Can you be born gay or is it a choice?

I don't feel like it. To me, the best sex is sex with the potential to create life.

You're right, though, it might be counterintuitive, the roles "failures" play.

I was actually coming back to delete my previous comment, though. But I guess in the civilized world homosexual rights and acceptances are more coming about in Western European cultured areas. Not to say they are the reason. The whole civil rights movement... And acceptance of difference within, has sparked more acceptance perhaps. In places like SE Asia differing sexualities exist, but from what I seem to remember the ladyboy/transsexual is not considered gay, or the male who engages with them either, and gay is still frowned on despite openness for these things (from what I remember seeing but I could be wrong).

But basically, we in Western European dominated (often) places, with the rise of feminism, "equal rights" and all go that, have grown more open, and less rigid, certainly. And anything that stands against that is often considered, or compared with such things as Nazism or whatever. So there is this ... Extreme push the other direction. Where people think we are all gray, the same, and everything is environment.

I don't know.

What 23 said:

To me, the best sex is sex with the potential to create life.

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...and thus your genetic legacy is cemented. Breed on!

Although... (and this has really been eating at me) every time I pull out I do feel like a failure for some reason. I wonder if there is something to this.

Instinct.

But I have no children. But whenever I masturbate... If I envision anal it just seems unfulfilling. But if I imagine a girl I love, and cumming inside of her, in love, and light... Though simulated, this so better than if I imagine other ways.

There is a mental element as well.. But for me I feel like I need to have a reason for things. I need to anchor what I do. I can't seem to find a good solid anchor for ejaculating into a rectum. Even condoms are often meh.

Furthermore, though, for me, I guess having fun any way with someone I potentially could or would accept becoming one flesh with is better/is a universe beyond with someone who I could not with.

But back to choice- I apologize for sliding off topic (really, I am). I'm not sure.

What 23 said:

I imagine a girl I love, and cumming inside of her, in love, and light (like the color of my semen is like the milky way/stars)

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This precise fantasy is my anchor while ejaculating into a rectum - a much needed consolation in my sperm-squandering moments of weakness. If only they would accept rectum-sperm at my sperm bank, I'd be set... and believe me, I have tried. One thing that does work, I've come to find, is collecting all of my frivolously liberated ejaculate and placing it in a tiny sperm coffin and holding a little burial ceremony. I'm proud to say that my seed, and with it my hedonist guilt, is buried across the globe.

Oh. Are you gay?

I'm not. In my case the rectum would be female, but same diff, right?

BTW, there's refreshing irony in the fact that, while most of the posters in SLR report massive anxiety over the idea that their sperm might have made its way to the egg, your anxiety stems from the opposite - those poor, wasted sperm. Not 'that pesky sperm that got away', but 'those hopeless millions, shackled to the gruesome fate of condom death, of rectum death' - all that potential, so whimsically flushed down the toilet of hedonism. What a riot!

This place reminds me of a broken record sometimes... You're different and I like that.

I understand some won't make it. I don't necessarily want children either, just to have them. Sex is complicated. I guess I just don't feel great(!) having it, unless I'm willing to accept that risk/possibility. ... Much of the time.

And I'm all for hedonism... But the stress of having a child with someone who I don't want to be attached to like that is not very feel good. Love, real love, and wholesome life-promotion... Forgive my lack of linguistic abilities to express my feelings... Is the greatest feeling to me.

I've had fun, definitely. But what seems the best to me aligns with what I think is the best (finding the beautiful bride- the soft woman- or one capable... the mother- the sister- the close friend- the one love- the heart- my joy in life, who will bring me joy, and who I will want to bring joy to).

So I guess what I'm saying.. Is that want the most pleasure possible.

I'm with you there. I think there may be two 'sexual selves' seeking that pleasure though. The expressive one that constructs a sexual identity (the ars erotica), and the instinctive one that liberates a desire (the scientia sexualis). Traditionally 'Eastern' pleasure, and 'Western' pleasure, respectively*. I like to satisfy both (I engage in sex because I am sexual, and I am sexual because I engage in sex)... That said, I do think the 'I leave a load in everything I fuck' strategy would be massively effective as a deterrent for having frivolous sex with degenerates. As much as I hate to admit it, my genetics hold a value for me, and I don't want my blue ribbon sperm mingling with gutter eggs, or trailer eggs, or junkie eggs, or darkie eggs goddamnit! But seriously, sex with the right one is where it's at.

[*footnote: In 'Western' pleasure, repression creates the illusion of instinct and, consequently, an "essential sexuality" - our sexual utopia. Eastern pleasure, not burdened with the renaissance tradition of repression, envisions an 'aesthetic sexuality' as utopia - a sort of malleable, sexual avatar. (according to Foucault)]

What 23 said:

But in their case... Nothing. Worthless. Only selfish, hedonistic pleasure, and a waste of a valuable resource (not that one couldnt argue the same for condoms).

But, maybe there is something more. But to me, it seems pointless.

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7 billion people on this planet.... your logic is flawed. Actually, we have an over-population problem... more people are starving, than not... and it WILL GET WORSE because of the stupidity of mankind.

The sperm in our balls has no real value. Shark fins are worth more than several adults combined.

Also.. cum in your hands, a condom, an ass, a vagina with an IUD... or just sitting in your balls... it doesn't matter. sperm "dies".

The sperm in your testicles is only good for a day or so... then its reabsorbed into your body and new ones are made... constantly. Hence, its possible for a single man to impregnate more than one woman a day, every day.

You seem to just be wanting to argue, on some points. I have said I understand sperm dies. But it is the potential for use that I find to be of value. And for me there is a spiritual component. With a female, even with a condom, there is a chance, or potential. Two gay dudes just seem like friends masturbating or playing tennis. But maybe I just haven't found an anchor.

As for value of my semen... I tend to feel at a certain loss of "power" when I release it, especially if it wasn't worth it. Or something feels a bit less or out of whack-I don't know. I struggle with regret. That could be psychospiritual, and personal. But instinct would logically favor, and the mind it wouldn't be a surprise if it followed, semen in a woman who one desires.

As for overpopulation... I tend to agree... But I'm not sure at this point that we aren't just inefficient.

For me the orientations and their practices just are not comparable (that is, gay and straight). But... I'm glad there are gay people! Ha. I mean, not to make a joke of this only, but some of those guys would ruin some of our chances at the women if they chose to be with women. Less competition. I've appreciated many of them. So as I've said, maybe God uses failure. Maybe things that we perceive as such on a level aren't on another. I don't know.

I don't mean to hijack the thread... To reiterate my position on choice in general I like to make the Great Gyramid with its missing capstone a metaphor. We might have a choice (what goes there at the top?)... But a lot is already there... A lot of factors (like 2,300,000 blocks for one estimate in it's case). And I don't know.

And about the gay argument... I admit that I have had sexual fantasies. Bisexual... For me it is often a choice because I can anchor it to only pay attention to my attraction, which is strong, to females... But I have had desires sexually with men/genetic males. And I say this with risk that the girl of my dreams might read this and be turned off by me. But I have wanted it all ways at times. But for fulfillment, only a girl can do that, I think. I think. Maybe I just need to be the girl. Ha. I don't know. Again, not to hijack the thread. I wish I could be a full shape-shifter.

Then again I tend not to like the smell of men, from experience. But I've been challenged to challenge myself, and preconceptions.

No, not to really argue... the human race isn't about to go instinct due to low populations (see = rhinos) but we may do severe damage to ourselves and many animals on this planet due to over population. "we aren't inefficient" - sure, to degree... we are animals. We require resources for our food and toys. You can fit the entire human population in a small city - standing shoulder to shoulder... Still need resources and space to eat, live, etc. We're too stupid to make any major changes.

Its a mental thing about semen... fine. I can understand some edge to that... but by our own hands, we've wasted trillions of sperms every year.

Two guys playing tennis is just that, tennis. Its a sport. Not a romantic relationship between living creatures. Its like you're reducing homosexuality to nothing more than a sex act. You're throwing out their spirituality... no? There are gay people who've been in relationships for decades... like other humans. So, perhaps - think of it like... you're giving your orgasm to someone you like/love... as well as the actual love-making and after-sex care.

Gay or not, men - more than not... just want to CUM and GO. Its a "high" in the happy center of the brain. With medication (drugs) that can be enhanced or reduced.

"I mean, not to make a joke of this only, but some of those guys would ruin some of our chances at the women if they chose to be with women. " - yes, old joke - a good one too... Also, it saves hundreds of thousands of births a year... a good thing.

If you're thinking of guys (and masturbating) - perhaps you are bi-curious? Hooking up with a guy... is easy, internet, gay clubs... but I think most gay men want something more than a fuck.

"Then again I tend not to like the smell of men, from experience." Then, date - meet up with a girlie (queer) man... but guys tend to always smell like guys. That is the turn-on. My wife likes how I smell - even when I'm stinky of sweat. So the most you will be "smelling" a guy is if you're sucking him.

I meant we aren't efficient... I lost thought-train mid-sentence.

In my opinion, both answers are correct.

I think it's possible to be born a certain way i.e gay/straight/bi/trans. But I also think it's possible for someone who is either one of these categories to decide they might like to try out one of the other categories... some may only try it out once or twice and class it as "experimentation" while others might find that they enjoy it enough to make it a part of their life and may then favor it over their original preferences.

Maybe that's what happened to the man you're talking about LuGOJ?

I mean I'm of the belief that some people are born with a higher likelihood of being gay, however our instincts are typically to reproduce. The truth is we don't really know, if someone was born into a society where being gay is acceptable then they have a higher likelihood of being gay. If someone is born into a society with arranged marriages to the opposite gender then it is less likely that someone will turn out to be gay. Culture would seem to define the odds that someone turns out to be gay. This being said there tend to be plenty of gay people in societies where that is generally forbidden. Science has not given a good answer to this question yet. I am a believer in nurture over nature in most cases so I'd lean on people being gay as a result of life experiences. Same goes for being straight. We as a species seek pleasure wherever it may be, so I think the odds of someone being bisexual are much much greater in the most free societies. At the end of the day most things are influenced by both nurture and nature which would lead me to believe that some people have a biological predisposition towards attraction to the same gender and also the life experience can lead to attraction to the same gender. Idk this shit is mad complicated when you really dig into it.

^Closet homosexuals are still homosexuals

A man who is only attracted to other men, but is forced to marry a woman or exclusively has sex with a women to meet the expectations of society is still gay.

You could claim otherwise, but I think most people here will attest to the fact that their sexuality was in tact well before they actually had sex.

Maybe men who exclusively have sex with women (and enjoy it) but also fantasize about other men could be considered "bi-curious", but by that logic, virgins who are sexually attracted to members of the opposite sex would have to be labeled "hetero-curious" and virgins who are sexually attracted to members of the same sex would have to be labeled "homo-curious". It's only fair...

...but maybe we should have to consummate our sexuality before we can claim it. I mean, if you're straight, fucking prove it.

The raw form of a person is born with the id. The id is desire and instinct. How can you say this raw form has already a preference or direction for these desires, be it sexual or not. The super ego is developed in the early stages of life and I believe this and the ego are responsible for a person's sexual preference. As a child one is exposed to many influential ideas that implant in the brain. The ego has the final say in the end as it is more developed to fully fathom sexual preference due to the development of the super-ego and the id's desire. If that makes sense.

it's just a theory

What 23 said:

I meant we aren't efficient... I lost thought-train mid-sentence.

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I knew what you meant, and answered accordingly. We are eating up the resources... and there is very little sign of that changing anytime soon. Look at the over-fishing in our oceans. Boats have to go out deeper and deeper... they're catching things they don't want (which end up dead) to get a few that they actually do want. On a small scale - they have shown that CONTROLLED FISHING (a MAX quota) - allows the sea life to grow back. With over-fishing... its... plain stupid. "WE NEED THE FISH!!" Okay, just don't get as much this year... maybe more next year.... "NO WE NEED FISH!" - idiot human thinking. Its like we're cancer... to stupid to NOT kill the host (our planet).

PotatoMan said:

The raw form of a person is born with the id. The id is desire and instinct. How can you say this raw form has already a preference or direction for these desires, be it sexual or not. The super ego is developed in the early stages of life and I believe this and the ego are responsible for a person's sexual preference. As a child one is exposed to many influential ideas that implant in the brain. The ego has the final say in the end as it is more developed to fully fathom sexual preference due to the development of the super-ego and the id's desire. If that makes sense. it's just a theory

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"ID" - Identity? That doesn't describe a person's personality, which is many parts that makes up a whole.

Babies are not born with a "clean slate". All babies eat, shit, pee, cry and sleep for the first few months - that is for certain. But even before they are born (20+ weeks), they have rudimentary personality for which you can not "teach" - its who they are. There are personality traits that I do, as an adult - that I have done since I was toddler. My last son was born 6 weeks early (3.2lbs), very healthy - considering. Yet, he did things HIS way, the way others did not. He would do things with his body... that are more obvious as a toddler - that he didn't do from watching me.

Also known, is that babies HEAR the out side world. So going to concerts, the music is already making the brain "grow" to know things. Hence, why its recommended to talk to the baby... they'll know your voice... but they know the beating heart of mom more than anything else.

Afterbirth, there are outside influences - combined with the personality the person is born with and the choices that person makes, is what defines him.
You can teach a person truth, right from wrong, music, skills. Their abilities determine how well they do those things. Two brothers, brought up in a loving stable home... yet it DOES happen that one becomes success while the other chooses crime. The resources of the family helps in direction as well. Being in poverty = crime. Being well off (not rich) = less likely to be a criminal. Also, it determines likely drug use, quality of drugs and the ability to get it. Many lottery winners ($100,000~ 3million) have gone become bankrupt from spending ALL the money on parties and drugs (mostly drugs) and even ended up dead or in prison.

Clitnhawk said:

"ID" - Identity? That doesn't describe a person's personality, which is many parts that makes up a whole.

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The ID is the raw state. The sex drive, instincts. Wanting to survive, eating etc. This state of being logically cannot have a "direction/preference" as it is 100% unaware of existence and what is out there.

Clitnhawk said:

Babies are not born with a "clean slate". All babies eat, shit, pee, cry and sleep for the first few months - that is for certain. But even before they are born (20+ weeks), they have rudimentary personality for which you can not "teach" - its who they are.

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This is where we do not agree. I do not believe you can be born with a personality. Nonsense IMO.

Clitnhawk said:

There are personality traits that I do, as an adult - that I have done since I was toddler. My last son was born 6 weeks early (3.2lbs), very healthy - considering. Yet, he did things HIS way, the way others did not. He would do things with his body... that are more obvious as a toddler - that he didn't do from watching me.

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This is the period in which I identify the super-ego, the part of the personality that stores cultural ideas and beliefs. The state in which the newborn is now at most observant. The state where it picks up mannerisms and such.

Clitnhawk said:

Also known, is that babies HEAR the out side world. So going to concerts, the music is already making the brain "grow" to know things. Hence, why its recommended to talk to the baby... they'll know your voice... but they know the beating heart of mom more than anything else.

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Same as above. They are in a sort ot "moulding" state of being.

Clitnhawk said:

Afterbirth, there are outside influences - combined with the personality the person is born with and the choices that person makes, is what defines him.

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The 3 all make up a personality. The ego is formed last. Picture the Id and super-ego as the devil and angel respectively, the ego is the balance which does things and chooses things from influence on both sides.

Clitnhawk said:

You can teach a person truth, right from wrong, music, skills. Their abilities determine how well they do those things. Two brothers, brought up in a loving stable home... yet it DOES happen that one becomes success while the other chooses crime. The resources of the family helps in direction as well. Being in poverty = crime. Being well off (not rich) = less likely to be a criminal. Also, it determines likely drug use, quality of drugs and the ability to get it. Many lottery winners ($100,000~ 3million) have gone become bankrupt from spending ALL the money on parties and drugs (mostly drugs) and even ended up dead or in prison.

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All of these are environmental or "nurture" influences. These attributes one cannot be born with IMO.