If that was the case then feeling better would still resolve in the same negative thinking but it doesnt.
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I think I've been explaining myself rather poorly lol - what I'm trying to say is that the thought patterns are contributing to the physiology that makes you feel bad. That isn't to say that succesfull meditation for 15 minutes will result in an immediate return to normality-ish like a benzo because neuroplasticity can take a while (for example CBT can increase brain volume, but that's not something you would expect overnight).

So the rumination could be a symptom of a larger problem, whatever it is, but decreasing rumination is still a great idea for recovery for many different reasons.

As far as benzos causing improvement of rumination, I think it's important to realize that it wouldn't be 100% clear cut that benzos are causing improvement of the primary issue (whatever it is) and then the rumination improves because you feel better. For all we know you could be experiencing improvement of the more primary symptoms and feeling better because of differences in communication between brain regions, and that could be a decrease in the activity of the rumination brain regions. It is the rumination regions that communicate with the emotional regions after all.

The other way to think about this is that brain regions have bi-directional communication. For example, an over simplification would be that there is a "rumination/anxiety region" and a "primary issue" region. It could be that an increase in the activity of the primary issue region leads to an increase in the activity of the rumination region, and vice versa. It could also be that a decrease in the activity of either region leads to a decrease in the activity of the other. So decreasing rumination is still a good therapeutic target and benzos could be helping by reducing rumination related biology.

But if improvement of different symptoms happen with taking a benzo you would have to look at the biology very very carefully to tease apart what's truly causing what, or if a benzo is separately causing improvement in both rumination and depression etc., although benzos are most classically known for reducing anxiety/rumination.

I personally would expect the improvement of other issues to be a result of balancing out the activity of a network called the default mode network that's heavily implicated in ruminating depression and many other mental illnesses. Reduced numbers of benzodiazepine receptors in the default mode network (specifically the posterior cingulate cortex) is implicated in neuropsychiatric disease for example.

The prefrontal cortex (that is a very cognitive region) transmits a lot of data to the limbic system that deals with emotions. The frontal cortex can transmit abstractly positive or negative thoughts to the limbic system and then the limbic system will produce those respective feelings. Anterior cingulotomy (removal of the anterior cingulate cortex) has classically been used to interrupt transmission of abstractly negative thoughts traveling from this more cognitive frontal cortex to the limbic system. Obviously mindfulness and other strategies should be tried thoroughly to turn off these abstractly negative thoughts and allow that circuit to reset but to this day it's still used as a last last resort for major depression.

So just thought I would throw it out there that there are mechanisms delineated by which negative thoughts can cause mental illness and disruption of the negative thoughts results in improvement.
 
I'm sorry Adubbs :( I personally wouldn't jump up on the mirtazapine dosage. What's probably happened now is that you're desensitized to the sedating anti-histamine effect (that effect people gain tolerance to pretty quickly).

I think some other options for sleep to talk to doctors about are Clonidine, Belsomra, and then more seriously Risperidone and Klonopin. If Risperidone works for sleep and doesn't cause too much lethargy then it could be good long term, and Klonopin could also be good for longer term. If a population of one means anything my friend has used it for his sleeping troubles after ecstasy for 4-ish years and he said his sleep got even better after the second year.

I hope you feel better soon. Some people do have a lot of success with running for half an hour or more for insomnia.
 
So the 30 mg will just make me more agitated? I might try 22.5 for a few days until i meet with Abraham on Monday.
 
Agreed that benzos are probably acting on the rumination regions or whatever and thus decreasing thoughts directly as well.

What I was just trying to say is that there aren't longstanding thought patterns causinng this. Its more that like you said the rumination areas of the brain etc have gone out of control for some reason. However, my point is that this "reason" is not activated by "habit", at least initially. Its sort of like I got "thrown" into this mess if you know what I mean. Most mindfulness things don't talk about this entrance into anxiety/depression. Jon Kabat makes reference to mindfulness to prevent relapse. So that is basically preventing the depression even before it occurs again. I just haven't been able to resonate with this as well since again I got "thrown" into it and regardless of what my thought patterns were prior to the mental symptoms I still suffer with it. If you know what I mean.

So in the case of benzos for me at least if they reduce rumination related biology (temporarily for the duration of action) which reduces everything else then that tells me that the biology is a strong component. Problem is we don't know everything about the biology otherwise this is probably correctable at a much faster rate medically. And im sure one day it will be.
 
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What's funny is that all of you are trying to find the answers with medication, just like I did. It's a temporary fix for a long term problem if YOU DON'T PRACTICE mindfullness and prevent the anxiety before it does legitimately turn into a longer problem. Don't make the same mistake I did and spend months looking for a quick fix. I may have been better off than how I am now. Look back at my post from earlier today. Download the audio book for free, relax, and listen.

Trust me on this guys. I've taken klonopin, MG, Vitamin B, vitamin C, fish oils, etc. I work for a damn supplement company. Things didn't start making sense until I learned what anxiety actually does to you from another source than internet forums. LTC may as well be a general anxiety disorder for all intents and purposes. Is it lifelong? Probably not, but the best thing I did was stop treating it like something that was going to go away on its own.
 
CloudIX said:
What's funny is that all of you are trying to find the answers with medication, just like I did. It's a temporary fix for a long term problem if YOU DON'T PRACTICE mindfullness and prevent the anxiety before it does legitimately turn into a longer problem. Don't make the same mistake I did and spend months looking for a quick fix. I may have been better off than how I am now. Look back at my post from earlier today. Download the audio book for free, relax, and listen.

Trust me on this guys. I've taken klonopin, MG, Vitamin B, vitamin C, fish oils, etc. I work for a damn supplement company. Things didn't start making sense until I learned what anxiety actually does to you from another source than internet forums. LTC may as well be a general anxiety disorder for all intents and purposes. Is it lifelong? Probably not, but the best thing I did was stop treating it like something that was going to go away on its own.
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I dont think the supps are useless. At the same time, what exactly is causing the GAD/Depression? Often times in therapy people try to get to their core beliefs which are causing the disorder. Then by addressing those get better.

While I do agree that right now treating it psychologically can help, I don't think the origin of the problem is psychological. Its just that we have to influence the biology psychologically if you know what I mean. I think this is sort of what Cotcha is getting at. A mind over matter sort of approach.

Usually its prolonged stress that causes anxiety. But when its an LTC it basically happens after the drug with an absence of external stress. The explanation of THIS is what I am wondering. Yea I know weed can do it too or other drugs but even for all of those I'd like to at least know "why" that sort of reaction happens in the first instance to begin with.
 
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My father went through severe depression, and my sister, and my aunt. My brother was also a bad coke addict. Now this for me! Of course!
 
socrilus said:
I dont think the supps are useless. At the same time, what exactly is causing the GAD/Depression? Often times in therapy people try to get to their core beliefs which are causing the disorder. Then by addressing those get better.

While I do agree that right now treating it psychologically can help, I don't think the origin of the problem is psychological. Its just that we have to influence the biology psychologically if you know what I mean. I think this is sort of what Cotcha is getting at.
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Useless? No of course not. But coming from someone that religiously took supplements before my initial attack, it didn't make sense to take more of the same thing I had already been taking, nor that continuing to take them helped at all. It gave me temporary relief when someone would say, "oh MG REALLY helped" then everyone jumped on the MG train.....and 2 months later they are back wondering what other supplement may help since the physiological placebo effects of MG wore off. I don't think its a matter of addressing any core beliefs but addressing your current thoughts that are overlooked. Getting inside your head and noticing patters are whats important.

Personally, I believe that everyone in these threads were a born worrier. I know I was. The only thing that changed, was that now I was having physical symptoms of worry. Probably because I let the first panic attack phsyc me out and I went looking for answers in the wrong places and found symptoms that I PUT IN MY HEAD to feel. Training my nervous system to react to anything I thought was out of the ordinary. Everyone anxious thought I have ever had started with...

What if...

Anyway, i'm just trying to help you guys out and for some of you that are desperate, trust me.
 
ADubbs said:
So the 30 mg will just make me more agitated? I might try 22.5 for a few days until i meet with Abraham on Monday.
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30mg was still an okay dose for me for sleep. I think mirtazapine starts to become a different med somewhere above that, 45mg or so. But alas everyone is different. OTC doxylamine Succinate is worth a try if we're talking a few days here.

There is a wide range of reactions to gabapentin as far as dependence. Some people have little to no dependence issues while some people have to taper for weeks similar to a benzo. But its certainly okay to try. I liked it for sleep but I gained tolerance to it after a couple months.

The other thing you could try are the newer Z drug hypnotics like Ambien, specifically extended release Zolpidem.
 
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socrilus said:
What I was just trying to say is that there aren't longstanding thought patterns causinng this. Its more that like you said the rumination areas of the brain etc have gone out of control for some reason. However, my point is that this "reason" is not activated by "habit", at least initially. Its sort of like I got "thrown" into this mess if you know what I mean. Most mindfulness things don't talk about this entrance into anxiety/depression. Jon Kabat makes reference to mindfulness to prevent relapse. So that is basically preventing the depression even before it occurs again. I just haven't been able to resonate with this as well since again I got "thrown" into it and regardless of what my thought patterns were prior to the mental symptoms I still suffer with it. If you know what I mean.

So in the case of benzos for me at least if they reduce rumination related biology (temporarily for the duration of action) which reduces everything else then that tells me that the biology is a strong component. Problem is we don't know everything about the biology otherwise this is probably correctable at a much faster rate medically. And im sure one day it will be.
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From a purely objective point of view you might be able to think about a drug providing certain "input" and an environment providing certain "input" that could result in the same sort of behavior and biology. So while it may not seem like the thought patterns are engrained because of habit, what takes an environment many years to produce behavior/biology wise a drug can produce pretty darn fast.

But I totally get what you're saying about the biology and I agree that there should be a medical cure for LTCs, just as there should be for ruminating depression/anxiety.

socrilus said:
While I do agree that right now treating it psychologically can help, I don't think the origin of the problem is psychological. Its just that we have to influence the biology psychologically if you know what I mean. I think this is sort of what Cotcha is getting at. A mind over matter sort of approach
Click to expand...

^This. But if you do look closely enough, the divide between psychological and biological does begin to blur. Currently my best theory involves a mechanism by which MDMA (temporarily) strengthens/disrupts neuroplasticity, then on the comedown when anxiety/depression is common and there is a strange biological state of running low on serotonin signaling whilist running high on norepinephrine/dopamine with temporary neural changes associated with sleep deprivation/cortisol (increased excitability), the adaptations to that biological/psychological state are somewhat engrained. You'll slowly reset but it can take some time.

Just to overview on that theory again, the idea is that MDMA can cause increased neuroplasticity while in a strange biological state, then the state is somewhat engrained and plasticity is temporarily reduced. So those abnormal connections aren't normalized like they would normally be (if they hadn't been formed with strong neuroplasticity) and they weren't able to be trimmed very much the next couple days when neuroplasticity wasn't running at 100%. These connections are normalized with time regardless but its probably a pretty good idea to try not to use these connections, which is where mindfulness comes in.

There was some poor soul who had suffered an LTC for a long time, and when he went back some time later to his bed where it all started he had a horrible recurrence of symptoms, BUT he was able to sleep on the couch. This was very much my situation as well. There is something known as conditioned place avoidance. Lets say you take a rat and you put it in a cage with two different floor textures, rough and smooth. If you always shock it whenever it walks onto the rough surface, it will develop conditioned place avoidance for that rough floor, and will display xyz symptoms if you put it in a cage with the rough floor.

The mind takes in lots of info and packages it together with what is known as sensory binding. So if you happened to be in your bed etc. while you're having your initial LTC, your mind is piecing together information and associating all those negative things with the context/location of your bed. So the environment/context of the bed was associated with the LTC in this situation. So next time this person gets in that specific bed the context will probably make a lot of circuits come alive (the same circuits that were firing when they initially developed their LTC, ie neurons that fire together wire together) - but whatever he can do to quiet those circuits with techniques like mindfulness and deep breathing will help desensitize his reaction faster and let those circuits atrophy faster. As opposed to say, catastrophizing and panicking, which is pretty much specifically the thing to avoid ;)

That sort of plasticity seems to be pretty strong in LTC sufferers. I think there is a good chance that, similar to major depression sufferers, people with LTCs have altered plasticity. Something like a particular environment triggering a reaction because of its association to the LTC is not entirely within one's control, but its important to do what we can to not let our minds run wild if we can help it. The trippy thing is when you start thinking about environments in terms of just "living inside one's head", and not necessarily a specific location. I guess the location is within our body.

Hope this was helpful. As always any questions are welcome. Don't give up guys, it just takes a while for the brain to reset, but there are things that will speed up that process like mindfulness and cardio. Medications might work for some people too.
 
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Thanks cotcha, good posts as always. I just read somedud's posts and got really sad by them. He was on SSRIs and they didn't help him. He also couldn't sleep without sleep aids, which is me! I mean....I don't know, I don't know why I'm getting worse.... it makes no sense.
FBC posted that Somedud also felt 90% better on SSRIs.....kinda feels like me.

Anyone have an idea how multendier is doing?
 
Sorry I forget, did you try SSRIs Adubbs?

But I think the sleeping issues are pretty common but go away reliably if you give it time and do what you can psychologically to practice letting your mind fall asleep.

I slept absolutely horribly for a couple years until I started practicing mindfulness. And when I say horribly I mean absolutely horribly, up till 5am every morning and awake by 7-8am and many nights skipped entirely, sometimes 3-4 days in a row with zero sleep. Mind you I've had insomnia since an infant it was just way worse after the LTC. My dads brother had pretty severe insomnia as well.

But anyways it took a good while of practicing mindfulness, probably 3 months of daily practice to start making a big difference in how much I slept and how I faired throughout the day. I don't think I noticed much of any difference until a couple weeks into the mindfulness, which makes it one of those things that's easy to give up on because you're not seeing results. Hell, even working out you can see results a month. But the important thing to remember is that people overestimate how much they can do in a couple months and underestimate how much they can do in a couple years.

I haven't heard from Muld, I wonder if she's still in a mental health facility. I do think it's important to try not to focus on the Somedud type cases, although I can't say I know too much about him (if he tried mindfulness and CBT religiously etc, if he had pre-existing issues and was trying to recover in a shitty environment).

The other thing is that I think bluelight and Internet searching doesn't help some people and maybe they try not to do that and sign in as much, someone PM'd me the other day to tell me that their issues are all a thing of the past for them now and that they're moving on and probably won't be logging in again. He did a meditation retreat interestingly.
 
I read somedud did MDMA again like a second time or something during the LTC so honestly I wouldn't compare since that can set back recovery a lot. Like Cotcha I'm not sure either but I think I recall somebody mentioning this earlier in this thread or some related one.
 
I think the having taken MDMA again part is indeed correct.

Not having thoroughly tried mindfulness, cardio, CBT and different medications (medications aimed at treating underlying somewhat pre-existing or pre-disposed to mental illness) are all things to pay attention to if someone is saying they're not better after a long time of sobriety.

The people who really abused MDMA (hundreds of pills, 10 at a time etc) are also probably a different situation.
 
Yeah logging in a 100 times a day isn't helping, this will be my last post for a while I think. Here I am again yet lying awake at 2 am even after the Remeron. Brain zaps are back, and the huge anxiety jolt right before falling sleep isnt helping. I didn't have insomnia before all this, usually slept like a baby. Didn't have any depression before either. I just feel myself going down the road of starting more and more meds, then they poop out and I'm fucked. And I have withdrawal from the meds too. I have an OCD personality kinda, as you can probably tell, hence why I can't help logging in. All I wanna do is cry all day, it's fucked lol. I have conversations in my head with people while lying here and waiting for sleep.
 
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