Mental Health Coming off Invega Sustenna (Paliperidone) v3

[mrwelladjusted]

actually invega stores in fat so the less you weigh, the less the invega would be stored in your system.

I was thinking that if a person weighs little, then the same injection would cause this person to feel its side effects more. But maybe this is right, someone who weighs less would have the poison circulated faster, so there's more poison distributed daily, but it gets cleared out faster. I mean, no wonder animals that weigh less than humans take lower dosages of same medications.

Oh, and by the way, does having a lot of windows mean that the recovery is near? In the past two weeks I probably had at least 8 days that I felt better and I had around 5-10 windows, but those lasted for about no more than 3 hours (not sure if I should call those windows, but basically I felt much better for a short period of time, enjoying music so much and enjoying being outside), my condition is unstable as fuck, I feel good for 3 hours, then there's 5 hours of anxiety, then 8 of feeling relatively fine and so on. Two days ago I was feeling good, at the end of the day I felt almost like I'm recovered, then all of a sudden I started to feel huge anxiety and so far it lasts, I feel much, much worse now, can't even leave home, while two days back I was having a trip to another city, shopping etc. My mood amplitude comparing it to the last two weeks is huge.

 

[John78]

I was thinking that if a person weighs little, then the same injection would cause this person to feel its side effects more. But maybe this is right, someone who weighs less would have the poison circulated faster, so there's more poison distributed daily, but it gets cleared out faster. I mean, no wonder animals that weigh less than humans take lower dosages of same medications.

Oh, and by the way, does having a lot of windows mean that the recovery is near? In the past two weeks I probably had at least 8 days that I felt better and I had around 5-10 windows, but those lasted for about no more than 3 hours (not sure if I should call those windows, but basically I felt much better for a short period of time, enjoying music so much and enjoying being outside), my condition is unstable as fuck, I feel good for 3 hours, then there's 5 hours of anxiety, then 8 of feeling relatively fine and so on. Two days ago I was feeling good, at the end of the day I felt almost like I'm recovered, then all of a sudden I started to feel huge anxiety and so far it lasts, I feel much, much worse now, can't even leave home, while two days back I was having a trip to another city, shopping etc. My mood amplitude comparing it to the last two weeks is huge.

i wouldn't doubt if someone who weighs less would feel the effects more but the effects are the same through each and every person suffering. and the circulation depends on your metabolism, it's just that it stores in fat so it'd take awhile longer to get out of your system if you're heavier. might have to workout and go through the rereleased effects if there's still alot stored in the fat to get it out faster.
and i believe that windows are a sign of a close recovery. i had windows with sleep every 2 weeks and then after 39 days it was back to normal. i don't see why it'd be different for you even though you suffer differently. how long have you been off the medication? and you were on abilify right?

 

[mrwelladjusted]

i wouldn't doubt if someone who weighs less would feel the effects more but the effects are the same through each and every person suffering. and the circulation depends on your metabolism, it's just that it stores in fat so it'd take awhile longer to get out of your system if you're heavier. might have to workout and go through the rereleased effects if there's still alot stored in the fat to get it out faster.
and i believe that windows are a sign of a close recovery. i had windows with sleep every 2 weeks and then after 39 days it was back to normal. i don't see why it'd be different for you even though you suffer differently. how long have you been off the medication? and you were on abilify right?

I was considering losing and getting back my weight over and over again when I have read about this here on the forum, but there's not really much weigh I can lose. When I'm close to 50kg, I'm becoming anorectic. I almost had anorexia once, I don't want to come back to it. And I don't necessarily want to make the metabolism of a drug to be faster, since I'm already suffering enough, don't want to make it worse, I think I'd rather wait a couple of weeks more than feel the side effects increasing.

I was misdiagnosed with schizophrenia in a psychiatric ward, I knew they wouldn't let me out without an antipsychotic, so I agreed to have an injection, thought it's side effects won't last more than a month or so. I was given a single injection of Abilify Maintena 400mg with a half-life of 46,5 days, so it's similar to Invega Sustenna's two shots of 234 and 156mg or something like that with a 49 days half-life.

I have had the injection 2nd of March this year. So it's been 131 days/28 = 4.67 months.

And the windows of mine.. well, it's not really that I feel 100% of myself, but it's possibly something like 50% when they happen and sometimes it's 50+15% for an hour. I believe the symptoms we have and the suffer we go through is pretty similar, doesn't matter if it's paliperidone or aripiprazole, maybe except the weigh gain, after Abilify I didn't get even one gram of fat. Recently I even lost one kilogramme somehow, I didn't even go out that much or exercise. There was even a time that I started exercising about a month ago, cause I felt like I have enough power and will. I didn't feel that good really, it's just that I wanted to make muscles. My exercising lasted for about two weeks, then I felt sooo bad that I wasn't even able to make myself breakfast. Maybe it was because of the poison releasing due to exercising. Who knows. But I didn't lose weigh back then anyway.

 

[John78]

I was considering losing and getting back my weight over and over again when I have read about this here on the forum, but there's not really much weigh I can lose. When I'm close to 50kg, I'm becoming anorectic. I almost had anorexia once, I don't want to come back to it. And I don't necessarily want to make the metabolism of a drug to be faster, since I'm already suffering enough, don't want to make it worse, I think I'd rather wait a couple of weeks more than feel the side effects increasing.

I was misdiagnosed with schizophrenia in a psychiatric ward, I knew they wouldn't let me out without an antipsychotic, so I agreed to have an injection, thought it's side effects won't last more than a month or so. I was given a single injection of Abilify Maintena 400mg with a half-life of 46,5 days, so it's similar to Invega Sustenna's two shots of 234 and 156mg or something like that with a 49 days half-life.

I have had the injection 2nd of March this year. So it's been 131 days/28 = 4.67 months

eh, i don't think it'd make it worse if the metabolism of the drug was faster. i could be wrong though but my interpretation of drug metabolism is how quickly the medication comes and goes. how quickly it'd work, and how quickly it'd get out of your system. if anything, it'd manipulate how quickly you feel the side effects but not the depth. so there's no real harm in it metabolising faster unless you want to prolong the suffering.
and yeah, it's dirty that they won't let you out without an antipsychotic unless you're a serious danger to yourself or others. what happened that led you to the hospital?
and you're still fresh off imo but you could have a 5-6 month recovery if you asked me. you had a forsure window with several brief ones so i wouldn't really doubt that recovery time.

 

[mrwelladjusted]

eh, i don't think it'd make it worse if the metabolism of the drug was faster. i could be wrong though but my interpretation of drug metabolism is how quickly the medication comes and goes. how quickly it'd work, and how quickly it'd get out of your system. if anything, it'd manipulate how quickly you feel the side effects but not the depth. so there's no real harm in it metabolising faster unless you want to prolong the suffering.
and yeah, it's dirty that they won't let you out without an antipsychotic unless you're a serious danger to yourself or others. what happened that led you to the hospital?
and you're still fresh off imo but you could have a 5-6 month recovery if you asked me. you had a forsure window with several brief ones so i wouldn't really doubt that recovery time.

I can't be sure, the way I thought of metabolism was that if it's getting faster, then more of the poison has to be distributed daily out of fat tissues, so the larger dose has to take effect on you. You yourself have seen cases of people here that have started to feel side effects all over again when they started excersising, even after their recovery. I might be wrong, but I think I was reading something like this some pages before.

So the way I got to the hospital.. I mean, I'll try to explain it as shortly as I can. I have always had depression and OCD, I called an ambulance once because I mixed too much pregabaline with too much of alprazolam. Then, in the hospital, I talked to the psychologist, cause here in Poland in every psych ward you have to talk to them at the very beginning. I said I feel superior to others because I feel smarter than an average person and I guess the word "superior" was what made them think I'm schizophrenic, lol. So they have prescribed me neuroleptics, I got out. I talked to my psychiatrist and she said "these people can't be serious, you don't have schizophrenia, don't worry about it" and was diagnosed with a simple depression. The situation repeated then twice, because of my use of drugs. Everytime in the hospital they were diagnosing me with SZ, then my psychiatrist was saying it's ridiculous. At the third time they must have gotten mad and were like "let's give this motherfucker an injection", and they did.

And by the way, does having brief windows mean it's better than feeling better overall? Because I surely feel better overall and also have these short windows, though lately I'm in a much worse condition. I'm enjoying music by a lot for example, but I have dysarhtria/aphasia (problems with speech), I basically can't talk to people and it doesn't get better, maybe by a little bit sometimes and I'm extremely dumb and anxious, so I'm a weird case. I am pretty much able to enjoy doing activities and listening to music, but I have different side effects.

And I can't forget about mentioning that I'm using pridinol, an anticholinergic drug. I was prescribed it for my akathisia, started taking it and immediately felt better, that's why I started excersising back then. Not only it made my akathisia go away, but I wasn't that lethargic anymore.

 

[John78]

I can't be sure, the way I thought of metabolism was that if it's getting faster, then more of the poison has to be distributed daily out of fat tissues, so the larger dose has to take effect on you. You yourself have seen cases of people here that have started to feel side effects all over again when they started excersising, even after their recovery. I might be wrong, but I think I was reading something like this some pages before.

So the way I got to the hospital.. I mean, I'll try to explain it as shortly as I can. I have always had depression and OCD, I called an ambulance once because I mixed too much pregabaline with too much of alprazolam. Then, in the hospital, I talked to the psychologist, cause here in Poland in every psych ward you have to talk to them at the very beginning. I said I feel superior to others because I feel smarter than an average person and I guess the word "superior" was what made them think I'm schizophrenic, lol. So they have prescribed me neuroleptics, I got out. I talked to my psychiatrist and she said "these people can't be serious, you don't have schizophrenia, don't worry about it" and was diagnosed with a simple depression. The situation repeated then twice, because of my use of drugs. Everytime in the hospital they were diagnosing me with SZ, then my psychiatrist was saying it's ridiculous. At the third time they must have gotten mad and were like "let's give this motherfucker an injection", and they did.

And by the way, does having brief windows mean it's better than feeling better overall? Because I surely feel better overall and also have these short windows, though lately I'm in a much worse condition. I'm enjoying music by a lot for example, but I have dysarhtria/aphasia (problems with speech), I basically can't talk to people and it doesn't get better, maybe by a little bit sometimes and I'm extremely dumb and anxious, so I'm a weird case. I am pretty much able to enjoy doing activities and listening to music, but I have different side effects.

And I can't forget about mentioning that I'm using pridinol, an anticholinergic drug. I was prescribed it for my akathisia, started taking it and immediately felt better, that's why I started excersising back then. Not only it made my akathisia go away, but I wasn't that lethargic anymore.

i see what you're saying.
and that's weird that they treated you for schizophrenia. seems like some psychologists or psychiatrists are rookies or diagnoses happy. besides, a feeling of superiority could also be mania or hypomania but if you got evidence of your superiority than it's facts. not an illness.
and i think the brief windows are definetly a sign you're getting better but it's not better than being better if that's what you're saying.
and glad the meds helped your akathisia. good thing it isn't a dopamine issue or something where the medication for it would be rendered useless since APs antagonize dopamine receptors

 

[John78]

Just ordered St Johns Wort. hopefully this stuff works and i can go back to getting fucking intoxicated by October or atleast November.

 

[mrwelladjusted]

i see what you're saying.
and that's weird that they treated you for schizophrenia. seems like some psychologists or psychiatrists are rookies or diagnoses happy. besides, a feeling of superiority could also be mania or hypomania but if you got evidence of your superiority than it's facts. not an illness.
and i think the brief windows are definetly a sign you're getting better but it's not better than being better if that's what you're saying.
and glad the meds helped your akathisia. good thing it isn't a dopamine issue or something where the medication for it would be rendered useless since APs antagonize dopamine receptors

Why is it exactly that brief windows are better than being better overall?

Is the St. John's Wort you bought an alcohol extract? And is it standarized? I wrote about it before that it's crucial, because hyperforin is degraded by light, temperature and oxygen. It won't work at all if it isn't an alcohol extract. I bought mine and then I realised that mine wasn't, so I wasted money, cause non of those available in Poland are alcohol extracts. Maybe I'll import it from the USA, though it's gonna cost some money and obviously I'd have to wait a little for it to arrive.

 

[mrwelladjusted]

If you asked me if CYP3A4 inducers work.. well, I don't know, but I can tell you that I took 5mg of escitalopram once and it is a CYP2D6 inhibitor, so the other day I experienced a huge akathisia, my muscles started to hurt badly due to an interaction between it and aripiprazole. And it lasted for about a week after a single dose of esci. So I guess if St. John's Wort is about to help you, then it should start working immediately, not after two weeks like they say in the drug's leaflet. Which is good.

 

[John78]

Why is it exactly that brief windows are better than being better overall?

Is the St. John's Wort you bought an alcohol extract? And is it standarized? I wrote about it before that it's crucial, because hyperforin is degraded by light, temperature and oxygen. It won't work at all if it isn't an alcohol extract. I bought mine and then I realised that mine wasn't, so I wasted money, cause non of those available in Poland are alcohol extracts. Maybe I'll import it from the USA, though it's gonna cost some money and obviously I'd have to wait a little for it to arrive.

they're not. being better is better.

and i'm not sure. it doesn't say. just shows it's 700mg. i'll have to wait until i get it to know for sure. how can i tell? does it show under the ingredients?

 

[John78]

If you asked me if CYP3A4 inducers work.. well, I don't know, but I can tell you that I took 5mg of escitalopram once and it is a CYP2D6 inhibitor, so the other day I experienced a huge akathisia, my muscles started to hurt badly due to an interaction between it and aripiprazole. And it lasted for about a week after a single dose of esci. So I guess if St. John's Wort is about to help you, then it should start working immediately, not after two weeks like they say in the drug's leaflet.

i figured it'd work immediately, except for the depression effects. that could probably take like 2 or more weeks. hopefully it dramatically cuts my recovery time.

 

[mrwelladjusted]

they're not. being better is better.

and i'm not sure. it doesn't say. just shows it's 700mg. i'll have to wait until i get it to know for sure. how can i tell? does it show under the ingredients?

Yeah, I guess they must include alcohol in the ingredients. And if there isn't, then don't even bother taking it, find a product that for sure is an alcohol extract and has a high hipericin and hiperforin content and is standarized. I guess you have to find a study in which they say what exact product they used that contains high amounts of it. I used to read some studies on it, though I don't remember the names of the products.

And I'm pretty sure in this case it's more important for it to have a high hiperforin content other than hipericin.

 

[John78]

Yeah, I guess they must include alcohol in the ingredients. And if there isn't, then don't even bother taking it, find a product that for sure is an alcohol extract and has a high hipericin and hiperforin content and is standarized. I guess you have to find a study in which they say what exact product they used that contains high amounts of it. I used to read some studies on it, though I don't remember the names of the products.

And I'm pretty sure in this case it's more important for it to have a high hiperforin content other than hipericin.

alright. where does it show that on the bottle? if it has hipericin and hiperforin? and i think all that matters is that it's a P-gp inducer. i don't think it containing hipericin and hiperforin would really matter.

 

[mrwelladjusted]

alright. where does it show that on the bottle? if it has hipericin and hiperforin? and i think all that matters is that it's a P-gp inducer. i don't think it containing hipericin and hiperforin would really matter.

Spoiler: 1st

Hopefully I don't get banned for advertising.

Spoiler: 2nd

Spoiler: 3rd

You can clearly see that mine doesn't contain alcohol, methanol or whatever it's called. It should be written on its side.

I didn't realize it has to be a P-gp inducer, thought that paliperidone is a CYP3A4 substrate, just like aripiprazole, so that would be the reason why St. John's Wort speeds up its metabolism, my bad.

Then I can't be sure if it must contain hiperforin and hipericin. But surely it would be better if it does contain it and is alcohol based.

Though I still think it probably should contain high amounts of hiperforin, at least in order to get antidepressive effects, just look at the screenshots.

I can remember a study in which I read that products containing more than 10mg of hyperforin in a capsule are considered "high ammounts", but obviously, the more - the better. I'll go to bed now.

And I just have read that this Amoryn product contains 25mg of 5-HTP, so I wouldn't recommend buying this one in your case, you shouldn't use 5-HTP for a long time. Not for longer than a month or two, that's for sure.

 

[John78]

Spoiler: 1st

Hopefully I don't get banned for advertising.

Spoiler: 2nd

Spoiler: 3rd

You can clearly see that mine doesn't contain alcohol, methanol or whatever it's called. It should be written on its side.

I didn't realize it has to be a P-gp inducer, thought that paliperidone is a CYP3A4 substrate, just like aripiprazole, so that would be the reason why St. John's Wort speeds up its metabolism, my bad.

Then I can't be sure if it must contain hiperforin and hipericin. But surely it would be better if it does contain it and is alcohol based.

Though I still think it probably should contain high amounts of hiperforin, at least in order to get antidepressive effects, just look at the screenshots.

I can remember a study in which I read that products containing more than 10mg of hyperforin in a capsule are considered "high ammounts", but obviously, the more - the better. I'll go to bed now.

And I just have read that this Amoryn product contains 25mg of 5-HTP, so I wouldn't recommend buying this one in your case, you shouldn't use 5-HTP for a long time. Not for longer than a month or two, that's for sure.

well if that stuff is just for depression then i'm not worried about it. but invega is soluble by ethenol and methonal so it'd be even better to take if it contains methonal. maybe drinking (alcohol is ethanol btw) helps get rid of the medication lol. but as far as i'm concerned it's a p-gp and cyp3a4 inducer which helps metabolize the medication. cyp3a4 is found in the liver and invega is barely metabolized by the liver but p-gp is found in the kidney proximal tubule and invega is metabolized renally.

 

[John78]

well if that stuff is just for depression then i'm not worried about it. but invega is soluble by ethenol and methonal so it'd be even better to take if it contains methonal. maybe drinking (alcohol is ethanol btw) helps get rid of the medication lol. but as far as i'm concerned it's a p-gp and cyp3a4 inducer which helps metabolize the medication. cyp3a4 is found in the liver and invega is barely metabolized by the liver but p-gp is found in the kidney proximal tubule and invega is metabolized renally.

just watched a video on drug interactions with st johns wort and it did indeed say something about hyperforin and it's metabolising factor as it induces CYP3A4. but i think hyperforin is in the plant itself and not just an additive though, so it'd be in all pills. i could be wrong though, i'm still looking around. i found an article though that states that less than 1% doesn't have any clinical relevance towards drug interactions (metabolizing it), so i think it'd be tough finding a St John's Wort pill rich in hyperforin.

 

[Masterp423]

like you got a buzz or just relatively felt good? maybe give it some time, do it again to test if it was just a window, and see if you can enjoy that stuff again. would be nice to hear if you can enjoy substances again after just 3 months. that's an early time. the most common early time is 5 months. anything less is unusual.

I think it was just dopamine from the tobacco and social media. It hasn’t happened again since but I think I’ll recover quicker than most. I was getting drunk a month off of the Invega but I couldn’t get high on weed. I’ve tried to overload my dopamine receptors as much as possible with tobacco and social media. I think it’s a good strategy to stimulate your dopamine receptors

 

[wholetthedogsout56]

Hyperforin is actually an inhibitor of CYP2D6 which Paliperidone uses. Whether or not the induction of CYP3A4 outweighs the inhibition of CYP2D6 I am unsure.

List of cytochrome P450 modulators - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[mrwelladjusted]

Spoiler: 1st

Spoiler: 2nd

I actually have never heard of anyone getting a sunburn after taking it, but it might be because majority of people buys those products that don't contain alcohol. I think that the product won't work unless it's alcohol based, because we have this Polish forum called "hyperreal" and in a thread dedicated for St. John's Wort everyone says that it must contain it in order to work and that you should not use it during summertime, something around the end of September to April would be alright. I don't know medicine/psychiatry so much, I'm just saying what I have read.

 

[mrwelladjusted]

So I have found a single dose curve of Abilify Maintena 400 mg (I found out the graph made by myself previously was wrong), I lenghtened it in Excel using a half-life calculator and it seems that I have approximately 22 mg out of 400 left today. It says on the Internet that 400 mg is comparable to oral 20 mg. If 20 mg are 5% of 400, then 22 mg should be an equivalence of 1,1 mg given orally. The max dose is 30 mg, people usually take around 15, and 2 mg is a starting dose. What's for sure is that 1,1 mg is not so much, it is actually a really low dose, not even therapeutic. I should feel fine by now and basically any person after around 5 months should be relatively okay, since the dose after that time is ridiculously low, the same applies to Invega. So why is it that we all feel bad anyway?

And this is what I've found on the Internet

Spoiler: Dose of aripiprazole and ranges of occupancy of dopamine D2 receptors

not sure what "caudate" and "putamen" mean, this is the first time I came across these words, lol.

One person on the schizophrenia forum wrote:

"There’s a certain level of receptor occupancy that seems to be necessary for antipsychotic activity and for side effects, as determined by PET scan studies. On the D2 receptors, occupancy above 50% can cause side effects. Occupancy above 65% is usually necessary to have an anti psychotic effect. "

So based on that I should be ok by now, since the dose I have left in my system doesn't cause an occupancy above 50%. It's either true or I am just too dumb and I'm constantly looking for any informations that'd say that we should have recovered faster.