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[DPT Subthread] Physical properties: Stability, Solubility, Storage, Conversion

eternalcrux

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DPT Subthread: Physical Properties: Stability, Solubility, Storage, Conversion

This is the sub-thread of the Big and Dandy DPT thread meant for discussion of the chemical and physical properties
of N,N-DPT. Under this fall the following aspects, among others:
  • Stability of the different forms of DPT
  • The proper way to store DPT
  • In what liquids DPT can be dissolved
  • Conversion of the freebase to saltform or other way around
For conversion calculation, you can use Nuke's nifty Tryptamine Conversion Calculation thread

[BACK TO THE DPT MAIN THREAD]



[original post:]

A friend is interested in aquiring a gram of dpt freebase, but has a few questions. Since i wasn't sure of the awnseres, I told him i'd post here. On erowid, when looking under dosages for dpt freebase, it is listed as 'dpt freebase oil'. Now, would this mean that all dpt freebase would come in an oil? I realize the awnsere may be complicated, and full of chem. vocab, but could anyone explain to me WHY the freebase is in an oil?

Or would it come 'rocked up' like cocaine freebase?

also, assuming the dpt freebase is an oil, how would one measure out dosages? Surely you cannot put oil on a scale, expect to get it all (or any) off again, and then use?

Finially, what would be the most effective way to smoke the freebase? I'm assuming a 'smoking bed' of either ash, marijuana, parsley, etc would be required? Would a torch lighter be required or would a normal BIC work? Would a special smoking apparatus be requried? Would a normal marijuana vaporizer work?

Thanks in advance,
EC
 
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leungkachong

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Simply put, the freebase is an oil because the intermolecular forces are not strong enough (and organized enough) to form any type of crystal. The hydrochloride (and other salts) have strong enough ion-dipole intermolecular forces to form a solid (hell, it's considered ionic, and an ionic liquid is an EXTREME rarity).

And as for measuring, the easiest method would be to put (part of) the smoking device on the scale, copy down the weight, add your oil, and subtract the original weight from the new one (or if you have a tare function on your scale, it'll do it for ya)

I would say, if you are short of supplies, you should make an "improvised" vaporizing device. I use the glass "bowl" of a scented oil vaporizer to hold the oil, and a large, glass turkey baster, with a flame held far enough away that the vaporization takes around half a minute (high temp such as the torch lighter will destroy much of this sensitive tryptamine :p)

Attempted illustration of my "vaporizer" (similar to a test-tube one):
Code:
            / \   - Suck when all oil is vaporized
           /   \
           |   |
           |   |
           |   |
           |   |  - Large turkey baster with suction part removed
           |   |
           |   |
     \     |   |    /
      \    |   |   /   - Glass "bowl" part of the essential oil vaporizer
       \__ | _ |__/
IGNORE THE DOTS, they are just to keep the formatting from screwing up! I won't even going to TRY to animate a lil' flame.

Hope this helps
 
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shroomshiner

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I used to enjoy that decades ago but haven't seen any since then

mod's note: i made a small edit to this post; please PM me if you need an explanation. - iso
 
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[email protected]

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if ur gonna smoke the shit, use a lightbulb... cut off where u screw it on at, then stick in a screw driver and break out the inside so its nice, then wash it out, insert the oil put two straws in, one near the bottom(where the air comes in), and the other near the top(which u inhale from), then tape or whatever to keep it sealed, then simply heat up the bulb........
 

VictorBorge

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Glad someone posted about this, I was always curious myself. Sounds about like what I had imagined.

All the suppliers of DPT freebase I've seen list its quantities in milliliters, rather than milligrams, so I'm sure it comes as the oil form.

When I get around to obtaining something approximating a "real" DMT pipe (no ghetto lightbulb for me, I want something cool that will last), I look forward to trying this material, and other smokeables (5-MEO-DMT especially). For now though I'm an oral-only kinda guy. Kinda like Monica Lewinsky.... =D
 

Morninggloryseed

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DPT freebase should be crystals. DPT freebase oil is not as clean. Very clean DPT freebase will form crystals. I'm looking at some now.
 

leungkachong

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At least in my experience, I was provided by a friend with a quantity of what was claimed to be "DPT HCl" to freebase for him. I went through a standard procedure, basifying with NaOH, and extracting 3 times with DCM. All products on my side WERE lab grade, and if I can't perform a simple basification and extraction I believe there should be a bullet in my head :p. I had therefore assumed the intermolecular forces were simply too weak as a result. Therefore, I would (once again) place into questionability the purity of product from some chemical suppliers.
 

Morninggloryseed

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Blowmonkey said:
It's not really an oil, more of a "waxy" substance, it's not that hard to handle too.
An easy way to handle DPT, DMT, and other waxy freebases is to keep them in the fridge. If you work quickly enough, the stuff will stay hard. DPT freebase starts to "melt" in your hands if you handle it. DMT freebase must have a higher MP as it seems to stay more in waxy/crystal form regardless of temperature.
 

Morninggloryseed

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According to Shulgin, DMT has many MPs. He listed perhaps a dozen different ones in TIHKAL from various sources. He thinks atmospheric conditions, as well as they way the DMT is made can affect the MP.
 

thinctwo

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at given temperature, pressure, and atmospheric conditions, any pure substance has only one melting point (more accurately, one range of MP's). the multiple dmt MP's are almost certainly due to impure products, etc.

dpt melts at something like 350 F. My guess is that it comes as a liquid (more accurately, a solution) because it doesnt make sense fiscally to purify it to crystalline form. is making dpt base a crystalline solid at standard pressure and temperature doable? sure. its probably a pain, though.

hell, a curious soul could easily analyze the dpt base solution, find out whats in it, and take out everything but dpt, not to mention get an idea of how much dpt youre actually getting per milliliter. so those erowid charts with DPT base mL are likely not as useful to you as you might think.
 

Morninggloryseed

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thinctwo said:
at given temperature, pressure, and atmospheric conditions, any pure substance has only one melting point (more accurately, one range of MP's). the multiple dmt MP's are almost certainly due to impure products, etc.
Yeah, that's what I learned in chemistry too. The confusing part comes from TIHKAL, "As to melting points, some in the literature are of plant isolates and other are of synthetic samples. A brief and incomplete survey has revealed the following numbers, all in °C: 44, 44.6-46.8, 46, 47, 48-49, 49-50, 56-57, 57-59, 58-60, 64-67, 67 and 67-68. The 58-60 and 64-67 values are from the Aldrich Chemical Company, for samples bearing the purity claims of "puriss" and 99+% "Gold Label" resp. The Merck Index gives the very early, very low values of 46 °C and 44.6-46.8 °C and claimes that the bp is 60-80 °C with atmospheric pressure being implied. It is clearly in error on both matters. No evidence has been published suggesting polymorphism. The published mp values for the trimethyl quaternary iodide span the range from 188 °C to 233 °C, including in-between values of 197 °C and 216-217 °C. This physical property is of limited value."

thinctwo said:
dpt melts at something like 350 F. My guess is that it comes as a liquid (more accurately, a solution) because it doesnt make sense fiscally to purify it to crystalline form. is making dpt base a crystalline solid at standard pressure and temperature doable? sure. its probably a pain, though.
350 F? You must be talking about the salt. Because DPT base crystals start to literally melt in a warm hand. And, some sellers of DPT freebase don't mind providing a quality product, as the DPT freebase crystals I am familiar with came from an on-line source. (Don't ask me, I won't tell)

Shulgin himself has said (off the record, in private conversations) that DPT freebase will crystalize if pure enough. I've seen 5-MeO-DMT freebase oil before so I guess it's not uncommon for other freebase tryptamines to become oils if they are not cleaned right. But I'm not a chemist and don't know.

But I do know that anybody selling DPT freebase oil is not selling as pure a product as possible. Of course, I'm not saying the DPT freebase oil on the market is not good. I'm simply saying the more pure DPT freebase in a solid form does exist on the market, and it wasn't any pricier than the DPT freebase oil I've seen at some other places.
 

Jesus Verga

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DPTHCO3...DPT Bicarbonate?

Has anyone tried making crack type rocks using baking soda?...Your mileage?

What about exposing DPT to dry ice as route to DPT Bicarbonate?
 

thinctwo

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mgs.. yeah, its def. the hcl salt that melts at 350 F... erowid chemistry isnt all that great apparently.

i cant find a msds on dpt for the life of me... its bugging me. i want to know the MP now. anyone out there capable of finding it?
 

austior

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The best way I've found to make the freebase is to pour the hcl salt straight into a cold mixture of ammonia and water. The freebase will float to the top/stick to the sides of the container. Skim the floaties off and pour out the ammonia water. You can put the dpt on a metal sheet and dry it in a warm over (even liquid base will stick to metal)

BTW, two solids of the same substance can have different MPs, regardless of the purity. In fact, they can even have slightly different densities. It depends on how the solid is "crystalized".
 

Morninggloryseed

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austior said:
BTW, two solids of the same substance can have different MPs, regardless of the purity. In fact, they can even have slightly different densities. It depends on how the solid is "crystalized".
Yeah that is what I was told. I'm not chemist though. But the guy I found out from was and, well, he knows his stuff. And that's what Shulgin said in TIHKAL. I quoted it above.
 

leungkachong

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As for the statement "how it was crystallized", let me clarify for that person. Depending on SPEED OF CRYSTALLIZATION, and the SOLVENT USED for crystallization, the crystals can take many different orientations and lattices. A good example is HgI2. When precipitated from a concentrated solution (fast rate), one obtaines orange tetragonal crystals. However, when precipitated from a dilute solution (slow rate), one obtains the yellow rhombic crystals. They both, when isolated have different melting points as a result! This isn't a great example, but it does explain the idea to some degree!
 

Dean Luna

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Jesus Verga said:
DPTHCO3...DPT Bicarbonate?

Has anyone tried making crack type rocks using baking soda?...Your mileage?

What about exposing DPT to dry ice as route to DPT Bicarbonate?
You can't make rock DPT because the DPT will evaporate long before it has "rocked-up." However that may IT IS SO EASY to freebase DPT with baking soda.

Simply cut in 1 part soda for every 3 parts DPT, put into a metal measuring cup and add a few drops of water and mix with the head of a pin. Pass the cup over a flame a few times (I use a gas stove) and stir again. Repeat six or ten times.

If you want to, you can simply rub this goop on some herbs, and smoke. If you would rather get rid of some of the salt you can wash it: Simply add a few drops of water again and stir, pour off the water. The DPT will not dissolve but will float around in globs.
 
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