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Travel The MEGA Travel Thread!
- Thread starter Jamshyd
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rachamim
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Jam: Race only exists as an Anthropological construct. In terms of biology it does not exist.
As for not finding a "race" attractive, you are no more racist than any person who likes blue eyes over another colour. Far too many people misuse the word "bias" (including myself in casual conversation). We are ALL inherently biased in one regard or another.
Now, if you say it like, "Damn! Why can there not be 1 half way decent looking Thai guy?" it takes on a different sheen.
But it still has more to do with the perceptions held by the person you are expressing that to.
Ximot: "Girls in Japan...": It is like that in some places...I find it that way in many parts of the Philippines, especially in rural places. In Cambodia it is the direct opposite really, unless you go out into the bush but even there it is more of a gentle curiosity and not something of a sexual nature.
Is it another form of "racism?" Of course but I have never met 1 male complaining about being "victimised" by it hahaha.
Ximot: Any time you meet an Israeli male in his 20s, in Asia, from India all points eastward he has just spent the last 36 months (some quite a bit more, in my first time it was just about 7 years) in actual kill or be killed, because rarely will non-combat personnel go on what we call, in English, "Walkabout."
We do not have barracks, we live at best, in tents, we eat kosher spam (good old Loof), and dream of what we will do when it is over.
We serve BEFORE university, and it is mandatory. So, when you see those Israelis you mentioned, picture you when you were 17 or 18 IF you had possibly killed 2 or 3 people and seen a mate get his cranium peeled.
Then you get out after 3 years, IF you are lucky. In 10 months you have to report back for a month of service, and then onto 4 years schooling while people in other countries have just bought their second car, 1st house and celebrating a wedding.
You get to say Goa or Phuket and you get some Westerner whining about lack of amenities, bad service, or too much rain...Wonder how YOU would take it?
Do you know what Israelis call one another? Sabra. It is a fruit like a cactus fruit, very prickly on the outside, yet sweet and nice on the inside. We are are not rough because we prefer it, but it is the world we live in.
As for not finding a "race" attractive, you are no more racist than any person who likes blue eyes over another colour. Far too many people misuse the word "bias" (including myself in casual conversation). We are ALL inherently biased in one regard or another.
Now, if you say it like, "Damn! Why can there not be 1 half way decent looking Thai guy?" it takes on a different sheen.
But it still has more to do with the perceptions held by the person you are expressing that to.
Ximot: "Girls in Japan...": It is like that in some places...I find it that way in many parts of the Philippines, especially in rural places. In Cambodia it is the direct opposite really, unless you go out into the bush but even there it is more of a gentle curiosity and not something of a sexual nature.
Is it another form of "racism?" Of course but I have never met 1 male complaining about being "victimised" by it hahaha.
Ximot: Any time you meet an Israeli male in his 20s, in Asia, from India all points eastward he has just spent the last 36 months (some quite a bit more, in my first time it was just about 7 years) in actual kill or be killed, because rarely will non-combat personnel go on what we call, in English, "Walkabout."
We do not have barracks, we live at best, in tents, we eat kosher spam (good old Loof), and dream of what we will do when it is over.
We serve BEFORE university, and it is mandatory. So, when you see those Israelis you mentioned, picture you when you were 17 or 18 IF you had possibly killed 2 or 3 people and seen a mate get his cranium peeled.
Then you get out after 3 years, IF you are lucky. In 10 months you have to report back for a month of service, and then onto 4 years schooling while people in other countries have just bought their second car, 1st house and celebrating a wedding.
You get to say Goa or Phuket and you get some Westerner whining about lack of amenities, bad service, or too much rain...Wonder how YOU would take it?
Do you know what Israelis call one another? Sabra. It is a fruit like a cactus fruit, very prickly on the outside, yet sweet and nice on the inside. We are are not rough because we prefer it, but it is the world we live in.
rachamim
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Ximot: "Ximot wants to go to a place where the people living there are not innundated with visitors...Where they are genuinely excited and curious over meeting you.": I have never used a guidebook in my life, nor would I. It is like laying a pile of money on some 4 night/5 day excursion where every minute of every waking hour is planned in advance for you. When you do such things you come away with photos and gifts for vicarious travellers but having really not gotten on iota out of the deal for yourself.
My big thing is wishing that I had lived 150 years ago. Today, there is no realisitic place on the planet where you will be able to say that you were the first.
When I first got out of my Active Duty in the very early 90s I took my Walkabout in Thailand. A mate and I trekked, without visas, through Burma and up into Yunnan. He actually wanted to try and walk up the length of Yunnan to sneak into Tibet. In those first post-Tianemman Square days it would no doubt have been a messy picture. Then again, crossing through Shan and then Chin held lands in Burma only to sneak into Yunnan illegaly...AND then going back was not the brightest idea I have ever had...
The point to all this? Even in that shi*hole town of Mu-se in Burma I saw Westerners and I saw Euro-Hippies. On Mindanao I live amidst 8 armed insurrections, have Check Points every few klicks and yet I can find American Mormon Missionaries trying to strong arm tribals into the pews!
There is a disgusting (yet again) American in Indonesia who is charging 10K US for a guided "First Contact Tour." He escorts gaggles of well heeled Abercrombie and Fitch ingrates for 10 days in Irin Jaya where he tries his darndest to culturally rape untold numbers of "Stone Aged Tribes," and perhaps just as sad, he can be exterminating entire unmapped cultures simply by spreading a common cold.
G-Dess: Both Goa and "Full Moon Parties," a la Phuket are nothing more than ripoffs today, with the added bonus of getting shaken down by cops who partner with motodops and guides. The place for THAT kind of party, for a tiny bit of time anyway, is off of Cambodia.
In Phuket now they like to stand by the ferry landing getting urines on demand though mine is not 1st hand info. Since my last time in Thailand (14 months ago) I was only in BK and Aran. I do have plenty of friends who bother with it and it is just getting worse and worse.
By the time that American movie with DiCaprio came out the Thai coast was already worn thin.
(Edited for spelling and to erase those fuc*ing smiley faces)
My big thing is wishing that I had lived 150 years ago. Today, there is no realisitic place on the planet where you will be able to say that you were the first.
When I first got out of my Active Duty in the very early 90s I took my Walkabout in Thailand. A mate and I trekked, without visas, through Burma and up into Yunnan. He actually wanted to try and walk up the length of Yunnan to sneak into Tibet. In those first post-Tianemman Square days it would no doubt have been a messy picture. Then again, crossing through Shan and then Chin held lands in Burma only to sneak into Yunnan illegaly...AND then going back was not the brightest idea I have ever had...
The point to all this? Even in that shi*hole town of Mu-se in Burma I saw Westerners and I saw Euro-Hippies. On Mindanao I live amidst 8 armed insurrections, have Check Points every few klicks and yet I can find American Mormon Missionaries trying to strong arm tribals into the pews!
There is a disgusting (yet again) American in Indonesia who is charging 10K US for a guided "First Contact Tour." He escorts gaggles of well heeled Abercrombie and Fitch ingrates for 10 days in Irin Jaya where he tries his darndest to culturally rape untold numbers of "Stone Aged Tribes," and perhaps just as sad, he can be exterminating entire unmapped cultures simply by spreading a common cold.
G-Dess: Both Goa and "Full Moon Parties," a la Phuket are nothing more than ripoffs today, with the added bonus of getting shaken down by cops who partner with motodops and guides. The place for THAT kind of party, for a tiny bit of time anyway, is off of Cambodia.
In Phuket now they like to stand by the ferry landing getting urines on demand though mine is not 1st hand info. Since my last time in Thailand (14 months ago) I was only in BK and Aran. I do have plenty of friends who bother with it and it is just getting worse and worse.
By the time that American movie with DiCaprio came out the Thai coast was already worn thin.
(Edited for spelling and to erase those fuc*ing smiley faces)
Last edited:
Ximot
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rachamin: You have give me reasons for the behaviour I hinted at but no excuses, because I believe there aren't any. Still, point taken. I shall do my best not to judge but find that I have failed in the past. And it sure is true what you say about us "westerners" - most of us are spoilt rotten to the core...
MyDoorsAreOpen
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Oh wow -- you're the only other person I've ever heard mention this city.
I made my way by overnight sleeper bus, over some very cold mountain passes, from Kunming to Ruili in 2002. The Sino-Burmese border looked very easy to sneak across -- no more than a couple lines of barbed wire that could easily be bent down and stepped over.
The city of Muse actually looked pretty fascinating to me. Certainly a whole other world away from China. Over the border, I stared at dilapidated but grand-looking white wooden buildings, and old men with long white beards in sarongs, with Buddhist stupas sprinkled around. It reminded me a little of rural Russia, except tropical: a place time had left behind.
I almost wish I'd had the balls to really sneak across, even if only for a day. However, I was sharply warned not to, because apparently the city of Muse was off-limits to foreigners in 2002. I was told that if any authorities saw me there, I'd be frisked for paperwork, and summarily jailed, extorted, and deported. There was practically no one crossing at the official checkpoint.
Have things changed since then? How did you get to northern Burma -- via Thailand, or via China?
rachamim
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MyDoor: I actually went in 92, almost 93 during my first time in SE Asia. Like all people in IDF combat elements I did almost a year in SE Asia (though now many are beginning to do the Pan-American Hiway thing).
We lived in a rented flat in Chiang Mai, then we stayed with this bloke we met up there. His uncle was what they call a "Dattaw," what the call a "Commune Chief" in Cambodia, a municipal leader type thing they have, and the guy convinced us to stay with them in Tak Province, in Thialnd, a place called Mae Sot.
So in Mae Sot, which back then (do not really know now) was really wild, we met this kid, well must of been our age but he seemed like a kid to us, and we ended up sitting around a tiny village called Moo # 6, like a squatter camp of Chin.
Chin, they call them Kachin in Thailand, and Jingpo in China, are one of those tribes who do not pay attention to borders. Easy for them, but I happen to look Irish and certainly do not look SE Asian. My mate Nissim is brown, but like me an Israeli Jew and we both stood out.
This kid that was always trying to make abuck finally conviced us to trek with him.
Then, like now, you could get rich on stones. I was walking around in an opiated fog having caught a morphine habit in the army, so I was oblivious but my mate was thinking (like a fool) of turning some dollars with jadite, which is a Burmese commodity.
We simply walked along the Moei River, which ran along the edge of Moo #6, and found one of those men with an innertube and a rope.
They string up a hemp rope, attach a loop through the inner tube and with a second thinner hemp rope, pull the tube to and fro across the river, except in the rougher part of Monsoon. They say you can walk across in dry season when it is less than a meter high but I never saw it.
Friendship Bridge (there are many between Burma and Thailand, and for that matter, Laos and Thailand as well on the other end ) was within sight but it was wide open, a mad house of local people going to and fro.
In those days it was still run by the the kingpins, the guys moving tonnes of heroin, like Khun Sa, not like now. So, we made it to some Burmese cluster of shacks controlled by the KNU (Karen Tribe, the Christian tribes, not the Karen Buddhists). The main town, the one that Friendship Bridge goes into, Mywaddee was run by their enemies, the KBA (Karen Buddhists, who were aligned with SLORC, the Burmese Govt).
At the present you can go to Mywaddee with a day pass as a tourist, Westerners do it in a huge way (but no further than city limits on that stretch of the border last I hear). Then though, it was a no-go. It was smuggler's paradise but foreigners were killed because of SLORC paranoia.
Anyway, we trekked along foot paths through all kinds of crap. We had to hide ALOT, then when it was best to move, at night, that kid was terrified of animals and whatever else.The smugglers were highly organised and moved in daylight, using mules, elephants, whatever. Maybe he was scared of guerillas/gunmen, or maybe spirits.
We spent 2 long shi**y days making our way relatively north, but meandering points west as we went. In some Chin villages we stopped to buy sticky rice, that was about it, though he had some rat curry in one place. We had to usually wait outside the villages to avoid snitches.
We skirted Kokang land, crossed a swatch of Shan, and voila, in the middle of the 3rd morning we were on the river at Yunnan.
Burma and China had opened Ruili a bit before we went but we went up the river. Jiang was not even officialy a village then. We crossed into a Jingpo/Chin village where everyone tried to sell us crap, and that was it. We slept in some farmers hut, and at 2 AM we set out to go back to Thailand.
Going back we went on the east side and southern edges of Mu-se. We had to be real careful around Ruili, they probablly would have shook us down for a huge bribe which we did not have, and in that case we can only guess on what they would do next, but in Mu-se the people running it actually were happy to see us. That shi*hole had alot of Hippies, I could not understand it
Here everyone was talking about SLORC shooting on sight and here we were passing what seemed to be a disco, looked a bit like Poi Pet it did, though no tall buildings like Poi Pet has now. The Las Vegas gaudiness was all there for sure.
We skirted Mu-se and made good time going down country. We left Thailand beofre sunup on a Monday and by late Friday afternoon was nodding off back in Mae Sot. Surely one of the stupider things I have done.
The funny part is that though the next year was very bloody, mates of mine were in and out all through the years between then and now. They say Ruili first burst open and is now utterly boring again. Funny how things change so fast there.
You were talking about the fence in Ruili... Well, have not done it myself but in Jiegang on up to the county line, there are only 3 official crossings, and yet everywhere but Ruili can be freely crossed any time of day. Some of the Chin villages are built directly on the line so you can be sitting in China and eating in Burma.
Me? I am probablly going back in 3 or 4 weeks, depending, on my way back to Mindanao. I will go Hong Kong, Kumming and do the over night by bus crap (they say now the Check Points are only going towards Ruili so it should be very fast.
I would love to spend months there but as far as I know, the only way I could do that would be to teach and I will not do it. I think I can only wrangle a 30 Day Visa as is, though maybe longer with my Israeli passport, I will have to see. WAIT! Burma loves Israel (do not ask), maybe I can do it that way, from Mu-se or Kokang (Kokang is one area I want to see badly).
Crossing officialy from Yunnan is impossible on a US Passport, as far as I know, but I will check for the Israeli, an unusual trip would be good. Or, I could do it via Rangoon (Yangon), pull strings with the embassy. There is even a small Jewish Community in Rangoon though I think the one in Mandalay as gone extinct.
(Edited for spelling)
We lived in a rented flat in Chiang Mai, then we stayed with this bloke we met up there. His uncle was what they call a "Dattaw," what the call a "Commune Chief" in Cambodia, a municipal leader type thing they have, and the guy convinced us to stay with them in Tak Province, in Thialnd, a place called Mae Sot.
So in Mae Sot, which back then (do not really know now) was really wild, we met this kid, well must of been our age but he seemed like a kid to us, and we ended up sitting around a tiny village called Moo # 6, like a squatter camp of Chin.
Chin, they call them Kachin in Thailand, and Jingpo in China, are one of those tribes who do not pay attention to borders. Easy for them, but I happen to look Irish and certainly do not look SE Asian. My mate Nissim is brown, but like me an Israeli Jew and we both stood out.
This kid that was always trying to make abuck finally conviced us to trek with him.
Then, like now, you could get rich on stones. I was walking around in an opiated fog having caught a morphine habit in the army, so I was oblivious but my mate was thinking (like a fool) of turning some dollars with jadite, which is a Burmese commodity.
We simply walked along the Moei River, which ran along the edge of Moo #6, and found one of those men with an innertube and a rope.
They string up a hemp rope, attach a loop through the inner tube and with a second thinner hemp rope, pull the tube to and fro across the river, except in the rougher part of Monsoon. They say you can walk across in dry season when it is less than a meter high but I never saw it.
Friendship Bridge (there are many between Burma and Thailand, and for that matter, Laos and Thailand as well on the other end ) was within sight but it was wide open, a mad house of local people going to and fro.
In those days it was still run by the the kingpins, the guys moving tonnes of heroin, like Khun Sa, not like now. So, we made it to some Burmese cluster of shacks controlled by the KNU (Karen Tribe, the Christian tribes, not the Karen Buddhists). The main town, the one that Friendship Bridge goes into, Mywaddee was run by their enemies, the KBA (Karen Buddhists, who were aligned with SLORC, the Burmese Govt).
At the present you can go to Mywaddee with a day pass as a tourist, Westerners do it in a huge way (but no further than city limits on that stretch of the border last I hear). Then though, it was a no-go. It was smuggler's paradise but foreigners were killed because of SLORC paranoia.
Anyway, we trekked along foot paths through all kinds of crap. We had to hide ALOT, then when it was best to move, at night, that kid was terrified of animals and whatever else.The smugglers were highly organised and moved in daylight, using mules, elephants, whatever. Maybe he was scared of guerillas/gunmen, or maybe spirits.
We spent 2 long shi**y days making our way relatively north, but meandering points west as we went. In some Chin villages we stopped to buy sticky rice, that was about it, though he had some rat curry in one place. We had to usually wait outside the villages to avoid snitches.
We skirted Kokang land, crossed a swatch of Shan, and voila, in the middle of the 3rd morning we were on the river at Yunnan.
Burma and China had opened Ruili a bit before we went but we went up the river. Jiang was not even officialy a village then. We crossed into a Jingpo/Chin village where everyone tried to sell us crap, and that was it. We slept in some farmers hut, and at 2 AM we set out to go back to Thailand.
Going back we went on the east side and southern edges of Mu-se. We had to be real careful around Ruili, they probablly would have shook us down for a huge bribe which we did not have, and in that case we can only guess on what they would do next, but in Mu-se the people running it actually were happy to see us. That shi*hole had alot of Hippies, I could not understand it
Here everyone was talking about SLORC shooting on sight and here we were passing what seemed to be a disco, looked a bit like Poi Pet it did, though no tall buildings like Poi Pet has now. The Las Vegas gaudiness was all there for sure.
We skirted Mu-se and made good time going down country. We left Thailand beofre sunup on a Monday and by late Friday afternoon was nodding off back in Mae Sot. Surely one of the stupider things I have done.
The funny part is that though the next year was very bloody, mates of mine were in and out all through the years between then and now. They say Ruili first burst open and is now utterly boring again. Funny how things change so fast there.
You were talking about the fence in Ruili... Well, have not done it myself but in Jiegang on up to the county line, there are only 3 official crossings, and yet everywhere but Ruili can be freely crossed any time of day. Some of the Chin villages are built directly on the line so you can be sitting in China and eating in Burma.
Me? I am probablly going back in 3 or 4 weeks, depending, on my way back to Mindanao. I will go Hong Kong, Kumming and do the over night by bus crap (they say now the Check Points are only going towards Ruili so it should be very fast.
I would love to spend months there but as far as I know, the only way I could do that would be to teach and I will not do it. I think I can only wrangle a 30 Day Visa as is, though maybe longer with my Israeli passport, I will have to see. WAIT! Burma loves Israel (do not ask), maybe I can do it that way, from Mu-se or Kokang (Kokang is one area I want to see badly).
Crossing officialy from Yunnan is impossible on a US Passport, as far as I know, but I will check for the Israeli, an unusual trip would be good. Or, I could do it via Rangoon (Yangon), pull strings with the embassy. There is even a small Jewish Community in Rangoon though I think the one in Mandalay as gone extinct.
(Edited for spelling)
Last edited:
GoddessLSD-XTC
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Burma is a military dictatorship, no wonder they love Israel . . . prolly has to do with military advise, riot-control etc.
The_Idler
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Well I hope I'll still be able to do those things rach described, by the time i get enough money!
Taking the risks is half the fun!
That's why I reckon western society makes so many people go crazy (yaknow, 50%+ of people can't cope properly with their lives, let alone consider the problems of our world).
Safety and monotony are anathema to all that portion of our being, which has made us successful so far, our daring curiosity.
That, which defines us as humans, no less.
Taking the risks is half the fun!
That's why I reckon western society makes so many people go crazy (yaknow, 50%+ of people can't cope properly with their lives, let alone consider the problems of our world).
Safety and monotony are anathema to all that portion of our being, which has made us successful so far, our daring curiosity.
That, which defines us as humans, no less.
agreed dude!
rachamim
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Spade: Burma loves Israel because when SLORC (the acronym for the ruling junta of Burma) came to power they were very much trying to take a Marxist path independant of anything here-to-fore.
Israel was founded by socialists who were once removed from communists, indeed we had out first national crisis over whether to support North OR South Korea.
SLORC respected the fact that we were able to achieve what is usually considered the finest/truest example of pure communism via the United Kibbutz Movement, and yet remain outside the traditional Soviet orbit.
The ideological respect blossomed into a militart relationship where we have Advised, and to a degree armed SLORC.
Laos also loves Israel and indeed, I always travel on my Israeli passport to Laos because it negates the need for a visa there.
Idler: You know, travelling really does not require a whole lot of money, especially now when tickets have never been cheaper between the West and SE Asia.
You could easily live in Cambodia for a year on 2000 USD (if you did not do drugs, etc., plus airfare). A person can have a month in SE Asia, including airfare, etc. for alot less than 2000.
Israel was founded by socialists who were once removed from communists, indeed we had out first national crisis over whether to support North OR South Korea.
SLORC respected the fact that we were able to achieve what is usually considered the finest/truest example of pure communism via the United Kibbutz Movement, and yet remain outside the traditional Soviet orbit.
The ideological respect blossomed into a militart relationship where we have Advised, and to a degree armed SLORC.
Laos also loves Israel and indeed, I always travel on my Israeli passport to Laos because it negates the need for a visa there.
Idler: You know, travelling really does not require a whole lot of money, especially now when tickets have never been cheaper between the West and SE Asia.
You could easily live in Cambodia for a year on 2000 USD (if you did not do drugs, etc., plus airfare). A person can have a month in SE Asia, including airfare, etc. for alot less than 2000.
The_Idler
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Yeah i know, but i just finished school last Thursday.
Hopefully i'll be able to take a trip within the next year, if i get a good enough full time job and teach myself a maths A level.
Then, next september, I'm going to university. I'm planning to get a degree, so then I can travel and take a few risks, maybe get a "good" job in a non-western country, and if I really end up with no hope for work and no money, I can just go to canada or germany or japan or even back to England and get some boring job starting on 40k. Save up a stake, disappear again, etc.
also, that was some interesting information about israel's relations with SE Asian nations....
Ximot
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I didn't think Israeli travellers were all that welcome... can't blame the Thais for the disdain they seem to feel towards them. And regardless of what the reasons for their often reckless rude behaviour might be - they're reasons but no excuses.
Another thing is the negative feelings towards US citizens that I seem to have observed in Lao people (and i suppose it could be similar in Vietnam and Cambodia) ... for obvious reasons, the Vietnam war is a recent thing by all accounts. And the USA and Isreal are really good chums... so I wonder how these nations really feel about Isreal.
Another thing is the negative feelings towards US citizens that I seem to have observed in Lao people (and i suppose it could be similar in Vietnam and Cambodia) ... for obvious reasons, the Vietnam war is a recent thing by all accounts. And the USA and Isreal are really good chums... so I wonder how these nations really feel about Isreal.
Jamshyd
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The Thai think they're superior to everyone of course, all the while having no idea where Israel is. And as for Israelis... most of them have money, and that's the only thing Thais really care about. In fact, it seems to me that a whole section of Th. Rambutri in bkk is devoted to Israelis.
rachamim
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Ximot: "Israelis not welcome...": In SE Asia? Not at all true. We are loved by the people fo those countries, usually, because when we come it is for months at a time usually, and we do not need amenities. Imagine you own some crappy Guest House with a hole for a loo, and no tissue paper. Israelis are fine with it, but take a Westerner and WATCH OUT.
In Thailand the govt. is fine with us, though police are hard on us because, well because Israelis tend to make money and one way we do that is by moving drugs (only a minority of us, but in a noticeable way. When an Israeli gets caught in BK it is not with 4 tabs of Yaa Baa or a piece of cannabis. I think the last noticeable takedown on Sao Rd in BK involved 11 kilos of MDMA tabbed up, they took everyone with an Israeli passport and held them overnight, ending up with 2 men just out of the IDF wearing the charges).
But, that is the only nation in E. Asia that has any kind of problem with us. We come, we come with cash, we spend, and we do so for months.
"Rudeness.": Excuses? Well, difficult to say because you have not been specific. What are you considering rude? A 21 year old Israeli walking through you as you stand dazed after catching a buzz? Or one that tells you to fuc* off when you or a mate complains about amenities? To me, I do not see that as "rudeness."
Look, life for a Westerner is not something many Israelis know or understand. Most have disdain for Westerners, and I have explained why that is. I think, that if you were 35 and spending time at a resort where 15 year olds whined about service that YOUR reaction to those whiners might very well be perceived by those younger people as "rudeness." It is all relative.
It is like going to Korea and calling folks rude because they will not smile as they sell you things. You have to remove cultural blinders, see it from the perspecrive of others.
As for Laos, been there quite often, same for Cambodia and Nam and not even Nam has a problem with Americans. In fact, I went to Nam, what used to be North Nam back in the early 90s during that first Walkabout I touched upon. Back then you could only enter as part of an approved tour, and though we had govt. Minders, which MAY have mitigated SOME reactions, people loved the tour group (I was with almost all Americans and Europeans).
People in East Asia tend to be very fatalistic, and while they call that war "The American War," they have moved way past it.
Now...as for the "US and Israel being chums," hahahaha. The US is not our friend and has never been even halfway friendly. It is in a strategic alliance with us, and if you pay attention you can now observe our nations moving in diametrically opposed orbits.
The US relationship with Israel only really took flight in 1973, and only began at all in 61, when the US had to APPEASE Israel over the nuclear issue (per Dimona Inspections).
Seeing as how Nam and the YS were finished by 73 it would be of no consequence. Most SE Asian countries have an attitude similar to Israel's. We do not care HOW you keep YOUR house, only how you will act when OUR house is on fire.
Laos though...They are banas for us. I can enter without a visa and have never heard of an Israeli even getting searched there. We are like the Teachers' Pets, in Burma as well though I am not personally happy about the latter.
Jam hit it dead on the head in the last post, money talks, BS walks. Americans, coming from the richest nations can often be seen screaming in people's faces over what they imagine to be 10 Baht too much for a motodop! Go to Sao at 10 PM any night of the week and you will see Hebrew signs, our music, foods, etc. Remember also that Jews were trading AND living in this nations more than 2 millenia before America was founded. The cultural outlooks mesh very well
In Thailand the govt. is fine with us, though police are hard on us because, well because Israelis tend to make money and one way we do that is by moving drugs (only a minority of us, but in a noticeable way. When an Israeli gets caught in BK it is not with 4 tabs of Yaa Baa or a piece of cannabis. I think the last noticeable takedown on Sao Rd in BK involved 11 kilos of MDMA tabbed up, they took everyone with an Israeli passport and held them overnight, ending up with 2 men just out of the IDF wearing the charges).
But, that is the only nation in E. Asia that has any kind of problem with us. We come, we come with cash, we spend, and we do so for months.
"Rudeness.": Excuses? Well, difficult to say because you have not been specific. What are you considering rude? A 21 year old Israeli walking through you as you stand dazed after catching a buzz? Or one that tells you to fuc* off when you or a mate complains about amenities? To me, I do not see that as "rudeness."
Look, life for a Westerner is not something many Israelis know or understand. Most have disdain for Westerners, and I have explained why that is. I think, that if you were 35 and spending time at a resort where 15 year olds whined about service that YOUR reaction to those whiners might very well be perceived by those younger people as "rudeness." It is all relative.
It is like going to Korea and calling folks rude because they will not smile as they sell you things. You have to remove cultural blinders, see it from the perspecrive of others.
As for Laos, been there quite often, same for Cambodia and Nam and not even Nam has a problem with Americans. In fact, I went to Nam, what used to be North Nam back in the early 90s during that first Walkabout I touched upon. Back then you could only enter as part of an approved tour, and though we had govt. Minders, which MAY have mitigated SOME reactions, people loved the tour group (I was with almost all Americans and Europeans).
People in East Asia tend to be very fatalistic, and while they call that war "The American War," they have moved way past it.
Now...as for the "US and Israel being chums," hahahaha. The US is not our friend and has never been even halfway friendly. It is in a strategic alliance with us, and if you pay attention you can now observe our nations moving in diametrically opposed orbits.
The US relationship with Israel only really took flight in 1973, and only began at all in 61, when the US had to APPEASE Israel over the nuclear issue (per Dimona Inspections).
Seeing as how Nam and the YS were finished by 73 it would be of no consequence. Most SE Asian countries have an attitude similar to Israel's. We do not care HOW you keep YOUR house, only how you will act when OUR house is on fire.
Laos though...They are banas for us. I can enter without a visa and have never heard of an Israeli even getting searched there. We are like the Teachers' Pets, in Burma as well though I am not personally happy about the latter.
Jam hit it dead on the head in the last post, money talks, BS walks. Americans, coming from the richest nations can often be seen screaming in people's faces over what they imagine to be 10 Baht too much for a motodop! Go to Sao at 10 PM any night of the week and you will see Hebrew signs, our music, foods, etc. Remember also that Jews were trading AND living in this nations more than 2 millenia before America was founded. The cultural outlooks mesh very well
Ximot
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 3,446
Hmm... I freely admit I know not much, all I go by is limited personal experience whilse travelling in Asia. No doubt my own cultural blinders and thus my own cultural incompatibility are partly to blame for my (mis?)conceptions... and I am happy to learn more as I read on this forum and elsewhere, and also to extend my knowledge and experience and update my beliefs.
In any case it always felt to me like many Israelis just seem to treat Thai people like mere providers of service, in a very disrespectful, bossy way, looking down on them as if they (the Israelis) owned the place. Granted, many Westerners do this too, as we are also, by and large, an uncharming bunch. But much less so. One day a very friendly, gentle, and open-minded Israeli guy i had a chat with said: "I apologise for the behaviour of my fellow countrymen" or something of the sort.
Something I would consider rude under any circumstances bar panic or clumsiness is when a person pushes me out of the way in order to take my space, wherever that is, as if I didn't count for nought. This happened to me a few times... most notably in China (Beijing was horrible, especially the "new rich"... so disrespectful... by my cultural standards, I know) ... but also in Thailand a number of times - always by overbearing macho (and much more often than not) Israeli males whose vibe suggested they owned the fucking place, loved no one and were ready to mess with anyone messing with them. They would treat the poor Thai guy at the beach restaurant as if he was a slave... no please, no thank you... as if they were thinking "i give ye cash, that's enough, no need for politeness or respect"... totally ignoring the PERSON they're speaking to... as if they were compensating for all the shit they got during their years in the army, beign lashed out at for so long and now getting their own back, lashing out at the poor sod who is trying to get by, selling drinks to tourists for just a few baht or whatever. Knowing what you told me about their likely past experiences in the army and with all the bombings and that perma-tension going on and such, I try to understand where they are coming from - and yet i find that there is simply no excuse for such behaviour. I feel this a lot also in the KPN/Fullmoon/Goa/Psytrance scene... so many guys with egos so big the beach just isn't big enough to accommodate them all. We have much the same attitudinal/vibratory problem in my country in Europe, where there are many immigrants from former Yugoslavia, a territory that has known many years of civil war and bloodshed. Lots of guys from there who live here now have brought with them these vibes, they are violent, aggressive, etc... no wonder with what they have been through... even the police are afraid of them for they are tough. But of course they are not all like that, i know some who are gentle folks and all that...
When I feel such negative vibes - regardless of nationality or race or whatever - i cringe and do what i can to stay the f*ck away. Yikes. Sorry, but that HAD to come out.
About the Jews and the US government. You may think I am gullible for saying this now, but I do believe the conspiracy-theory accounts that suggest that in the 9/11 WTC disaster almost no Jews were killed because hardly any were in the towers on that day as they must have been informed by those in the know about what was about to happen . . .
And unless I am wrong, the Jewish community in the US is home to many of the wealthiest US citizens, and they are closely connected with the powers that be. These are all post-war (WW2) developments...
Googling just now, I found this interesting link on how Israeli citizens feel about the USA... Bush and Obama are really quite different... http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1245184872947
I do not really wish to take this further, it's so nothing to do with the purpose of the whole thread, nor do I wish to step on anyone's toes or foster any negative feelings toward any culture, nation or race.
let's all keep learning, and keep our minds as open as we can.
Back on thread-topic... About Thailand being less-than-friendly... yeah sure... I have only been going for 9 years and I know I probabyl missed out on the times when it was truly friendly... but I did see it go from ok to bad to worse..... no wonder, considerign how so many visitors treat the locals... visitors from all over the world, mainly the West. Many seem quite disrespectful, with vulgar displays of money, sex tourism, loud late-night drinking and singing... and no genuine interest in the country and its people or culture. beers'n'burgers'mediocre Western music galore... even in remote island paradises.. wtf... now that we have made the Thais so jaded and destroyed tha paradise that once was, seems that perhaps we will move on to newer, fresher, more innocent shores in order to do the whole thing again..... and the more numerous we becoem there the more decadent we will become and the more the locals - relying more and more heavily on the tourist dollar - will become jaded and treat us like the Thais seem to be doing now.
i did notice, in Thailand, that up North folks are way friendlier... in Bangkok I suppose the low end of Sukhimvit and KhaoSarn are among the worst, as are many places in Samui and pockets of Pha Ngan (the closer to Had Rin I go the more I can feel it). There is a hell of a lot of bottled-up anger in so many Thai males especially in the areas i mentioned, sometimes when many people gather in one place the air is so thick it feels like you could cut it with a knife...
(just my experience.. I welcome any constructive criticisms to my meanderings here)
In any case it always felt to me like many Israelis just seem to treat Thai people like mere providers of service, in a very disrespectful, bossy way, looking down on them as if they (the Israelis) owned the place. Granted, many Westerners do this too, as we are also, by and large, an uncharming bunch. But much less so. One day a very friendly, gentle, and open-minded Israeli guy i had a chat with said: "I apologise for the behaviour of my fellow countrymen" or something of the sort.
Something I would consider rude under any circumstances bar panic or clumsiness is when a person pushes me out of the way in order to take my space, wherever that is, as if I didn't count for nought. This happened to me a few times... most notably in China (Beijing was horrible, especially the "new rich"... so disrespectful... by my cultural standards, I know) ... but also in Thailand a number of times - always by overbearing macho (and much more often than not) Israeli males whose vibe suggested they owned the fucking place, loved no one and were ready to mess with anyone messing with them. They would treat the poor Thai guy at the beach restaurant as if he was a slave... no please, no thank you... as if they were thinking "i give ye cash, that's enough, no need for politeness or respect"... totally ignoring the PERSON they're speaking to... as if they were compensating for all the shit they got during their years in the army, beign lashed out at for so long and now getting their own back, lashing out at the poor sod who is trying to get by, selling drinks to tourists for just a few baht or whatever. Knowing what you told me about their likely past experiences in the army and with all the bombings and that perma-tension going on and such, I try to understand where they are coming from - and yet i find that there is simply no excuse for such behaviour. I feel this a lot also in the KPN/Fullmoon/Goa/Psytrance scene... so many guys with egos so big the beach just isn't big enough to accommodate them all. We have much the same attitudinal/vibratory problem in my country in Europe, where there are many immigrants from former Yugoslavia, a territory that has known many years of civil war and bloodshed. Lots of guys from there who live here now have brought with them these vibes, they are violent, aggressive, etc... no wonder with what they have been through... even the police are afraid of them for they are tough. But of course they are not all like that, i know some who are gentle folks and all that...
When I feel such negative vibes - regardless of nationality or race or whatever - i cringe and do what i can to stay the f*ck away. Yikes. Sorry, but that HAD to come out.
About the Jews and the US government. You may think I am gullible for saying this now, but I do believe the conspiracy-theory accounts that suggest that in the 9/11 WTC disaster almost no Jews were killed because hardly any were in the towers on that day as they must have been informed by those in the know about what was about to happen . . .
And unless I am wrong, the Jewish community in the US is home to many of the wealthiest US citizens, and they are closely connected with the powers that be. These are all post-war (WW2) developments...
Googling just now, I found this interesting link on how Israeli citizens feel about the USA... Bush and Obama are really quite different... http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1245184872947
I do not really wish to take this further, it's so nothing to do with the purpose of the whole thread, nor do I wish to step on anyone's toes or foster any negative feelings toward any culture, nation or race.
let's all keep learning, and keep our minds as open as we can.
Back on thread-topic... About Thailand being less-than-friendly... yeah sure... I have only been going for 9 years and I know I probabyl missed out on the times when it was truly friendly... but I did see it go from ok to bad to worse..... no wonder, considerign how so many visitors treat the locals... visitors from all over the world, mainly the West. Many seem quite disrespectful, with vulgar displays of money, sex tourism, loud late-night drinking and singing... and no genuine interest in the country and its people or culture. beers'n'burgers'mediocre Western music galore... even in remote island paradises.. wtf... now that we have made the Thais so jaded and destroyed tha paradise that once was, seems that perhaps we will move on to newer, fresher, more innocent shores in order to do the whole thing again..... and the more numerous we becoem there the more decadent we will become and the more the locals - relying more and more heavily on the tourist dollar - will become jaded and treat us like the Thais seem to be doing now.
i did notice, in Thailand, that up North folks are way friendlier... in Bangkok I suppose the low end of Sukhimvit and KhaoSarn are among the worst, as are many places in Samui and pockets of Pha Ngan (the closer to Had Rin I go the more I can feel it). There is a hell of a lot of bottled-up anger in so many Thai males especially in the areas i mentioned, sometimes when many people gather in one place the air is so thick it feels like you could cut it with a knife...
(just my experience.. I welcome any constructive criticisms to my meanderings here)
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Ximot
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 3,446
yeah... can be said for all nations, can't it?
when it comes to money... i felt this in Egypt and China and Bali even more than I felt it in Thailand, or at least as much. When you get haves entering a territory of have-nots, whaddaya expect????? No wonder I didn't get it in japan...
yeah... can be said for all nations, can't it?
when it comes to money... i felt this in Egypt and China and Bali even more than I felt it in Thailand, or at least as much. When you get haves entering a territory of have-nots, whaddaya expect????? No wonder I didn't get it in japan...
It's true that economic disparity in Japan is much less than many other countries, but a significant number of wealthy Japanese also attempt to hide their affluence.
JV
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2003
- Messages
- 7,319
ive been meaning to compile this thread for some time now, and finally took the time to do it. this thread will be composed of all the travel-related threads posted in SO (archived posts arent added here yet). ive broken it down into catagories so hopefully it will be easier to access. suggestions, comments, what i missed, etc. welcome and appreciated.
hope you enjoy and it helps out.
Africa:
sorry Africa. i did see someone wants to work in Sudan, so maybe ill add that here.
Americas:
50 Stars: Americans, teach us about your country.
Las Vegas Using a Passport
Living in Costa Rica
Working/Living in the Arctic for summer?
Asia:
Holiday in India or China?
Thailand
Thailand Visa?
Tips for travelling in India during monsoon season (Delhi, Agra, Varanasi)
Travel around the Indian Subcontinent - practicalities?
Traveling in Indonesia
Traveling to India and Nepal. Recommended or Mandatory Immunizations?
Australia:
no love for OZ. look at the bright side, at least you wont have yanks like me in your country! :D
Europe:
Balkans (and Vienna) in August
What would you do if you had 2 weeks in Italy and EU?
Miscellaneous:
<<Good Places to Live>>
Best days to book flights and other questions
Ever moved thousands of miles away, looking for a change in life?
Finding travel companions?
Has anyone ever just taken off?
HELLLLP (another quick travel/flight question)
How do you travel without being a tourist?
How many round trip flights do you take per year?
Most plastic place you've ever been.
Moving to another city + finding an apartment
Sending off luggage to a destination other than the one you're going to?
SO Travelers: Help me plan my (spontaneous) trip!
Solo Camping 101?
Travelers: Whats the best place for cheap travel?
Traveling overseas. Where and why?
Traveling Solo
what countries allow easy residency to US citizens?
what to take travelling
Where should I go travel for a semester off??
Where should I visit?
Why DON'T you travel?
archived travel threads to be added later.
hope you enjoy and it helps out.
Africa:
sorry Africa. i did see someone wants to work in Sudan, so maybe ill add that here.
Americas:
50 Stars: Americans, teach us about your country.
Las Vegas Using a Passport
Living in Costa Rica
Working/Living in the Arctic for summer?
Asia:
Holiday in India or China?
Thailand
Thailand Visa?
Tips for travelling in India during monsoon season (Delhi, Agra, Varanasi)
Travel around the Indian Subcontinent - practicalities?
Traveling in Indonesia
Traveling to India and Nepal. Recommended or Mandatory Immunizations?
Australia:
no love for OZ. look at the bright side, at least you wont have yanks like me in your country! :D
Europe:
Balkans (and Vienna) in August
What would you do if you had 2 weeks in Italy and EU?
Miscellaneous:
<<Good Places to Live>>
Best days to book flights and other questions
Ever moved thousands of miles away, looking for a change in life?
Finding travel companions?
Has anyone ever just taken off?
HELLLLP (another quick travel/flight question)
How do you travel without being a tourist?
How many round trip flights do you take per year?
Most plastic place you've ever been.
Moving to another city + finding an apartment
Sending off luggage to a destination other than the one you're going to?
SO Travelers: Help me plan my (spontaneous) trip!
Solo Camping 101?
Travelers: Whats the best place for cheap travel?
Traveling overseas. Where and why?
Traveling Solo
what countries allow easy residency to US citizens?
what to take travelling
Where should I go travel for a semester off??
Where should I visit?
Why DON'T you travel?
archived travel threads to be added later.
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