Circumcision

[Jabberwocky]

All these arguments to support circumcision are just so fucking old and worn out, and I'm sick of reading them.

Personally I’m glad to be circumcised for several reasons:

1. The vast majority of women I’ve encountered clearly prefer a cut cock. Even the European ones who you’d think would be much more experienced with the uncut kind.

Don’t just take me word for it quantitative data on this preference across cultures exists. Let’s go with the science on this one:

Sex and Male Circumcision: Women’s Preferences Across Different Cultures and Countries: A Systematic Review

Women’s choices for a sexual partner are influenced by numerous personal, cultural, social, political and religious factors, and may also include aspects of penile anatomy such as male circumcision (MC) status.To perform a systematic review examining ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

2. As a keen lover of women, I appreciate the confidence of knowing I am significantly less likely to contract a sexually transmitted disease thanks to my circumcised cock. Doubtful? Don’t just accept my assurance that I’ve never picked up a bug from maybe 300 different women across 7countries, check out the science:

The Medical Benefits of Male Circumcision

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

When you get on top of the science it becomes clear that circumcision should not be seen as genital trauma. It should be valued as genital enhancement. Given I care deeply about women loving my cock but not giving it any kind of nasty bugs it is clear that I have a lot of reason to be grateful to my parents.

I can’t help thinking that a lot of this negativity towards circumcision is actually coming from guys who are uncut and are suffering a degree of resentement about maybe having a lesser quality appendage

 

[mal3volent]

I've been rejected for being cut before

That is really shocking and sad to me. I couldn't imagine doing that to someone, even if I had a strong preference one way or the other.

 

[Foreigner]

The medical benefits are overstated, IMO. We're talking marginal differences between cut and uncut for disease susceptibility. In my research, it turned out that a lot of said "science" was coming out of countries like Israel as they pushed a pro-circumcision agenda in the WHO. Of course religious people are going to find ways to justify it.

I don't think it benefits anybody to argue over which one is better, sexually and socially. When people write about how foreskins are superior, it hurts my feelings, just as I'm sure it hurts people's feelings when they read that most women prefer cut dicks. The same shit comes up when we talk about dick sizes. What I find most sexy in a partner is confidence and their ability to share mutual, WHOLE BODY pleasure, not just dick focus.

I also don't think we need to turn to medical science to justify the sanctity of our bodies. The science informs medicine which informs disease care, but there is much more to us than that, just like there is much more to our pleasure perception than our nerve endings. All the accredited psychology research shows that pain and pleasure perception are formed by a very complex milieu of biology, expectation/reward dynamics, trauma history, and familial upbringing.

What's the bottom line here? That depending on your foreskin status, you might be missing out. I don't know, is that true? We are really less than if we have a foreskin or no foreskin? I mean... if you take a step back, it's kind of trivial in the grand scheme of our short lives.

 

[TheInvisibleStoner]

Her body her rights. His body his rights.

Male circumcision and sexual function in men and women: a survey-based, cross-sectional study in Denmark - PubMed

Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. Thorough examination of these matters in areas where male...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ever smelled a woman's genitals? Yeah? Sure you have, you would have to have. Why aren't you advocating for trimming the labia of baby girls then?

All these arguments to support circumcision are just so fucking stupid and worn out, and I'm sick of reading them. It's 2020 for fucks sake, leave babies alone.

You know someone got circumcised in their 40s...well, so? I know a woman who had to have part of her labia removed because of an infection. Your point being? Another useless argument to defend infant genital mutilation?

I'm not advocating anything for girls. There is no need to cut the labia. Not sure how this is getting lumped into male circumcision.

For boys, I guess its up to their parents.

The survey found 80% of the women considered a circumcised penis to be more sensitive, and 96% though it was easier to keep clean. Of 68 women with uncircumcised partners, 69% preferred circumcised partners, including circumcision for their current partner.

Women also prefer it as you can see. They find it cleaner as well. Because it is. I couldn't think of a single guy that was snipped and wishes he wasn't.

There is also less risk for cancer, UTI's, STD's, etc when snipped. There is an actual reason to do it.

 

[CFC]

All these arguments to support circumcision are just so fucking stupid and worn out, and I'm sick of reading them. It's 2020 for fucks sake, leave babies alone.

Well, you know you're right, so do most doctors in countries where there's no financial incentive to circumcise the male penis (eg the UK, where the BMA considers there to be no situation in which circumcision is "ethical"), so just ignore them mate (y)

Also, look at things from their POV: I'm sure you must understand that many men who 'support' circumcision are often simply projecting because they themselves have been circumcised?

Think about how their brain is working: if they conceded it was, indeed, not the right thing to do to a perfectly normal part of the male anatomy, it would be like saying that they themselves have an imperfect penis.

That would obviously be harmful to the ego/self-perception of many, especially many straight men, who are supposed to pretend they're the perfect alpha male to attract women in our society yada yada. And so they feel the need, consciously or otherwise, to defend the practice from various anti-circumcision narratives.

And thus we have these discussions where at times people seem to clutch at straws to defend an archaic practice that's considered unethical in countries where it's not common. So, imo, try not to take pushback too personally or get worked up over the illogic or apparent lack of objectivity of some of the positions held.

 

[mal3volent]

Well, you know you're right, so do most doctors in countries where there's no financial incentive to circumcise the male penis (eg the UK, where the BMA considers there to be no situation in which circumcision is "ethical"), so just ignore them mate (y)

Also, look at things from their POV: I'm sure you must understand that many men who 'support' circumcision are often simply projecting because they themselves have been circumcised?

Think about how their brain is working: if they conceded it was, indeed, not the right thing to do to a perfectly normal part of the male anatomy, it would be like saying that they themselves have an imperfect penis.

They can't cope with that, it's harmful to their ego, especially to straight men, who are supposed to pretend they're the perfect alpha male to attract women blah blah. So they have to defend circumcision at all costs.

And so we have these absurd discussions where people clutch at straws to defend an archaic practice that's considered unethical in countries where it's not common. So, imo, try not to take it personally or get too worked up over the illogic of some of the positions - you know why they're lacking objectivity.

honestly man, this post is just as combative as any in this thread. It seems to me that some people will not rest until they make circumcised guys feel inferior and ashamed. Why should I? Everyone I grew up with was cut, I actually didn't know there was such a thing as an uncircumcised penis until I was a teenager. I've never felt cheated or embarrassed. I've never been rejected for it. I hate my parents for many reasons but not because I feel they mutilated me.

im Not "defending" the practice. I agree that there is no real reason these days to do it. But back when I was born, in the area we lIved, it was accepted as the norm.

what are you guys looking for exactly, for me to feel ashamed and to resent my parents? Admit that your penis with all its glorious skin is better than my weak, nerve damaged, unattractive penis? I just don't know.

 

[CFC]

some people will not rest until they make circumcised guys feel inferior and ashamed.

I'm circumcised myself, and I don't feel anything I said is about making anyone feel "inferior" or "ashamed" - I might suggest that's your own projection and reaffirms the point I made in my post. But I am genuinely sorry if it makes you feel that way - you know that wasn't my intention if you know even 5% about the kind of person I am.

 

[mal3volent]

I guess it was just an overall response to everyone, Idk, I know you wouldn't want me to feel that way.

 

[CFC]

I guess it was just an overall response to everyone, Idk, I know you wouldn't want me to feel that way.

If it makes you feel any better, and to be completely honest, I really don't like the look of uncircumcised penises - at all. But when I think about stuff, I generally tend to take the "me" out of it and try to think from the POV of someone coming to a subject without any preconceived thoughts or feelings on the matter (which is, of course, a nonsense because we all have an inherent positionality and buried subconscious feelings, but still....)

 

[Flynnal]

But anything female related in the nether regions I would deem mutilation no matter what the excuse or belief.

This is what fucking gets me...every single time without fail. Somehow females have absolute sanctity, in every aspect, but a male needs to be "doctored" to fit in. What a fucking joke. If this doesn't make anyone feel pathetic I don't know what would.

I have deep respect for people...until they subject a child to unnecessary genital cutting. It's disgusting. I don't care if people get themselves cut, that's fine, but just don't do it to a child. They can decide when or if they want to undergo surgery. Everyone here talks about science, what a fucking JOKE. It's made up fucking bullshit junk science used to justify a pro-circumcision agenda.

I wish those people who defend abortion rights would just sit back and really fucking think about the shit that they fucking spew. It's NOT your body and it's NOT your choice.

You wouldn't tell a woman what to do, so why are you OK with someone forcing their sexual aesthetics onto a fucking child? It's not just as bad, it's 1000 times worse. Get real.

 

[Flynnal]

It seems to me that some people will not rest until they make circumcised guys feel inferior and ashamed.

Body shame isn't something I would stoop to. I would never make anyone feel ashamed or inferior. But if they forced it onto a fucking child then yes, I would absolutely make them feel bad about it because they deserve to feel bad about forcing their own sexual aesthetics or preferences onto a defenseless baby. It sickens me and makes me question whether life is worth bothering with, because I know that there are too many arseholes out there sexually attacking infants. It's literally the worst form of abuse you can think of. And if someone thinks that it's any worse for women, let me assure you, there are plenty of cases of FGM that are no worse than male circumcision. In most cases they don't cut anywhere near the clitoris. It's still abuse because it's genital cutting.

No one gets to fucking CHOOSE what happens to the sex organs of a fucking CHILD.

If you're pro-choice on abortion it should make the decision easy - leave babies alone. It's not your body it's not your prerogative. THEY will decide what their genitals look and function like, not someone else.

 

[CFC]

This is what fucking gets me...every single time without fail. Somehow females have absolute sanctity, in every aspect, but a male needs to be "doctored" to fit in. What a fucking joke. If this doesn't make anyone feel pathetic I don't know what would.

I have deep respect for people...until they subject a child to unnecessary genital cutting. It's disgusting. I don't care if people get themselves cut, that's fine, but just don't do it to a child. They can decide when or if they want to undergo surgery. Everyone here talks about science, what a fucking JOKE. It's made up fucking bullshit junk science used to justify a pro-circumcision agenda.

I wish those people who defend abortion rights would just sit back and really fucking think about the shit that they fucking spew. It's NOT your body and it's NOT your choice.

You wouldn't tell a woman what to do, so why are you OK with someone forcing their sexual aesthetics onto a fucking child? It's not just as bad, it's 1000 times worse. Get real.

Body shame isn't something I would stoop to. I would never make anyone feel ashamed or inferior. But if they forced it onto a fucking child then yes, I would absolutely make them feel bad about it because they deserve to feel bad about forcing their own sexual aesthetics or preferences onto a defenseless baby. It sickens me and makes me question whether life is worth bothering with, because I know that there are too many arseholes out there sexually attacking infants. It's literally the worst form of abuse you can think of. And if someone thinks that it's any worse for women, let me assure you, there are plenty of cases of FGM that are no worse than male circumcision. In most cases they don't cut anywhere near the clitoris. It's still abuse because it's genital cutting.

No one gets to fucking CHOOSE what happens to the sex organs of a fucking CHILD.

If you're pro-choice on abortion it should make the decision easy - leave babies alone. It's not your body it's not your prerogative. THEY will decide what their genitals look and function like, not someone else.

Calm down mate, no need to get so worked up. I know you didn't type all that in CAPS, but I feel like you're shouting it out at us in caps as an angry spiel anyway.

Many people are not deeply informed on subjects like circumcision, all the ins-and-outs, especially many new and young parents. Thus if, in your own culture, it's considered 'normal' to undergo a certain procedure, then that in itself can often explain why things like circumcision carry on without much controversy.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It's literally the worst form of abuse you can think of..

Really? The news is full of stories of child abuse and exploitation that seem significantly worse than circumcision. Like rape for example.

As a pre-pubescent child I was forced to give blowjobs which I feel damaged me far more than the genital enhancement I received as a baby.

 

[TheInvisibleStoner]

But its not sexual ethics. You are acting like you are making your son a eunuch and he will be fucked. Getting your son snipped won't even be something he will think about.

 

[Fiori di Bella]

It sickens me and makes me question whether life is worth bothering with, because I know that there are too many arseholes out there sexually attacking infants.

This is a really disturbing statement on so many levels.

 

[Flynnal]

This is a really disturbing statement on so many levels.

You wanted the truth, didn't you?

Did you see my private message, did I explain everything to you as much as I possibly could given how distressed I was by your dismissal of the issue at hand?

 

[Flynnal]

As a pre-pubescent child I was forced to give blowjobs which I feel damaged me far more than the genital enhancement I received as a baby.

Have you spoken to a therapist about this? This is absolutely way beyond fucked up. I can't believe there are people out there who think children are sex objects...but I can't ignore the fact that there are...and they're probably everywhere you go. I would have killed someone if they'd put me through something like that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You wanted the truth, didn't you?

Did you see my private message, did I explain everything to you as much as I possibly could given how distressed I was by your dismissal of the issue at hand?

I’m not sure there is a rule against it in the BLUA but histrionically playing the “I’m so distressed I might just kill myself cause life is just not worth living card” when you have a disagreement of opinion with someone is pretty bad form.

There are two sides to this debate and both have legitimate points to make. Both on BL and in society more broadly.

While this debate about circumcision has been pleasingly vibrant, the pro-circumcision side has remained well within the bounds of acceptable speech. Particularly in their attempts to argue based on science rather than emotion. Although, we should accept and respect that the anti-circumcision people are emotionally invested in the topic.

However, anyone feeling unsafe as a result of reading these arguments should exercise some adult-level self-care and remove themselves from the debate unless they can demonstrate that a contributor from the other side of the argument has violated the BLUA.

When the BLUA has not been broken, i believe the onus is on the offended party to either harden up or give up. Although, it would not hurt for those on the winning side to be gracious in victory (I include myself in this advice).

It seems we have reached a stalemate in the debate with both sides having laid out all their arguments and marshalled whatever facts they have in support of their claims. There does not seem to be much point in continuing unless one side or the other finds further data or research to back their claims.

 

[Flynnal]

I can’t help thinking that a lot of this negativity towards circumcision is actually coming from guys who are uncut and are suffering a degree of resentement about maybe having a lesser quality appendage

Not at all. I don't resent my mother for defending my genitals from what my father wanted. While I understand why my dad wanted me done, I don't care to be honest. My mother was right in saying that it was cruel. That's all my dad told me. My mother died when I was 12.

Again, your story about being forced to perform sexual acts REALLY caught me off guard. I hope you got lots of help for that...that's unimaginable. I was molested too, at the age of 9 by a complete stranger, on two occasions two weeks apart from each other. Then she disappeared forever, never to be seen again. She bought me lollies and chocolates, and then I was taken up the back behind the reserve and asked to do all sorts of fucked up shit. I have never forgotten it, but I did initially think it was nothing, then I later found out that it was abuse, because I have autism spectrum disorder I didn't realise it was abuse, until I learned later on, then went into a depression because I realised I'd been used as a sex object. Female paedophiles do exist.

I have so much trauma behind me that sometimes it's hard to move on.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Have you spoken to a therapist about this?

Many therapists over the years. They unanimously pinpointed it as the cause of both my drug abuse and my inability to form lasting relationships with people.

40 years on I feel quite dispassionate about it. Although as a straight man I sometimes wonder what connection it might have with my untroubled willingness to suck the odd transwoman dick when very high on meth.

I did fantasise for a while about violent retribution but I’m too laid back for that kind of thing and contented myself with knowing I had a far more rewarding and successful life than the creeps who molested me.