• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Circumcision

I did fantasise for a while about violent retribution but I’m too laid back for that kind of thing and contented myself with knowing I had a far more rewarding and successful life than the creeps who molested me.

I feel the same now...but for a while once I realised what had happened, I wanted her to re-appear so I could "catch" her...but she never did reappear. So that was that. I feel bad about my body from time to time, but I did eventually "recover" from the initial psychological distress once I found out what had really happened. I still find it hard to move on from all the stuff that happened in my early life...but I'll keep trying. I don't think I want to give up just yet...but for the last few weeks I've felt like throwing the towel in. I know we all go through these crises especially from trauma resulting from being abused in this way.

I spoke to a doctor today and will be seeing a psych, so I will discuss the ADHD and daily frustrations and anger from that point, but I am not sure how well I'll be treated, or even whether the treatments will even work. He is a good psych but specialises in autism, but is trained in ADHD so he would know what to look for. I'll probably be tried on Strattera first, which is fine. I might get my anti-depressants topped up a bit too, the 60mg might not be enough so maybe 90mg might help, I've been on that dose before. I know people who take 120mg of mirt, so I don't see why they can't script for it to see if it works.
 
I spoke to a doctor today and will be seeing a psych, so I will discuss the ADHD and daily frustrations and anger from that point, but I am not sure how well I'll be treated, or even whether the treatments will even work. He is a good psych but specialises in autism, but is trained in ADHD so he would know what to look for. I'll probably be tried on Strattera first, which is fine. I might get my anti-depressants topped up a bit too, the 60mg might not be enough so maybe 90mg might help, I've been on that dose before. I know people who take 120mg of mirt, so I don't see why they can't script for it to see if it works.

That’s really good news. I’m so glad to know you’ll get a thorough review of what’s going on with you.

Trust me, your life changes completely if you have undiagnosed ADHD and finally get treated as an adult. My life was 100 times better after I was medicated for ADHD properly.

Strattera is supposed to be effective but if does have sexual side effects like an SSRI. It’s actually not the first line treatment for ADHD. Usually the order of trying drugs is ritalin, then dexamfetamine, then strattera.

Obviously I only know you from what you say on BL and in our private messages so I don’t want to presume anything, but when you talk about your anger it might be useful to discuss how it manifests in focussing a bit obsessively on what has angered you.

When I was diagnosed for Bipolar and ADHD I was also diagnosed for moderate “obsessive only obsessive compulsive disorder”. Basically I would get these very destructive thoughts in my head and ruminate and obsess about them endlessly until I was quite distraught. I just couldn’t let them go - a bit like you with the ER doctor and the circumcision but not so angry and focussed on retribution.

Anyway, the doctor put me on medication to reduce that while I learned Mindfulness and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy as a more long term solution. The medication was Abilify, but there are other options. Anyway, just a thought given you are being very open about your issues and treatment.
 
As to why any man would lose their shit because they'd been circumcised (assuming a proper job was done) ostensibly against their will given that they were newborns at the time is beyond me to be honest.

Okay, I'll keep it simple.

What gives anyone the right to cut into the genitals of a baby, any baby, no matter what the gender? Does cosmetic preferences, or "cleanliness" give any adult the right to do this to a defenseless baby when we all know that children can be taught to clean themselves, and that they OWN their genitals and their body, and can decide for themselves whether they want to be cut or not?

If you can answer this question honest to God truthfully, I'll give you a Nobel Peace award.

It still makes no sense to me. It's a blatant human rights violation, it's like trimming the labia of a 5 year old girl. It's just abhorrent, barbaric and disgusting to me and really should be disgusting to any real doctor or healthcare professional who has a conscience. Believe me, there are literally thousands and thousands of doctors here in Australia who consider circumcision without medical necessity child abuse and I for one cannot ever blame them. They are absolutely right. It's not your penis for starters, and your child is smart enough to know what they really want - and that's why grown men rarely ever get cut later unless there is a medical problem. I've rarely if ever heard of a man getting himself cut due to "hygiene" or aesthetic reasons...I bet it happens but it's just so fucking rare as to be a statistical anomaly.
 
I definitely understand @Flynnal’s argument from a rights-based perspective. I don’t agree with it, but I think it is a quite strong argument with a lot of legitimacy.

However, I find it difficult to accept the trauma argument. I’d need to see now well-researched data demonstrating that grown men suffer psychologically as a result of being snipped as babies.

I’d believe the trauma argument for muslim communities though, where the circumcision is done at 12years old and then celebrated with a giant party. I’ve actually seen young boys with seriously mutilated and infected penises when I lived in a muslim country (the parents showed me in order to solicit financial help to get medical treatment - which I provided).
 
If y'all would head back <--- in yonder direction to some of the earlier pages, you'll find plenty of rational sciency reasons discussed as to why circumcision isn't necessarily a mostly cosmetic procedure with largely just visual and/or pleasure enhancing properties. Many people aren't so fortunate when circumcised, and experience a number of rather damaging lifelong consequences from the operation.

And while of course many things do wreck people's lives, the point is that this procedure is an entirely elective procedure in most cases, and thus unnecessary. Which therefore clashes somewhat awkwardly with the hippocratic oath and its imperative that physicians should avoid unnecessary elective procedures that have the potential to cause serious harm, particularly to people (babies, mostly) who can obviously have no say in the decision at the time that decision is usually made.

CFC said:
Circumcision’s Psychological Damage
Narvaez, D. (2015)

The circumcision of children has myriad negative psychological consequences that the CDC has failed to consider. Removing healthy tissue in the absence of any medical need harms the patient and is a breach of medical providers’ ethical duty to the child. We believe that all people have a right to bodily autonomy and self-determination and deeply respect this fundamental tenet of international human rights law (UNESCO 2005). As children cannot advocate for themselves, they need adults to understand the complexities of their emotional experiences and provide them special protection. We oppose the CDC’s circumcision recommendation and encourage all parents to do the same in order to protect their children from physical and psychological harm.

Full article >>here<<

Next up, let's have an overview of some of the potential physical harms. This book is a good one (and one that I had to read when I was an advisor on the subject some years ago). Here's a couple snippets of the intro. You may be able to read the whole book following the link or possibly on Google books. I know some of the articles within have also become journal articles in their own right, so may be available:

TBbyYBN.png

3NSNBK5.png


To quote:

96.2% suspected or were confident that circumcision had resulted in a reduction of the normal male capacity for sexual response and pleasure.


(Stable link to book: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-2679-4_11 )


Next is a general collection of some of the vast library of literature covering physical harms, moral consequences and so forth:

Long-Term Consequences of Neonatal Injury
Beggs, Simon
The Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, 2015, Vol.60(4), pp.176-180

In this review, the impact of neonatal surgical incision on nociceptive circuitry is discussed in terms of the underlying developmental neurobiology. The changes are complex, occurring at multiple anatomical sites within the CNS, and including both neuronal and glial cell populations. The altered sensory input from neonatal injury selectively modulates neuronal excitability within the spinal cord, disrupts inhibitory control, and primes the immune system, all of which contribute to the adverse long-term consequences of early pain exposure.


Neonatal Circumcision Reconsidered
Rhinehart, John
Transactional Analysis Journal, 1999, Vol.29(3), pp.215-221

This article discusses the present status of neonatal circumcision in the United States and presents clinical findings regarding the long-term somatic, emotional, and psychological consequences of this procedure in adult men. These consequences are seen as typical of complex posttraumatic stress disorder. They emerged during psychotherapy focused on the resolution of prenatal, perinatal, and developmental trauma and shock experiences. Their relationship to phenomena such as trauma, shock, somatic decisions, discounting, and scripting is described


Male circumcision and sexual function in men and women: a survey-based, cross-sectional study in Denmark
Frisch, Morten ; Lindholm, Morten ; Grønbæk, Morten
International Journal of Epidemiology, 2011, Vol. 40(5), pp.1367-1381

Findings were stable in several robustness analyses, including one restricted to non-Jews and non-Moslems. Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men [...] notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.


After Cologne: male circumcision and the law. Parental right, religious liberty or criminal assault?
Merkel, Reinhard ; Putzke, Holm
Journal of Medical Ethics, 22 July 2013, Vol.39(7) pp.444-9

Non-therapeutic circumcision violates boys' right to bodily integrity as well as to self-determination. There is neither any verifiable medical advantage connected with the intervention nor is it painless nor without significant risks. Possible negative consequences for the psychosexual development of circumcised boys (due to substantial loss of highly erogenous tissue) have not yet been sufficiently explored, but appear to ensue in a significant number of cases. According to standard legal criteria, these considerations would normally entail that the operation be deemed an 'impermissible risk'-neither justifiable on grounds of parental rights nor of religious liberty: as with any other freedom right, these end where another person's body begins. Nevertheless, after a resounding decision by a Cologne district court that non-therapeutic circumcision constitutes bodily assault, the German legislature responded by enacting a new statute expressly designed to permit male circumcision even outside of medical settings. We first criticise the normative foundations upon which such a legal concession seems to rest, and then analyse two major flaws in the new German law which we consider emblematic of the difficulty that any legal attempt to protect medically irrelevant genital cutting is bound to face.


Adult Male Circumcision Does Not Reduce the Risk of Incident Neisseria gonorrhoeae, Chlamydia trachomatis, or Trichomonas vaginalis Infection: Results from a Randomized, Controlled Trial in Kenya
Supriya D. Mehta, Stephen Moses, Kawango Agot, Corette Parker, Jeckoniah O. Ndinya-Achola, Ian Maclean, Robert C. Bailey
J Infect Dis (2009) 200 (3): 370-378.

We examined the effect of male circumcision on the acquisition of 3 nonulcerative sexually transmitted infections (STIs). Circumcision of men in this population did not reduce their risk of acquiring these nonulcerative STIs. Improved STI control will require more-effective STI management, including partner treatment and behavioral risk reduction counseling.


Neonatal circumcision does not reduce HIV/AIDS infection rates
D Sidler, J Smith, H Rode
SOUTH AFRICAN MEDICAL JOURNAL, Volume 98, Number 10: Pages 762-766 (2008 ).

Male non-therapeutic infant circumcision is neither medically nor ethically justified as an HIV prevention tool. Circumcision is not equivalent to successful immunisation. There are far more effective prevention tools costing considerably less and offering better HIV reduction outcomes than circumcision.

Finally, the WHO and UNAIDS appear to be basing these multi-million-dollar prevention programmes on limited and in some instances biased information. In order to prevent confusion and parents making misguided decisions on behalf of their infants, and to offer effective help in alleviating the suffering that is being created by HIV/AIDS, a much broader review process would be called for. Such a process would involve more objective scientific opinion, and the involvement of a representative panel of African experts, such as paediatric surgeons and neonatologists.


Religious circumcision, invasive rites, neutrality and equality: bearing the burdens and consequences of belief
Johnson, Matthew Thomas
Journal of Medical Ethics, Jul 2013, Vol.39(7), p.450

The decision of the German regional court in Cologne on 26 June 2012 to prohibit the circumcision of minors is important insofar as it recognises the qualitative similarities between the practice and other prohibited invasive rites, such as female genital cutting. However, recognition of similarity poses serious questions with regard to liberal public policy, specifically with regard to the exceptionalist treatment demanded by certain circumcising groups. In this paper, I seek to advance egalitarian means of dealing with invasive rites which take seriously cultural diversity, minimise harm and place responsibility for the burdens and consequences of beliefs upon those who promote practices.


Male circumcision: pain, trauma and psychosexual sequelae
Boyle, Gregory J ; Goldman, Ronald ; Svoboda, J Steven ; Fernandez, Ephrem
Journal of health psychology, May 2002, Vol.7(3), pp.329-43

Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anaesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual and psychological consequences too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault. In view of the acute as well as long-term risks from circumcision and the legal liabilities that might arise, it is timely for health professionals and scientists to re-examine the evidence on this issue and participate in the debate about the advisability of this surgical procedure on unconsenting minors.


Do the Benefits of Male Circumcision Outweigh the Risks? A Critique of the Proposed CDC Guidelines
Earp, Brian D
Frontiers in pediatrics, 2015, Vol.3, pp.18

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have announced a set of provisional guidelines concerning male circumcision, in which they suggest that the benefits of the surgery outweigh the risks. I offer a critique of the CDC position. Among other concerns, I suggest that the CDC relies more heavily than is warranted on studies from Sub-Saharan Africa that neither translate well to North American populations nor to circumcisions performed before an age of sexual debut; that it employs an inadequate conception of risk in its benefit vs. risk analysis; that it fails to consider the anatomy and functions of the penile prepuce (i.e., the part of the penis that is removed by circumcision); that it underestimates the adverse consequences associated with circumcision by focusing on short-term surgical complications rather than long-term harms; that it portrays both the risks and benefits of circumcision in a misleading manner, thereby undermining the possibility of obtaining informed consent; that it evinces a superficial and selective analysis of the literature on sexual outcomes associated with circumcision; and that it gives less attention than is desirable to ethical issues surrounding autonomy and bodily integrity. I conclude that circumcision before an age of consent is not an appropriate health-promotion strategy.
 
That’s a great array of articles, some of which look pretty sciency. I’m going to look into them with an open mind. However, it only took about 5 seconds of looking at the Hammond book to see it falls squarely in the category of agenda-based grievance studies where evidence is marshalled merely to prove the conclusions already made.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CFC
That’s a great array of articles, some of which look pretty sciency. I’m going to look into them with an open mind. However, it only took about 5 seconds of looking at the Hammond book to see it falls squarely in the category of agenda-based grievance studies where evidence is marshalled merely to prove the conclusions already made.

The same applies to many pro-circumcision tropes. I might suggest you try to keep an open mind wrt your presumed biases. If you only want to find faults, then I'm sure you'll hit your mark and that's mostly all you'll see. Regardless, people with compassion and empathy shouldn't dismiss throughly well documented harms so blithely, imo. I shan't spoonfeed the many websites of the pictures of harm wrought (for example) because I do rather find this subject tedious having been paid to advise on it (lol) many years back, and google is your friend if you actually want to understand "the other side". If not, my efforts would serve little purpose anyway ;)
 
circumcsicion is a barbaric outdated 2000 year + old practice. Im still dumb founded why americans practice suck a vile thing. Probably the NWO cabal telling the feeble sheep as its a old practice for those 2000 year old + cults who invented the practice to then eat the foreskins and sacrifice lambs.
 
The same applies to many pro-circumcision tropes. I might suggest you try to keep an open mind wrt your presumed biases. If you only want to find faults, then I'm sure you'll hit your mark and that's mostly all you'll see. Regardless, people with compassion and empathy shouldn't dismiss throughly well documented harms so blithely, imo. I shan't spoonfeed the many websites of the pictures of harm wrought (for example) because I do rather find this subject tedious having been paid to advise on it (lol) many years back, and google is your friend if you actually want to understand "the other side". If not, my efforts would serve little purpose anyway ;)

I’m all for the other side. Most of my pro arguments here are sophistry triggered by the over-emoting of people on the anti side. If a pro-circumcision member was threatening to kill themselves if they were not allowed to cut their newborn, I’d likely be marshalling the arguments against. I’m secure in my body and wish the same to all men regardless of how they are put together. But I do like a good debate and am usually not partial to which side I’m on so long as the other side knows how to argue logically.
 
Ever seen a grown man catch his foreskin in the zipper of his jeans?

No, fortunately I haven't, but I'm sure it happens. I'm also sure that people walk into tree branches and poke an eye out...or get their fingernail caught on something.

And believe me: if you ever see THAT happen you will FOR SURE become a convert!

Trust me, I wouldn't. It's a simple accident. People have accidents all the time.

That doesn't mean we should remove eyeballs or fingernails. I'm sure the occasional girl has straddled something that damaged her nether areas too.

Doing this to anyone under the age of consent should really be outlawed except for cases where there is a clear medical justification...none of this cosmetic, religious or "preventative" bullshit.
 
circumcsicion is a barbaric outdated 2000 year + old practice. Im still dumb founded why americans practice suck a vile thing. Probably the NWO cabal telling the feeble sheep as its a old practice for those 2000 year old + cults who invented the practice to then eat the foreskins and sacrifice lambs.

Ah yes, I forget how potent the anti american thing is on BL.
 
I posted in the other thread but can't find it now. Anyway, I'm in the minority because I was born with severe jaundice; I was yellow and had to get treatment. I even posted a link in the other thread about Judaism and jaundice where it says they have to wait to see if circumcision is safe or not. I wonder how that works but there's no other information I could find about it

I was circumcised so I wouldn't get an infection, which is standard procedure for jaundice at birth. I guess I'm torn on the issue (just kidding, ha). Maybe it should be up to doctors. My mind says if they're forced to decide, they won't do it unless it's a medical necessity. However, I'm not saying my line of thinking is accurate

I respect individuality above all else. I'm imagining all those babies that are born places other than hospitals and end up going there later to have a circumcision. That makes me cringe, especially when you think that it might not even be necessary
 
I respect individuality above all else. I'm imagining all those babies that are born places other than hospitals and end up going there later to have a circumcision. That makes me cringe, especially when you think that it might not even be necessary

Makes me more than cringe. It breaks my heart like a brick to a wineglass. I know of far, far too many cases where they had absolutely no medical justification - it was mostly so the son "matches" the father and the rationalizations that were used to make it appear that there was a "scientific" reason behind it, which only served to further insult my intelligence and make me even angrier than I already was. I knew what the real reason was because the mother of the child was being honest with me and told me.
 
Yes of course because i am happy with myself and would want my child to be. Your insinuating that it is bad and my thoughts need to be grounded in logic rather then experience. If I dont care then why not get it done so my child and myself are similar?

You seem to be of the belief it is somehow bad, i do not share that belief and feel it is neutral. I ask again why would i make my kid different then me for the sake of something i dont care about?

Because perhaps the child won't ever do it when he grows up? You just talk about yourself not what your childs whish would be. And just because you don't care about - perhaps your child do? Perhaps your child want to be different than you?

Sorry, old thread but this I definitely have to bring up.
 
Because perhaps the child won't ever do it when he grows up? You just talk about yourself not what your childs whish would be. And just because you don't care about - perhaps your child do? Perhaps your child want to be different than you?

Sorry, old thread but this I definitely have to bring up.

If he doesn't care about it then why would he subject his son to an unnecessary and brutal genital surgery?

Fuck me dead some people are strange. They would "just fucking do it" to a DEFENSELESS BABY.

The psychopathology behind this senseless mutilation is so far beyond my ability to comprehend and understand let alone process.
 
But it's not "brutal" genital surgery or "mutilation" (if done proper). I'd agree with you if it was the entire dick or an unfortunate slip of the scalpel (the former being just a tad unfair and the latter being a sad state of affairs)! Lol!

Agree to disagree. I was so deeply traumatised that I am still trying to cope 6+ years later.

I apologised to @BellaJewel but maybe it I had already blown my chance and my messages were auto-deleted. I don't know. I thought I would have heard from her by now but nope...no reply. I tried to explain to her that I had autism and I would hope that she understood how much this fucking cunt of a condition affects me.

It has ruined my life. Let's just say that.
 
Well done @Flynnal. I’m proud of you. That anger seems to well in check.

Well, I realise there is no point in going on when everyone takes a different view. I guess everyone has their favorite colors, foods, etc. I won't keep on about it and will just watch the conversation from a less emotionally involved perspective.

It won't change my view but it keeps me under control.
 
Top