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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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@vecktor hi dude. So just to be absolutely clear on pne thing- are you saying (or not, but it is the case anyway), that with regard to these troublesome, clingy binders, even when the pill is smashed down to fine powder- this will make no difference, and the binder will still be holding on to the MDMA?

I would really hope not, I mean surely these are just ingrdients pressed together by force right?
Not chemically bonded?
 
@vecktor hi dude. So just to be absolutely clear on pne thing- are you saying (or not, but it is the case anyway), that with regard to these troublesome, clingy binders, even when the pill is smashed down to fine powder- this will make no difference, and the binder will still be holding on to the MDMA?

I would really hope not, I mean surely these are just ingrdients pressed together by force right?
Not chemically bonded?

I don't know for certain, some PVP povidones can bind to organic molecules even in water, if the binder has been added as a solution or a slurry before pressing, then even the ground up pills will still be bonded just as smaller particles.
A lot of the current crop of pills are physically very hard probably with no disintegrants in the formulation and are bulked with insoluble excipients so release is going to be problematic. I suspect that the newer chinese pill presses are not as high pressure as the old ones so they need stronger binders to make a decent tablet but that is complete speculation.
As far as I know this hasn't been published if it has been studied.

In the pharmaceutical industry generic tablet formulation has been very troublesome over the years, even practically the same formulation has different release properties. The classic example is Phenytoin for epilepsy where some of the generics had massively different bioavailability and release properties, switching from isoluble Calcium Sulfate to soluble lactose caused huge increase in bioavailability and toxicity. 20% bioavailability variation between generics is common
 
I don't know for certain, some PVP povidones can bind to organic molecules even in water, if the binder has been added as a solution or a slurry before pressing, then even the ground up pills will still be bonded just as smaller particles.
A lot of the current crop of pills are physically very hard probably with no disintegrants in the formulation and are bulked with insoluble excipients so release is going to be problematic. I suspect that the newer chinese pill presses are not as high pressure as the old ones so they need stronger binders to make a decent tablet but that is complete speculation.
As far as I know this hasn't been published if it has been studied.

In the pharmaceutical industry generic tablet formulation has been very troublesome over the years, even practically the same formulation has different release properties. The classic example is Phenytoin for epilepsy where some of the generics had massively different bioavailability and release properties, switching from isoluble Calcium Sulfate to soluble lactose caused huge increase in bioavailability and toxicity. 20% bioavailability variation between generics is common
Thanks very much for your reply and expansion. Which makes sense. I have definitely never been keen on the idea of mega hard, compact, pretty, laminated pills.

The 2 Bowser's I have to try, I was very pleased to see are extremely crumbly, very well pressed and formed, which is impressive considering they are like the White Cliffs of Dover lol. Chuck a little weather their way and they crumble like dust.

They appear visibly to be crystals simply pressed with something to keep the shape enough.
However, the very first ever legendary Mitzubishi pills, I can never recall if it was late 97 or early 98. I think 98 (?). They were really hard, difficult to snap, no disintegration.
Big pills too. As strong and powerful and clean and transcendental as any single pill I ever took.
Fast, normal come up too. The next batch, 3 weeks later, same guy, same Rave, different location- they were more crumbly and nowhere near as amazing. Just decent pills.
I did take 2 big yellow Mitzubishis at the 1999 4 day Exodus festival. The guy who I got it from, much older than me, old Skool with real character- "Bov" his name was.

He adamantly swore blind to me that these yellow Mitsubishis were the very best pills at this entire Festival. Just the way he was and told me this I genuinely believed him at the time and didn't hesitate to try one. Sure enough it was an outright incredible ecstasy pill. Easily the best I tried that that festival that year and the whole place was flooded with stuff that would make people's dreams these days by the sounds of it. Just tons of amazing E's everywhere. You didnt need to walk more than 10 feet to score multiple presses, all high quality.

And these yellow Mitzis we're just like the very original ones and extremely hard and big.

I took lots of both crumbly, and hard pressed Mitzis over following years. Like other brands too, but Mitzis in particular would commonly be both- hard, smooth ones, and crumblies.
But I don't recall having made any firm associations regarding quality, potency etc, hard vs soft.

Maybe the harder ones had a slower/delayed come up, but not enough for me to have any memory of experiencing or discussing it.

So that's my only point which isn't really a point- just how these different press styles have been around. But I havent seen the modern hard pills. And obviously even if you cannot tell the difference between an old school and modern day hard pressed MDMA pill, we have no idea what ingredients are used and their properties.
 
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@vecktor Let me clarify a few things...

My friend was not trying to recrystallize the product for the purpose of removing impurities. He saw what it looked like and commented that he thought water/liquid had been used in the crystallization process originally to make the crystals look so large. He suggested heating it on a hot plate to remove the water and see what was left, but when he attempted to crush it, it would not crush at all and was very hard. So, he added a few drops of water to facilitate crushing it. The sole purpose of doing this was to compare weight before and after to see if there was liquid in the product originally. This is how he explained it to me. I do not know enough about chemistry to know whether his hypothesis was reasonable or not, admittedly. But, the point was not to purify or clean it, just to see if water had been used to make the crystals.

Your comments on the binders are relevant and interesting. I have noticed a difference simply from gelatin vs. cellulose capsules, so I do not doubt that the binding agents in the pills could impact how/where/when the pills dissolve which could significantly alter the roll. Great link. Thanks for posting it. I have not been getting pressed pills, I have been getting powder/crystals. Do you think these same concepts apply there?

What would happen if I plugged? How would that affect the product absorption?

But... we're not "bleating" here. And, your dismissive final comments about #nostaligia and #setting are long ago disputed and addressed in the past 90 pages. New/virgin users who have been underwhelmed by MehDMA do not have nostalgia, and the set/settings experimented with have been wide and varied. Also, old pills were not always cut with stimulants. I sent my old pills in to the lab, and there was not speed in them. They tested as MDMA, just like the molly I am sending in now tests as MDMA, but the profile and effects are wildly different. This is confirmed by multiple people besides me. The question is, why?
 
@AutoTripper Thinking back, I have to agree with you. I had soft, crumbly pills that were good. I had firm, smooth pills that were good. I don't recall ever noticing that one type was better than the other at that time (2000-2005).
 
@AutoTripper Thinking back, I have to agree with you. I had soft, crumbly pills that were good. I had firm, smooth pills that were good. I don't recall ever noticing that one type was better than the other at that time (2000-2005).

The crux of the point I was trying to make is that modern pills seem to use strong binders to make decent physical pills.
I don't know this for certain but I suspect that the proliferation of cheaper smaller Chinese presses is soemthing to do with it.

In the 90s commercial pills were usually pressed with a decent pharma press, on smaller scale something like a Manesty F series single punch which has a high punch pressure easily up to 4 tons with pre compresion and on larger scale a mutliple turret press. With a decent press physically good pills can be made with limited binder and dispersable bulking agents like lactose. Decent Manesty and Stoke presses are very rare today, the presses that are still around are often 30 plus years old and worn out.

To make it more complicated there was a lot of repressing going on, take for example the mitsubishi pressing, the dies for the Mitsubishi pill were very easy to get in the late 90s and early 2000s so there were multiple pressings in mutliple locations mostly in the Brabant region but also in Liverpool UK and Southern Ireland, some were virgin presses from powder and filler, some were represses of ground pills, in the EU often with added amphetamine and other ingredients, adding amphetamine sulphate tended to cause the tablets to become damp or crumbly. Some Mitsubishis were analysed as MDA too.
Today you can buy tooling for any pill design online so the press design means nothing.

There are a lot of new and cheap Chinese presses around today, in general these are capable of reliably generating much lower pressures and as they wear the pressure the can generate gets worse and worse which means stronger binders are needed to hold the pill together and fill the voids.

Crystal can and is cut. I am not going to publically say how I think it is done, other than to say it can be done in a way that doesn't show up on GCMS or LCMS. Nobody seems to check the salt form of MDMA, it is sort of assumed it is MDMA hydrochloride but is it???

I am not the person with specific expertise on this, you need to contact John Ramsay at St Georges, University of London.
 
My position is that:
Synthesis routes have changed and are producing high purity MDMA without other active compounds. I believe that the changes being observed in the empirical MDMA experience are a result of changes in people's brains as a result of age and MDMA use, not changes in the MDMA molecule (which appears to have been MDMA all along). This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember, with older users always saying that the MDMA when they first started was better than [15 years later], regardless of when they started using.

I don't rule out the idea that there might be some active impurity but there is no evidence for that in analyses and therefore I don't consider it to hold weight. Analysis methods are getting better and better and there is an ever vanishing chance that some highly potent molecule (as it would need to be, when confirmed MDMA content is around 90%).

One thing that I think could be playing a role is the relatively low prevalence of crystal until 2011, and the fast releasing nature of modern pills. Slow-release of a drug into the bloodstream tends to result in a smoother experience with less peaks and troughs. Troughs cause users to want to re-dose prematurely as they feel dissatisfied with their headspace and think they have undershot. Taking more then causes more of the side effects and tolerance increases associated with heavy use and that accelerates onset of the issues seen here.

Have you all seen this paper?


It's not a perfect paper, with some slim sample sizes for some years and personally I would have excised all pills with under 20mg MDMA from the calculation of averages but it does show an interesting change in pills towards being more fast-dissolving as well as stronger.

It's worth noting that these issues can be sidestepped by slightly increasing (10-20% to compensate for lower peak levels), then staggering one's dose (split into 3-4 portions and take over 30-60 minutes).

I don't know what minor excipients are being used in pills but as far as I'm aware, microcrystalline cellulose is really the big one for the main excipient.
 
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Idk if this was already mentioned, but the theory of varying isomers due to different synthesis routes is bullshit. Both safrole and the chemical used nowadays aren't precursors to MDMA, but to methylenedioxypenylacetone, aka. MDP2P. In both cases the synthesized MDP2P has to be distilled and is therefore the same precursor. Then it's always the same reaction: reductive amination. This can be done in multiple ways, but no matter which one you choose, the product is always an exact 50/50 racemic mixture.
 
I don't know what minor excipients are being used in pills but as far as I'm aware, microcrystalline cellulose is really the big one for the main excipient.
My position is that:
Synthesis routes have changed and are producing high purity MDMA without other active compounds. I believe that the changes being observed in the empirical MDMA experience are a result of changes in people's brains as a result of age and MDMA use, not changes in the MDMA molecule (which appears to have been MDMA all along). This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember, with older users always saying that the MDMA when they first started was better than [15 years later], regardless of when they started using.

I don't rule out the idea that there might be some active impurity but there is no evidence for that in analyses and therefore I don't consider it to hold weight. Analysis methods are getting better and better and there is an ever vanishing chance that some highly potent molecule (as it would need to be, when confirmed MDMA content is around 90%).

One thing that I think could be playing a role is the relatively low prevalence of crystal until 2011, and the fast releasing nature of modern pills. Slow-release of a drug into the bloodstream tends to result in a smoother experience with less peaks and troughs. Troughs cause users to want to re-dose prematurely as they feel dissatisfied with their headspace and think they have undershot. Taking more then causes more of the side effects and tolerance increases associated with heavy use and that accelerates onset of the issues seen here.

Have you all seen this paper?


It's not a perfect paper, with some slim sample sizes for some years and personally I would have excised all pills with under 20mg MDMA from the calculation of averages but it does show an interesting change in pills towards being more fast-dissolving as well as stronger.

It's worth noting that these issues can be sidestepped by slightly increasing (10-20% to compensate for lower peak levels), then staggering one's dose (split into 3-4 portions and take over 30-60 minutes).

I don't know what minor excipients are being used in pills but as far as I'm aware, microcrystalline cellulose is really the big one for the main excipient.

The paper is interesting but I don't buy the dissolution data at all, the classification into fast, intermediate and slow is classic post hoc data mining, if you look at the magnitude of the variance it makes drawing any conclusion meaningless and the authors know it.

Classically MDMA.HCl 100-120mg was dissolved in water and drunk, so that is about as immediate release as possible and hit in 40 minutes, followed sometimes by 40-50mg at the 1.5 to 2hr point, but the supplement extended duration not level of intoxication.

Bombing ground crystal is the same, larger crystals will be slightly slower to dissolve, but overall we should see more pronounced effects relative to pressed pils, higher peak blood levels higher peak brain levels for a shorter time for the same dose. But the doses of crystal are way higher than expected, so the crystal is not pure and it is being cut with something that is very common and doesn't show up on LCMS or GCMS.

The form of pills changed radically about a decade ago with unusual shaped and highly detailed pills appearing frequently, these have a fine structure and detail. These need a strong binding excipient of some sort, the bulking exipient can be anything, lactose mannitol cellulose calcium sulfate or whatever but the formulation needs something to hold the bulking excipient and the active together, strong enough to get it to release from the tooling without losing the detail, the current fancy pills are not coated with a release agent either unless someone is de-dusting them. Mostly the current euro pills seem to be pressed from 25 to 50% MDMA.HCl and the rest is bulking agent colouring and binder. There is clearly a trick to these clever presses, I don't know anybody involved in clandestine pill pressing with the knowlege to answer that. There are some issues with the current pills and it isn't being addressed, pills with 200mg plus doses of MDMA HCl equivalent are just excessive so why is it being done?

Maybe the classic ecstasy experience of old is not a pure MDMA experience. I cannot say for certain, but I can say, sample size of one, that known dose pure MDMA is not the experience people refer to as good energetic ecstasy of rave lore. Nick Saunders said almost 25 years ago that MDMA itself wasn't ecstasy, I tend to agree.

I am sure that rate of dissolution and availability really does matter not just to the intensity of the experience but the quality of the experience. This is because the two enantiomers are excreted at different speeds and have different plasma half lives. R MDMA is a very different drug to S MDMA, so starting with racemic 50 50 mixture rapid absorbtion will give an equal S enantiomer and R enantiomer ratio but only for a short time, The S enantiomer levels will fall off quickly and give R enantiomer effects for a longer time. Slower absorbtion will give a different effect because the delayed absorbed material will increase the S enantiomer to R enantiomer ratio for a longer time but never to the initial ratio at time zero, this kind of fits with supplementing at 1hr 30 with half the original dose, this will increase the S to R ratio in favor of S which extends the duration a couple of hours but not really the intensity at the cost of more annoying side effects.
The ultimate MDMA experience might be a mixture of 42.42 % R and 57.58 % S

I doubt anybody here will have an answer but microcrystalline cellulose is chiral and insoluble in water, does microcellulose absorb one enantiomer of MDMA in solution more readily than the other?

I think there may be something to this. but the answer is not in this thread so far
So far the more I look the more questions appear and it doesn't fall together nicely
 
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You can all discuss chemistry until you're blue in the face afaic. The general consensus of opinion is that a lot of the MDMA available today does not give the same subjective experience as it once did. However, there are exceptions; and it's these exceptions that blow the whole tolerance, rose tinted specs, set and setting argument out of the water. We all know when we get good shit, the fact of the matter is that the good shit seems to be increasingly rare for many of us.
 
@vecktor Thank you for the suggestion to contact John Ramsey. I absolutely will. I'm going to look for contact info and will reach out to him. Maybe he can shed some additional light on what we are noticing.

You mentioned having a theory on what the crystal is cut with, and how it will not show up with GCMS analysis. If you are willing to PM me, please do so. Could I clean the crystal of this additive by using acetone or another washing method?

@Transform F.U.B.A.R. just said it, but I am going to say it again here for emphasis. Your counterarguments are simply incorrect. Everyone keeps wanting to bring up nostalgia and setting, but those explanations DO NOT explain this situation.

Our hypothesis: Something is not right with SOME of today's MDMA.

Your counterargument: It is just nostalgia or tolerance.

This counterargument is invalid because NEW USERS are experiencing the same subpar effects, and because old users can still experience "magic" with different batches of MDMA. @Chonciceptor demonstrated this with his anecdote of his wife's reaction to two different supplies of MDMA (she was a brand new user). Her experience matched his observations as an experienced user.

Your counterargument: Set and setting.
This counterargument is invalid because experiments have been performed in many settings, and because the same setting will product great effects with a different batch of MDMA. @Hilopsilo demonstrated this beautifully with his story of the same set of people trying two different batches of MDMA at a festival with everyone reporting the same subpar effects from one batch and magic effects from another batch and yet BOTH batches showed MDMA as the lab result.

Your Counterargument: Old pills had speed in them.
I cannot speak for everyone, but in my case specifically this is false. I sent my pills in to a lab for GCMS analysis and they tested as MDMA. So, either those old pills had some magic undetectable ingredient/issue/additive or the new pills do. But, either way, GCMS says MDMA about two completely different effect profiles.

You can all discuss chemistry until you're blue in the face afaic. The general consensus of opinion is that a lot of the MDMA available today does not give the same subjective experience as it once did. However, there are exceptions; and it's these exceptions that blow the whole tolerance, rose tinted specs, set and setting argument out of the water. We all know when we get good shit, the fact of the matter is that the good shit seems to be increasingly rare for many of us.

?

I think that discussing additives, binding agents, dissolving rate etc. is all relevant. Maybe one of these issues is what is at play. Interesting to think that an additive could be absorbing an enantiomer @vecktor. That certainly complicates the whole conversation and is interesting to consider.

I think this topic is not going to be believed by a lot of people until they have experienced it
 
Thank you again for bringing John Ramsey into this conversation. Researching him allowed me to find TICTAC. I think they may be precisely the organization we need. They specialize in the study of newly emerging psychoactive substances that are not yet identifiable by traditional harm-reduction testing. I have already emailed them and I really hope they reply. At the very least, I hope they will agree to accept our samples for testing.

If we could have a central location to all send our samples to (a location that performs a variety of ADVANCED tests including GCMS AND Raman), that would be a huge step forward for this conversation. We can talk in all kinds of circles but what we need is better and more data.


 
@vecktor Thank you for the suggestion to contact John Ramsey. I absolutely will. I'm going to look for contact info and will reach out to him. Maybe he can shed some additional light on what we are noticing.

You mentioned having a theory on what the crystal is cut with, and how it will not show up with GCMS analysis. If you are willing to PM me, please do so. Could I clean the crystal of this additive by using acetone or another washing method?

@Transform F.U.B.A.R. just said it, but I am going to say it again here for emphasis. Your counterarguments are simply incorrect. Everyone keeps wanting to bring up nostalgia and setting, but those explanations DO NOT explain this situation.

Our hypothesis: Something is not right with SOME of today's MDMA.

Your counterargument: It is just nostalgia or tolerance.

This counterargument is invalid because NEW USERS are experiencing the same subpar effects, and because old users can still experience "magic" with different batches of MDMA. @Chonciceptor demonstrated this with his anecdote of his wife's reaction to two different supplies of MDMA (she was a brand new user). Her experience matched his observations as an experienced user.

Your counterargument: Set and setting.
This counterargument is invalid because experiments have been performed in many settings, and because the same setting will product great effects with a different batch of MDMA. @Hilopsilo demonstrated this beautifully with his story of the same set of people trying two different batches of MDMA at a festival with everyone reporting the same subpar effects from one batch and magic effects from another batch and yet BOTH batches showed MDMA as the lab result.

Your Counterargument: Old pills had speed in them.
I cannot speak for everyone, but in my case specifically this is false. I sent my pills in to a lab for GCMS analysis and they tested as MDMA. So, either those old pills had some magic undetectable ingredient/issue/additive or the new pills do. But, either way, GCMS says MDMA about two completely different effect profiles.



?

I think that discussing additives, binding agents, dissolving rate etc. is all relevant. Maybe one of these issues is what is at play. Interesting to think that an additive could be absorbing an enantiomer @vecktor. That certainly complicates the whole conversation and is interesting to consider.

I think this topic is not going to be believed by a lot of people until they have experienced it

Indigo nails all points here. To clarify and strengthen her point here. I myself have never abused mdma........ EVER. Prior to ever taking it i spent months researching harm reduction and really getting a true understanding of what this was and how to be safe with it. After that, i always spaced my rolls according to the *1 month minimum, 3 months optimum* wait times between doses. Nowadays, i dont roll for 6+ months at a time, even going over a year at times. My last true roll that felt like the mdma we are all seeking here, was actually in 2015. This means that for the 4 years all the tested and pure mdma/pills ive gotten, hasnt quite launched you into that headspace. Just going somewhere and stops. Various sources, various batches, all tested with a test kit with amazing reviews.

Last time i took something was sept last year, ill be dropping some stuff in the coming month(s) potentially. This gives me roughly an 8+ month wait time between my last roll. That is PLENTY of time away from this drug to have it work without a glaring variable.

Anyone wanna still say its not the mdma? I eat well, im very healthy, i love harm reduction.

I joined this site in 2011, and have been providing true harm reduction tips since that time while learning myself. As someone who has NEVER abused mdma and treated it with the utmost respect, i highly doubt tolerance/set&setting/ or speed has anything to do with it. My gear has always been tested as well, and its mdma only 99% of the time. One time was a caffeine mdma combo and that was nice.
 
It makes sense that perhaps the variation of different precursors has slightly altered/different feels when taken. I dont know, I'm not an expert but isnt one precursor natural sassafras root bark, and another one that is used is safrole? I understand safrole is what is in sassafras, but maybe they use a safrole analogue or a synthetic of some sort to synthesize MDMA. Maybe that can be responsible for why some of us think it has adifferent feel then MDMA that was synthesized from straight sass, or some other precursor I have not mentioned. I read in a book that you can synthesize MMDA? from nutmeg, and then can synthesize the MMDA into MDMA. I dont know this theory just crossed my mind if that makes any sense.
 
Can't remember if this has been discussed about on the thread but has anyone else noticed that the MehDMA tastes often quite blend?

Back in the day even a tiny bit tasted revolting and allmost made me throw up every time when I chewed a pill or took some crystal.
The taste is similar nowadays but nowhere near as intense as it used to be.

Last decent MDMA ecperience for me was back in 2014.
Had yellow 1UP mushroom cutout which had the horrible taste.
After that everything has been pretty much a disappointment.

I guess bulking agent could explain the lack of taste but the lack of euphoria and feeling sick for a few days after?

Anyway good thread guys and thanks for the effort to solve the mystery!
 
Can't remember if this has been discussed about on the thread but has anyone else noticed that the MehDMA tastes often quite blend?

Back in the day even a tiny bit tasted revolting and allmost made me throw up every time when I chewed a pill or took some crystal.
The taste is similar nowadays but nowhere near as intense as it used to be.

Last decent MDMA ecperience for me was back in 2014.
Had yellow 1UP mushroom cutout which had the horrible taste.
After that everything has been pretty much a disappointment.

I guess bulking agent could explain the lack of taste but the lack of euphoria and feeling sick for a few days after?

Anyway good thread guys and thanks for the effort to solve the mystery!

Thanks for popping in! As you can see, we have been throwing around questions about this for some time now. I completely agree with your notes here. Todays pure mdma lacks taste and smell. You are right that its still there, but highly diminished from previous pills or powders. I used to open a bag and get smacked in the face with a licorice smell. Now you can barely smell it at all, even with nose in bag!!
 
Trust me, they're completely different. My proof is simply these two samples I have right here in front of me. I have my white crystalline powder and red Supreme tabs. The red Supremes were ecstasydata lab tested as pure MDMA and were sent in by, how do I say this, someone that I know. I myself have done both and can tell you that to even try and compare the two would be insulting to the powder. Plain and simple, the red Supremes are unenjoyable and the white powder is nothing short of heavenly.

Example # 2. My neighbor, who's never done ecstasy in her life, was talked into doing the red Supremes by me when I was out of the powder. Afterwards, she said she would never do ecstasy again. She said it was nothing like I described it and it showed. She wasn't loved up, she was very introverted, she spent most of the night either puking or laying on the sofa. The next day she said she felt cracked out.

After a couple months, I was able to talk her into trying the powder with me. We were in the same exact setting as the time before. My place. This time she was in love, she was telling me things she'd never told anyone before, she couldn't stop rubbing on me, she must have told me she loved me 50 times, she said if the whole world was on this there would be no wars, we made love all night and the next day we went out to breakfast and came back home and continued making love.

They are not the same. I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot. People keep talking about setting etc. That's the bullshit. If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.

Le Junk

P.S. The difference is in the isomers.

Going back to page 1 to re-read some of this thread. I observe the same as this post here, and can even give a report on a "c|p" pill ive done as well. I tried a Green starbucks CP (checkpoint i believe?) pill produced "example 2" type feelings from this post.
 
This thread is extraordinary for almost zero signal to noise ratio and it reminds me of the circular LSD purity arguments.
so I'll start with what I know.

3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA are distinguishable by GC-MS, the GC bit does the separating. A DB5 or HP5 MS column which is pretty standard separates the two with the 2,3 isomer eluting first. The EI spectra of the fragments is not identical either.
https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf;sequence=1 page 56
This is my experience also with ortho para isomers. Labs identify by retention time AND spectra.

2,3 MDMA would require a 2,3-methylenedioxy precursor. These are commercially available but more expensive than the 3,4-methylenedioxy compounds, if 2,3 methylenedioxy MDMA was around then it is substitution by the chinese manufacturers of the precursors but most of the manufacturers also make the cheaper 3,4 methylenedioxy compounds, so it is very unlikely that 2,3 methylenedioxy is widespread.

Since 2009 2010 most PMK has been made from PMK glycidate and is plain old PMK, just the same as that made from safrole. PMK itself smells similar to but lighter than safrole. People associate the safrole smell with good MDMA experiences and smell is great at evoking memories (of good pills) and contributing to set and setting. If someone was to spray lavender scent and then electrocute you eventually you would subconsciously associate lavender and being shocked, to the point where if you smelled lavender you would become stressed.

PMK glycidate which is itself made from piperonal will disappear in the next few years as the international restrictions on it bite. It will be inevitably replaced by something else (my guess would be one of the really obvious 4 carbon pre precursors) over time but there are clearly large stocks of PMK glycidate in producer areas already. There is not a one step reaction from pmk glycidate to MDMA but there are ways to do it in one pot, how common this is who knows, the current forensic impurity profile fits with reductive amination of PMK with the PMK being isolated. There is another theoretical route to MDMA from PMK glycidate which does not need conversion to PMK, there is no evidence in the forensic literature this route is being used.
PMK glycidate is chiral but the commercial product is a racemic mixture and in any case the PMK it makes is not chiral.

MDMA made by reductive amination of PMK with nitromethane(as an in situ methylamine source) or methylamine is racemic. MDMA made by reduction with a chiral amine is chiral, chiral amines like chiral N-alphadimethylbenzylamine would give chiral N-alphamethylbenzyl MDMA which on deprotection would give chiral MDMA. Nobody is going to do this as chiral alphamethylbenzylamine is expensive and the chiral precusor is used up. There are ways to make chiral amines using chiral catalysts but this is way out of the league of clandestine MDMA cooks.

Significant mercury in MDMA is pretty much a myth
Raman spectroscopy cannot detect parts per million concentration of mercury whether it is methyl mercury halide or dimethyl mercury.
ICP-MS or ICP-OES can detect down to parts per trillion of mercury but I am not aware whether anybody has done this on clandestine MDMA.
Mercury in the form of mercury salts are used to amalgamate aluminium in the reductive amination of PMK this is generally a small scale route. the mercury ends up absorbed onto the aluminium and in the aluminium oxide hydroxide residues and it is in the form of elemental mercury, it is not converted into methyl mercury or dimethyl mercury. Amalgamated zinc has been used occasionally in pharmaceutical manufacture and the levels of mercury carried into the product are negligible.
the grey and brown colouration of impure MDMA means nothing it could be metal oxides, carbon or tar.
There is not commonly cyanide in cocaine either.

t-BOC MDMA and MDPH
There is no conceivable chemistry that can generate MDPH (methylenedioxyphentermine) from BOC MDMA, even the most inept clandestine operator can heat BOC MDMA with hydrochloric acid.
t-BOC MDMA itself is unlikely because it would need PMK or isosafrole to make it.
If there is MDPH methylenedioxyphentermine in circulation it is deliberate but I am highly skeptical quality of the source of the supposed data.

Things that are interesting but unexplained significance.

Pills aren't what they used to be.
in mid to late 2000s the Brabant Dutch manufacturers came up with a pill binder that is really good at binding pills making rock hard lumps but is not as good at allowing the pills to dissolve and disperse. I think it is polyvinylpyrrolidone co-polymer and replaced the earlier gum binders. This seems to be everywhere now. It has a couple of problems, it can bind stuff in solution further reducing availability and it also causes allergies in some people.

Crystals
There also appears to be some kind of bulking agent that can be crystallized with MDMA to make nice crystals which look pretty but are not pure MDMA.HCl I have a good idea what it is but this shouldn't be public information.

Nostalgia will continue to be a big thing in the future and you can't swim in the same river twice meaning that people change much more than the drug does and the river flows on.
MDMA in general now back to being as good as it ever has been, MDMA contents of pills are pretty high up to 100mg which is much higher than the 90s the precursors are plentiful and have been since 2010, perhaps the drugs haven't changed, the users have and the world we live in has.

Pharmaceutical (GMP) MDMA as MAPS have was originally made by the Nichols group, by the reductive amination of PMK just like all the clandestine processes. The only real difference is they distilled the MDMA in the final step it is not complicated.

This was an awesome post, good read.

I have the knowledge to do MDMA synthesis but not comfortable with my environment currently but will do so eventually and hope to be able to identify the route to an optimal product.
 
Not sure if this applies to others here but does anyone have a place that they have acquired “excellent” MDMA by old school standards? Preferably on the DN. If so and someone could pass me the vendor info, I have access to a plethora of lab equipment I could use to run GC, IR/NMR spectra, and all that stuff. Would be interested to compare to some of the stuff that I have and considered to be untouchable in terms of quality.
 
Every thing I’ve gotten in the past 10 years has been bs compared to the 98 99 2000 were my favorite with this ..everything I’ve had since has been speedy bs little uphoria compared to what I got in the 00’s
 
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