Official Paedo Discussion Megathread v2

[charlie clean]

So, 1000+ posts later, what have we learned?

Jimmy Savile was an extremely active pedophile for some decades. Because of a combination of cunning, bluster, friends in high places and a ubiquitous celebrity culture, the story only broke after his death.

Other public figures engaged in child sex during the 70s and 80s. A number of old codgers have been charged with 'historic' offenses, leaving us to guess if there were organized 'rings' or their activities continued into more recent times.

Other 70s and 80s celebs engaged in sexual congress with women much younger than themselves. More old codgers have been arrested over allegations they forced themselves on their victims.

Many names have been suggested as culprits on social media sites. Many policemen have met faded celebrities and many idle journalists left with egg on their faces and, in a few instances, redeployed elsewhere in the media jungle. Lord McAlpine has never stayed overnight in Exeter. No living politician has been implicated.

That's it. Great to live in a democracy where you can be sure misbehaviour by public figures can never escape the vigilance of a free media and independent judiciary, isn't it?

 

[effie]

^ That pretty much sums up my position on it all, pontifex. Made perfect sense to me.

I do sometimes wonder that if there was some way people with paedophilic urges could get non-judgemental help at an early stage rather than hiding it away, perhaps fewer would go on to act on their desires. It must be a lonely thing. Of course, no one in their right mind is going to admit to that.

I wonder how many people there are with a sexual attraction to children who act on it, vs those who keep it hidden and never do.

 

[Marmalade]

ethics and morality are twinned quite nicely when it comes to looking at the philosophy of politics, no?

the concept of equality is at the heart of politics, but is it broad enough a concept to involve the fundamentals involved with ethics?

[edit]
Maybe, when referring to, or trying to incorporate the concept of moral behaviour into a discussion on political philosophy, the concept of ethics is easier to be included than the term morality. They are similar, but not the same, yet are inherently about the same concerns.

Morality being one's own character and beliefs individually adopted, chosen, formed that we use to govern, justify and motivate our own behaviour, and ethics being the social philosophy involved with 'evaluating' the virtue of those morals ...

In order to form a sociological political standpoint on a topic, it's necessary to understand the spectrum of ethics involved, then take into account equality

 

[Albion]

I wonder how many people there are with a sexual attraction to children who act on it, vs those who keep it hidden and never do.

A show of hands, anyone?

 

[knock]

A show of hands, anyone?

I used to fancy 10-14 year olds. Does that count?

Admittedly I was 10ish at the time.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Sexual attraction has to be a two way thing and involve consent. I cannot pity the paedophile that ignores this any more than I could pity the rapist. Because like rape, paedophilia is not about sex as such but about underlying political themes of power relationships.

And I mean paedophilia. Not just child molestation. Molestation. What a word. The things we do to children.

 

[Marmalade]

Sexual attraction has to be a two way thing and involve consent. I cannot pity the paedophile that ignores this any more than I could pity the rapist. Because like rape, paedophilia is not about sex as such but about underlying political themes of power relationships.

And I mean paedophilia. Not just child molestation. Molestation. What a word. The things we do to children.

And if the predominant culture is one of rape and being able to act upon urges without repercussion?

 

[parttime crackhead]

Because like rape, paedophilia is not about sex as such but about underlying political themes of power relationships.

And I mean paedophilia. Not just child molestation. Molestation. What a word. The things we do to children.

You sure? I see it as just being attracted to a kid. Like, a paedo thinks "Mmmm, that little kid has sexy little legs" rather than "Mmmm, I am bigger & more powerful than that little kid, therefore I find it sexy". I don't see how power necessarily has to come into this. Of course I might be wrong because, as I said earlier, I have never been a paedophile.

Edit - Just to elaborate slightly on that. I don't find women attractive because I am more powerful than them, I find them attractive because, well, ehm, because... tits? Why does that have to be different for a paedo? Can't a paedo just find a child attractive because of... no tits?

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

@Marmz.

Ethics too though, is loaded with subjectivity. What is decent and honest to the minds of Christianity may come from a completely different starting point to what I might think is decent and honest.

I'm not interested in judgements for social control but I think we have to have judgements for social need. Our needs are political and start from a basis of everyone is born equal. Any infringement of that equality, abuse of power, to the severe detriment of another individual, is therefore a political act of wrongdoing.

Ethics, implying decency, is just not the same thing. Because you have decency, you have implied indecency. And then you can start criticising pornography as indecent and ban it. Not because it involves some imbalance of power like a rape, but just because Christians are offended by erect cocks.

My moral code doesn't lead down that road.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

And if the predominant culture is one of rape and being able to act upon urges without repercussion?

Then we'd be at a different stage of evolution and probably not having this discussion on the Internet Marmz.

 

[Shambles]

When the age of consent was 10 in the UK were Brits paedophiles? It was legally acceptable to have sex with a 10yo but was it morally or ethically acceptable? No for the the reasons SHM mentions - imbalance of power, inability to give informed consent. The word "morals" definitely has some highly undesirable baggage since the GodSquad decided it was purely their territory but even if you don't like the word you still use moral reasoning whether you like it or not.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

You find women attractive because of tits PT? No conditioning going on there then. Believe it or not, a lot of people find other people attractive because of the way they are. Really simple like. Even simpler than tits. And this is most usually thought some common bond they find, real or imagined at the time.

So yeah, these paedos find a common bond with the lower school child through an interest in basic math. I get it now.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

You say moral, I say political. 6 of one 12 of the other.

 

[parttime crackhead]

I didn't even consider attaching any sort of religious connotation to the word "morals" & didn't think anyone tied religion to morality (other than religious nutters of course) until someone mentioned it. I suspect I have the same definition of morals as Shambles does, just a basic intrinsic sense of "right or wrong".

You find women attractive because of tits PT? No conditioning going on there then. Believe it or not, a lot of people find other people attractive because of the way they are. Really simple like. Even simpler than tits. And this is most usually thought some common bond they find, real or imagined at the time.

So yeah, these paedos find a common bond with the lower school child through an interest in basic math. I get it now.

I was adding a bit of a lighthearted remark to what is a bit of a heavy subject. I wasn't entirely serious with the tits comment. I simply meant that I find women attractive because I just do, can't that be the same for paedos with kids? Without any sort of power thing coming into it?

I often find women attractive without knowing if there is any sort of "common bond" or whatever, just a straight up, animalistic, natural urge to slap my dick out & wave it at them.

 

[Shambles]

You say moral, I say political. 6 of one 12 of the other.

Wiki more or less concurs...

If morality is the answer to the question 'how ought we to live' at the individual level, politics can be seen as addressing the same question at the social level.

Handy thing about cliques of two is that any potential schisms are somewhat limited in scope.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

I have said many times there are obvious grey areas in this but I think that if you, anyone, the paedophile, is sexually attracted only to those that cannot offer consent then they need to examine their belief system.

And yeah, good to see Wikipedia pulling the clique through this ethical minefield Shammy.

 

[Marmalade]

@Marmz.

Ethics too though, is loaded with subjectivity. What is decent and honest to the minds of Christianity may come from a completely different starting point to what I might think is decent and honest.

I'm not interested in judgements for social control but I think we have to have judgements for social need. Our needs are political and start from a basis of everyone is born equal. Any infringement of that equality, abuse of power, to the severe detriment of another individual, is therefore a political act of wrongdoing.

Ethics, implying decency, is just not the same thing. Because you have decency, you have implied indecency. And then you can start criticising pornography as indecent and ban it. Not because it involves some imbalance of power like a rape, but just because Christians are offended by erect cocks.

My moral code doesn't lead down that road.

According to Tomas Paul and Linda Elder of the Foundation for Critical Thinking, "most people confuse ethics with behaving in accordance with social conventions, religious beliefs, and the law", and don't treat ethics as a stand-alone concept.[2] Paul and Elder define ethics as "a set of concepts and principles that guide us in determining what behavior helps or harms sentient creatures

I would consider the last part in bold a social need.

To evaluate infringement of equality, and the scope of areas and complexities that are presented within in that concept, I believe the part in bold (in the above quote) MUST be considered during that evaluation.

The term ethics has multiple branches and meaning, but the above quote is specific to what I believe can be included in evaluating equality. [edit] It can be separated from religion.

 

[Marmalade]

Then we'd be at a different stage of evolution and probably not having this discussion on the Internet Marmz.

only 10% of rapes in the UK get a conviction. Many are not even reported. I'm not sure that we're far off really.

I'm just glad I don't live in Somalia

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Pontifex - we all bow to conditioning. Vast proportions of our sexuality is created for us and we fall prey to this without even knowing it or acknowledging it most of the time. Were so individual you see, we thought all our own sexuality up for ourselves. But we're all playing out power trips, of differing magnitudes, whether we admit to it or not.

But it's differing magnitudes. Most of us acknowledge the limits we need to stick to to keep civilisation at least where it is today. So most of us don't rape, even though the opportunity through superiority (politically) is there for the male every day. And most of us don't have unbalanced sexual relationships with children. even though the opportunity is there, every day.

@ Marmz. Still say 6 of be 12 of the other. Behaviour that harms or doesn't harm sentient beings is political behaviour. To stay alive, to buy a slice of bread, is a political choice to me, not an ethical one.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

only 10% of rapes in the UK get a conviction. Many are not even reported. I'm not sure that we're far off really.

I'm just glad I don't live in Somalia

DRC is rape capital of the world isn't it?