What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[indigoaura]

@mars2025 I can see how perhaps some people are not sensitive to these byproducts, or their livers handle them in a different way due to genetic factors or whatnot, and so maybe some people are capable of feeling magic from MehDMA. This is not something I have seen personally, yet. So far, the responses I have seen to batches of MDMA have been consistent from person to person. Although I recall @Hilopsilo seeing a group respond differently to the same batch. That could be due to an inconsistent distribution of chemicals in the end product though.

 

[thegreenhand]

Sorry if this has been done already, but has someone done a double blind experiment at home to see if mehDMA and MDMA can be distinguished? Just asking because the recent posts have kinda talked about it

 

[Negi]

So, obviously, testing companies are leaving information out. It may not be that they CAN'T detect it, just that they do not deem it significant enough to report.

Pretty much every testing service that publishes results will include synthesis byproducts when they appear.

Rave-it Safe

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8325 - Plata o Plomo, 8325

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.ecstasydata.org

At least two synthesis impurities present, approx. 0.6 mg per tablet.

SaferParty.ch

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8314 - Skype, 8314

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.ecstasydata.org

At least three synthesis impurities present, approx. 15.3 mg per tablet.

DrugsData

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7989 - 1UP, 7989

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.ecstasydata.org

MDA 2-aldoxime analog aka synthesis by-product

Of the testing services that publish the most results on DrugsData.org only Checkit seems to not list synthesis byproducts if they do appear (someone should shoot them an email to confirm this).

Edit: DrugsData in particular is more than willing to say when a sample contains an unidentified chemical, see https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8226

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Negi, you know good and well that these pill reports that show only MDMA in a 500 mg pill are ignoring a ton of binders, fillers, and other ingredients. We also know from published research that synth byproducts are found in almost ALL apprehended street MDMA. That is how law enforcement tracks producers/importers/synth methods. So, obviously, testing companies are leaving information out. It may not be that they CAN'T detect it, just that they do not deem it significant enough to report.

We have published research showing that street MDMA contains synth byproducts that are different depending on synth method.
We have published research showing that synth byproducts can block the effects of MDMA.
It is not a huge stretch to hypothesize that this could be the core of the issue.

Once the culprit is identified, it would be a minor adjustment for testing companies to start reporting its presence in submitted samples.

I think the rule of hand is that usually the binder and mdma are pressed together in equal amounts usually its a calcium binder so a 240 mg mdma pill will also have 240 mg calcium binder leading to 480 mg total weight but some pressers vary how much total % of the weight is binder.

 

[indigoaura]

Each sample of synthetic drug has its own, characteristic composition of impurities dependent on the way of its production and preparation for distribution. This enables comparative analysis of the drugs seizures.

Link: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003

So, when I send in a sample of crystal, and it is 80% out of 100% total possible purity, what is the other 20% of the sample? I am not provided with any information on the other 20% of the sample, all I know is that 20% is NOT MDMA. @Hilopsilo had a similar result with his meh sample, but his sample with typical results was a much higher purity.

@Negi, maybe you misunderstand what I am trying to convey here. I don't doubt that companies report the impurities when they deem them significant enough to report, and when they show up with their analysis. One of the meh samples I sent to Drugs Data had a specific impurity listed in the result.

But, I don't think those impurities are being reported for every sample, such as these situations where a sample is 80% MDMA and 20% ???.

 

[indigoaura]

I also want to point out that in that article they are not running GCMS on the MDMA. They extract the contaminants first and then run GCMS on the contaminants.

This is interesting...

We found that different variants of reductive amination might be also discriminated. For example we identified marker of cyanoborohydride reduction (NaBH3CN), 2- (dimethylamino)-2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)- propanenitrile. Mass spectrum of this compound is presented in Fig. 15 and the mechanism of its formation is presented in Fig. 16. In impurity profiles of MDMA samples prepared by this method we also identified an imine corresponding to compound 4, which mass spectrum is presented in Fig. 17. All these compounds were identified only in this method

Haven't several people theorized that the issue is in the reductive amination stage?

 

[TripSitterNZ]

I also want to point out that in that article they are not running GCMS on the MDMA. They extract the contaminants first and then run GCMS on the contaminants.

This is interesting...



Haven't several people theorized that the issue is in the reductive amination stage?

Using different reductive amination methods leads to many different and intermediate mdma compounds and mda in some cases.

I think the big impurities are usually starting materials left over which didn't react and alot of solvent. Anhydrous acetone washes will usually remove like 10% of product of brown crystals black mdma washed will have to 20% + product weight reduced. This leaves the mdma looking more white and is usually done by people worried about toxic synthesis byproducts.

I believe your 80% sample would probably be like 10-16% could be just the HCL Salt leaving a few % of random synthesis impurities.

 

[draculic acid69]

I think the rule of hand is that usually the binder and mdma are pressed together in equal amounts usually its a calcium binder so a 240 mg mdma pill will also have 240 mg calcium binder leading to 480 mg total weight but some pressers vary how much total % of the weight is binder.

Its magnesium in the binder not calcium.mg stearate is what's used.
Just looked at a site bout pressing pills and they're using dicalcium phosphate as a filler.ive never seen this in pharmaceuticals or heard of it being used before.there using it as the main filler instead of cellulose or lactose or whatever.

 

[indigoaura]

@TripSitterNZ As I have posted several times now, International Energy Control does not use the standard that counts the HCL salt as 16% of MDMA. They are not including the HCL salt in their estimations. Read the article that I linked from Erowid IN FULL all the way to the bottom of the article and you will get to the section that describes the methodology International Energy Control uses. The 20% is NOT HCL salt.

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Its magnesium in the binder not calcium.mg stearate is what's used.
Just looked at a site bout pressing pills and they're using dicalcium phosphate as a filler.ive never seen this in pharmaceuticals or heard of it being used before.there using it as the main filler instead of cellulose or lactose or whatever.

Lol they can use anything they want at the end of the day calcium binders are more common. Personally thats what i see in pressed machines is a 50% mix of mdma and calcium binder but the binder is up to whatever people can get ahold of. Well you may read the net til the end of time you aint pressing pills yourself and its evident your lack of knowledge of how mdma is supplied pressed and made.

 

[draculic acid69]

Lol they can use anything they want at the end of the day calcium binders are more common. Personally thats what i see in pressed machines is a 50% mix of mdma and calcium binder but the binder is up to whatever people can get ahold of. Well you may read the net til the end of time you aint pressing pills yourself and its evident your lack of knowledge of how mdma is supplied pressed and made.

Like you know all.

 

[psy997]

Like you know all.

My biggest issue with this thread as it's transpired the past few weeks.

 

[Simosom]

2017 my wife took a blue Rolls-Royce pill with me at the techno party.
Pill had a 200 mg stamp on it and extasy data tested it as MDMA 200 mg. Marguis went straight to black.

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #5794 - Blue Rolls Royce, 5794 (m)

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.ecstasydata.org

The pill, i had tried before and by experience it was 200 mg.
So, my wife was not total virgin, she had one E experience back in 2005 where she took half untested pill and she had a good time, not life changing experience or typical first time MDMA experience.
The Rolls Royce pill she had been eating during the night by 1/3 every couple of hours, as i though that 100mg at once might be too much for her, she is very skinny and light.
The overall experience for her was mongy, she spent the night staying in one place, not dancing at all, just chit-chated with her friend who was drinking votka.
Yes, the dose migh have been too low, but 60-70 mg of good magic stuff would def. made her rolling.

 

[Negi]

2017 my wife took a blue Rolls-Royce pill with me at the techno party.
Pill had a 200 mg stamp on it and extasy data tested it as MDMA 200 mg. Marguis went straight to black.

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #5794 - Blue Rolls Royce, 5794 (m)

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.ecstasydata.org

The pill, i had tried before and by experience it was 200 mg.
So, my wife was not total virgin, she had one E experience back in 2005 where she took half untested pill and she had a good time, not life changing experience or typical first time MDMA experience.
The Rolls Royce pill she had been eating during the night by 1/3 every couple of hours, as i though that 100mg at once might be too much for her, she is very skinny and light.
The overall experience for her was mongy, she spent the night staying in one place, not dancing at all, just chit-chated with her friend who was drinking votka.
Yes, the dose migh have been too low, but 60-70 mg of good magic stuff would def. made her rolling.

Did you buy the pill in Basel Switzerland in November 2017? Otherwise that testing result is worthless for judging the quantity of MDMA in your pill. People talking about pills just adds complexity and confusion to the whole thread because the quantity of MDMA in them is always unknown (unless you buy in bulk and submit multiple pills from the same batch to a testing centre).

 

[indigoaura]

I really wish we could have a sub-forum and divide this conversation up into multiple sub-topics. That way, specific chemistry conversations could continue in their own threads, and anecdotal reports could be relayed in their own threads etc. I feel like important information gets lost in here and has to be re-shared repeatedly. Also, new contributors come in without reading the full thread (which I understand, since it is 236 pages), but it causes confusion as well.

 

[user666]

Also, new contributors come in without reading the full thread (which I understand, since it is 236 pages), but it causes confusion as well.

...and annoyance.

 

[AutoTripper]

I really wish we could have a sub-forum and divide this conversation up into multiple sub-topics. That way, specific chemistry conversations could continue in their own threads, and anecdotal reports could be relayed in their own threads etc. I feel like important information gets lost in here and has to be re-shared repeatedly. Also, new contributors come in without reading the full thread (which I understand, since it is 236 pages), but it causes confusion as well.

Hello. I am sorry, Im more gulty than any other in this regard.

Thats a great idea. I can't help share my mystical past expereinces. But sure this is serious enquiry and not the best place.

I'm too poorly atm and not tech orcommon sense savvy, but a seperate thread for random, anecdotal reports sounds good. Maybe already exists??

At the same time though...to a point, these specific, exact experiences are relevant to the topic. Subjectivity HAS to come into this. Not purely science.

Not meaning to argue against at all. A line must be drawn. This gread has diverted I feel since origin to be much more focused on chemistry fact and science. I forget this.

Btw I do seriously respect what all of you are trying to establish here and I'm just as curious and fascinated by it all so I really am sorry for standing in the way at times.

Keep at it guys/girls.

 

[indigoaura]

Hello. I am sorry, Im more gulty than any other in this regard.

Thats a great idea. I can't help share my mystical past expereinces. But sure this is serious enquiry and not the best place.

I'm too poorly atm and not tech orcommon sense savvy, but a seperate thread for random, anecdotal reports sounds good. Maybe already exists??

At the same time though...to a point, these specific, exact experiences are relevant to the topic. Subjectivity HAS to come into this. Not purely science.

Not meaning to argue against at all. A line must be drawn. This gread has diverted I feel since origin to be much more focused on chemistry fact and science. I forget this.

Btw I do seriously respect what all of you are trying to establish here and I'm just as curious and fascinated by it all so I really am sorry for standing in the way at times.

Keep at it guys/girls.

I always appreciate your Kerouac style inspired anecdotes, @AutoTripper! What can really drown this thread are back and forth posts between a few people arguing over something trivial or going off topic. Then, before you know it, there are 3 new pages of posts and the thread has totally lost focus. I just wish there was a better way to organize it. It is an unweildy beast. If we had a sub-forum, then it could be broken up by theories, anecdotes, chemistry topics like TLC plates/column chromatography etc.

 

[indigoaura]

Latest version:

Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”

• We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab (such as Energy Control or Drugs Data), tested with some form of GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
• “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
• “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
• Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
• Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
• No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
• Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
• Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.

	Traditional (magic) MDMA	Sub-par (meh) MDMA
Mydriasis (eye dilation)	Yes	No
Enhanced tactile senses	Yes	No
Enhanced auditory senses	Yes	No
Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music	Yes	No
Feelings of euphoria	Yes	No
Feelings of empathy	Yes	No
Pro-social behaviors	Yes	No
Energy	Yes	No
Feeling sleepy	No	Yes
Active desire to disengage from social interaction.	No	Yes
Enhanced sex/making out	Yes	No
Feelings of love	Yes	No
Desire to be still	No	Yes
Jaw movement	Yes	Yes
Profuse Sweating/Feeling Hot	Yes	No
Feeling cold in warm environments	No	Yes
Duration	4-6 hours	1-3 hours
Comedown	Typically, gradual	Typically, abrupt

 

[psy997]

1) I'm going to actually give feedback this time, indigo. Sorry about not doing it before.

2) I'm wondering if a MediaWiki instance would serve our purposes since chat pages are available there, we could also aggregate information on main wiki pages, and I could probably run it on a server I have access to, as well.