feelin' no love - physical or psychological?

Cowboy Mac · Feb 17, 2003

bare with me with this short background info. i am on a break from mdma and havnt had it for approx. six months as the last 5 or so experiences were continually degrading - including the loss of love (which what made mdma unique to me in the first place) and an increase of an amphetamine feel. my comedowns were never very bad, i did take a few days to recover fully, but towards the end i never got too high i never had to deal with anything too bad, and i always post-loaded with 5htp.
i feel my tolerance has been due to the following reasons: the only pills i have had over the last two and half years have been those referred to as the 'x scores' (high content mdma) and during each session never having more 2, very rarely having 3. the frequency probably was around once a fortnight, for bit over a year. i first used mdma late 1999.
i know each person is different, (levels of CYP2D6 for example), however a close friend has been through almost the same situation and he still gets loved up, whereas i do not. he thinks the lack of effect is accountable psychologically, whereas i believe it is due to physical neurological changes.
my question is this: do you think mdma does not affect me as much (loss of love) due to physical neurological changes cause by sustained use, or do you think it is psychological and mdma should still work under the correct set and setting if i am willing?
[ 17 February 2003: Message edited by: Cowboy Mac ]

simpledimple · Feb 17, 2003

I think that the damage mdma causes the user as far as neurological chemical changes shows it's face after you've ceased using it.
2.5yrs is a good innings, a person who was chemically imbalanced to begin with could well be deep in the trenches after that.

he still gets loved up, whereas i do not. he thinks the lack of effect is accountable psychologically
Maybe he doesn't want to lose his pill buddy, is that possible?
'or do you think it is psychological and mdma should still work under the correct set and setting if i am willing?'
Well we know thats definetly not right, because I'm sure you remember the times when mdma would work in any situation.
It's definetly neurological changes, I'd find it very hard to believe at this point that ecstacy makes no neurological changes...
The regular late nights and disruptions over time have made changes aswell.
Best of luck, hope your not too down!

BigTrancer · Feb 17, 2003

I think you'll get the magic back Cowboy Mac, you just have to be patient

That being said, I have no conclusive evidence one way or the other.
I should point out that MDMA isn't the only factor that affects the available levels of serotonin in your brain, and the serotonin system isn't the only factor that affects the 'goodness' of an ecstacy experience... there are many other variables involved.
BigTrancer

[ 18 February 2003: Message edited by: BigTrancer ]

Nickstar · Feb 18, 2003

The LOVE IS GONE!!!!!!!!

wazza · Feb 18, 2003

Do you (still) get excited before you are about to take a pill. What are your thoughts, have they changed? Maybe try looking at the whole picture of what is happening and as BigTrancer said, there are many variables. You yourself should know the signs your body is telling you, to a certain degree. Do you take pills by themselves and/or whilst you are drinking etc. If you are taking a pill by itself, maybe try changing the environment and have a few beers before hand. Maybe a synergy of the alchol changed emotions may give you a hand in regards to the mdxx/loved up feelings?
Good luck and I hope you regain the loved up feelings you are looking for?

Cowboy Mac · Feb 18, 2003

waz: naa when i was taking them towards the end i wasnt really too excited, thats not to say that i didnt want to have them or couldnt have had a great time while i was on them. ill stay on my break until i do want to try it once more, when i am excited about it

Jokerswild · Feb 18, 2003

I too am on a not so self-imposed break. I will be up to three months by the time I get home, It together with another recent overseas assignment for 5 weeks are the only extended periods I have had off over the past 3 years. Previously my longest spell was no more than a fortnight with a majority of the years weekends spent downing on average 3-4 pills with occasions where I went from Thursday night and downed up to 10. I would have to say that I have felt the same as yourself for some time. I also have long since lost the Love, I have tried in vain to regain it, eating more pills, getting better quality, pre loading, improving diet and fitness but nothing seemed to work. I found also that I was at the stage where I went into a weekend so focused on getting loved up that I think I may have put to much pressure on myself and was in the end disappointed (Pill popping performance pressure what a concept). I believe that the reason for it all was more psychological than anything else, why? Because I think I know how I should feel, being off tap is now an experience I am accustomed to, one I have mastered, one I have some control over. I am no longer experiencing a new sensation and that’s why I believe I cannot truly enjoy it as I once did. I believe I need to take a long break no to replenish serotonin but to forget how it feels, to not want to control it. I need my mind to just let it happen.
Well that’s my 2 cents.
Cheers
JoKeR

papapilla · Feb 18, 2003

C.Mac I too am about the stage you are at! I am however still consuming.
My history is.... started popping bout 12 months ago now. During early stages i was 1 pill a weekend (either a friday or sat night) which then became 1 on both nights. That then progressed to the odd one during the week for an event. From here my usage went up to more than 1 a night as i seeked that higher high that I was getting in the early days. At the stage I was (in the not to distant past) I could consume anything upto 7 0r 8 pills withing a 24 hour period.
It is once I got to this stage that I started to ask myself... "WHERE'S THE LOVE". The next question was WHERE MY CASH?
I have since cut back my usage to approx 2 a weekend & none during the week.
I have found that having a couple of acoholic beverages (to get to that happy stage- NOT PISSED) before popping tends to help with my roll. Also making sure you are in a great frame of mind... plenty of sleep.... great mood... great setting (with friends & familiar place) all add to a higher state of happiness which means a higher high!!
Another thing is the excitement as someone mentioned. This has sparked thoughts in my mind that most nights leading up to... I am not so excited about. It is just another night on the town- and when I think back to events that I have attended where I have been SUPER EXCITED for I have had the time of my life & loved it big time!
I have also noticed that my sex drive has dropped off alot as of late. I am still having sex twice a day most days BUT between those times & leading up to (even in the initiation-kissing etc...) I do not think or feel that WANT of sex as I once did! Its only once the gear comes off that I am fully into it.
Now I'm not sure if the pills or other pressures in my life, that i have had, have caused this decline in sex drive.

lorrett · Feb 18, 2003

CBM....you're in the same boat as me mate (LOL)...anyway for me its mainly psychological and a little bit "tolerance".
btw...i'm on a big fuckin break too......

god bless them x-.....

superbabydoc · Feb 18, 2003

I think neurological changes are a possibility, but I think the psychological state has more to do with it, in this case. When taking MDMA becomes a routine thing, a lot of the fun goes out of it. In fact when anything becomes routine, the fun decreases. I also am inclined to think that the people you use MDMA with will have an impact. If you next use it with someone you are really close to, at a party or event you are really excited about, I think you will regain some if not all of the magic.

DO you pre-load with antioxidant's? If we assume there is a physical component to this, maybe they would help. There is some evidence to suggest they may reduce tolerance to MDMA. See here.

Euphorik · Feb 18, 2003

cowboy = jaded,
[ 18 February 2003: Message edited by: Euphorik ]

Cowboy Mac · Feb 18, 2003

^^^ heh, i guess, i hate nrg and kandy does that count? but then again i have for years.. so thats no big deal. i still go to parties regularly and often dont have any drugs, maybe a little acid (mmmm). anyone who has been partying longer than 12 months is jaded, i just enjoy parties on a different level than when i first began.
babydoc_vic: the last mdma experience that prompted my break was because i preloaded with 5-htp (no antioxidants) for a few days before and was psychologically pumped for a great night as i had a two month break before this also. unfortunately it felt like i could have had only a week or two off for the effect i received. i do think a change in group dynamics may have an effect, however i think ill continue along on my break until i have the desire to have mdma once more and that may be the key.
thanks for all the replies guys, getting an interesting range of opinions.
[ 18 February 2003: Message edited by: Cowboy Mac ]

Dr. Beat · Feb 19, 2003

I think it is both. Only breaks (lots of them) can help the physical tolerence, but i can give some hints with the psychological tolerence.
The big problem with the drugs (party) scene - I remember when i first started drinking when i was young and most of us used to get so high and act silly and rant and muck around and have a ball, then over the years everyone got flatter and duller on alcohol, mostly to over use (accepted in this society, eg. a drink after work every night dysfuntion), and now when i go to 30 age plus 'parties' hardly anybody is Partying! they just sit there and act normal and straight, and boring, and talk about negative gearing, ect. Their attitude to alcohol is fucked! (or dysfunctional in psycho-babble).
The same with smoking dope. When i first started at uni a group of us used to smoke and laugh our guts out, and act like mad men, and do crazy stunts, and say mental things. over the years everyone got flatter and flatter (mostly from over use) and the same people 10 years later are sad fucks who smoke cones and go silent and do nothing but sit there!
Same with the pill heads - because it was magical in the start, they think it is a magic pill. It is NOT! It just ENHANCES what is inside. I notice many people in the pill scene who have non party attitude to pills - eg. They put a pill in their mouth and expect a instant party. It does not work like that. Good parties come about because people put Energy into them - especially the people. How often do you smile at people? How often do you walk up to complete stranges and start conversations and try to have a good talk, not just the usual 'what pill are you on' crap?
When i feel like it is getting routine i try something new. Example - 2 years ago i bought 150 cheap energy drinks, and whenever i met someone really friendly (a stranger) and was having a good talk i would give them one. It always made people happy.
Last year i ran around 'raves' giving out rave safe flyers with internet addresses on them (like dancesafe and bluelight) and most people were really happy, especially the people who just started raving. The old burn out jaded ones did not like it, but tough luck i say.
And when the melbourne shuffle is in full force, it makes alot of people insecure (who are not good at it, or are not control freaks), so i just start dancing with my eyes closed my own style to help change the dancefloor dynamic.
I try to smile at as many people as possible, and always say sorry if i knock someone.
I have been raving for over 4 years now, but only go 'raving' 10 times a year, and so only take about 10 pills a year, to keep my physical tolerence down. So the magic is still there thank god...
To get the magic back, the only way I have personally found (after trying many things) is to go to a drug psychologist and sort out why you abused drugs in the first place. If you are a happy person inside you do not have the desire to take lots of pills (or drugs). After seeing the psycohologist after about 6 months you will feel much happier inside, and after about 1 year will be glowing and when you take drugs the next time, you will get the biggest buzz you have ever got in your life. That is what happened to me and a good friend anyway. Because when people take drugs, any emotional baggage that most of us are carrying around gets in the way and stops the full potential of the drug experience, but more importantly stops the high! But I warn you - if you do work out your emotion problems you will like much more cheesy (happy) music and you will dislike 'intellegent', dark, serious or twisted music. And you will probably start likeing candy (happy colours) again, and dislike people wearing black (or dark) colours. That is what happened to me and everyone I know who has done therapy. Just warning you...
Also this has to be said - in the party scene (alcohol, smoke, pills, ect) some people are total control freaks, some people let go 100% (like me), and most people are somewhere in the middle. The more of a control freak you are on drugs, the LESS HIGH YOU GET!!!!! I cannot stress how important this is. I have been partying with drugs for 10 years now and i see this to be SO true, no matter what drug you are on. When you let go 100% like I do, you say many silly things, make mistakes (I once fell over a podium!), and compared to the control freaks look like a e-tard, but I am having FUN!!!! And that is what drugs should be about. If you take drugs for any other reason, (stressed week, angry, bored, getting away from home, following your friends, drugs are cool, not happy inside, ect) then your are using drugs dysfuntionally and will pay the price later.
Anyway, I hope you find the answer to happyness!
Isn't that what we all want?

Cowboy Mac · Feb 19, 2003

^^^ this isnt meant to be a flame but i think that was a general comment but there are defiantly some things in there i completely disagree with. most notably

But I warn you - if you do work out your emotion problems you will like much more cheesy (happy) music and you will dislike 'intelligent', dark, serious or twisted music. what the fuck? if i like minimal tek and dark psy and hate nrg and kandy i have emotional problems? and if i go and get these 'emotional problems' sorted out ill like bright clothes and kandy? a persons choice of music and the way they dress doesnt always reflect their emotional stability, its because thats who they are and what they like.
as a side note i didnt start this thread because im trying to regain the mdma magic and am having 5 pills an event, its was meant to be along the lines of where do you think psychological / physical tolerance begins.
[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: Cowboy Mac ]

atomica · Feb 19, 2003

mmm its obviously partly psychological but i really do think some of it is chemical.
check out mah man and me. before we stopped rolling very often, he would still be mistaken for a "first timer", and he's been partying since 95! for me, a lot of the fun wore off a very long time ago, and i find it extremely difficult to get a good roll. i've only been going out for abt 4yrs and during that time my partner and i have pilled the exact same number of times (but i took less quantity).
i did 1.5pills my first roll. nowadays it takes about a 3rd - and the window b/w no effect and being competely mashed and out of it is very very small. and no, its not the quality of the pills, we had some awesome pills back then. & it did not take long at all for the change in experience to happen. it wasnt too long after i started rolling before the "empathic", shit-talking effect wore off and i became quiet and somewhat introverted while rolling.
part is b/c i once did way too much triggering a bad reaction (yes this is psychological but i think also i did damage to myself then). part cuz i'm bipolar anyways. i really do think that my own chemistry has played a big part in my reaction to mdma over time.
and i still really want to be able to roll.. sometimes a party is just right, and i really want to.. but when i've tried to i cant make it right. i get too little so i take a *teeny* bit more and then i'm on another world till i puke. and i'm too out of it to feel good, and after i puke its more like i'm on speed. finding the love is very hard for me.
so my 2c is that there is definately a chemical element to it. i cant explain my experiences any other way, i just dont think its all psychological.
as a last lil note, i tried to roll at a party in november, and it was terrible.. my first roll in well over 6 months.
but then we did MDA in december, which i thought was *way* too soon, and it worked a charm, and i rolled properly for the first time in a *very* long time. (i'm now back on another super long break )
the psychological element for me comes from me being stable emotionally and knowing that i'll stand up well to the battering my poor neurons will take. and that is part chemical too, cuz the bipolar and all my moodiness (or lack thereof) is chemical.
okie, i'm rambling now. u know what i'm talking bout mac, you've seen me at my worst & rollingest (memories of a quarter yonex at forbidden 3 *sigh*)

[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: atomica ]
[ 19 February 2003: Message edited by: atomica ]

Cowboy Mac · Feb 19, 2003

^^^ indeed i do atomica. MDA is damn strong for me too, i had that in one of my last few rolls, but MDMA and MDA are worlds apart where empathy is concerned

i think next time i have MDMA ill change the dynamics of it all to mix things up.. after a long break of course, maybe then and with my mind off it all it will be more enjoyable

Dr. Beat · Feb 20, 2003

Originally posted by Cowboy Mac:
what the fuck? if i like minimal tek and dark psy and hate nrg and kandy i have emotional problems?
yes. but hard NRG is argry (negative) music. Uplifting trance is happy (positive) music. If you like Hard NRG or Slamming Techno you are angry inside. If you love uplifting trance you are happy inside. It is that simple. Of course, people are complex and can osscillate between different emotions over time and place, and can even have different emotions at the same time. I study music-psychology and it is 100% true.

and if i go and get these 'emotional problems' sorted out ill like bright clothes and kandy?
yes. If you ever do therapy you will agree with this. If you never do therapy you will never agree with this. It is that simple.

a persons choice of music and the way they dress doesnt always reflect their emotional stability, its because thats who they are and what they like.

wrong. a persons choise of music totally reflects how a person is inside. Music you *like* you emotionally connect to. Music you do *not* like you emotionally do *not* connect to.
To take is further: If you are happy you have happy thoughts. If you angry you have angry thoughts. If you are depressed you have negative thoughts. We all love to think that our brains control us, but it really is our emotions doing most of the controlling, and then we logically justify our actions *after* our emotions have directed our actions and values, especially when it comes to music, relationships, friendship, travelling, housemates, drugs, movies, food, and so on.
I find people who like jazz are intellectual types who live totally in their head. People who like metal or grunge are angry inside. I find people who love techno are argry control-freaks (inside).People who hate trance hate letting go of their emotions as they feel they are loosing control. Trance is ment to let your emotions go. Through most of our life we try to 'control' our emotions, so I find it refreshing to 'let go' to trance.
If you are unhappy inside, their are a few different things you can do. Take drugs (including alcohol) to supress the feelings (brain-chemistry: increase seratonin), or become a control-freak and try not to show emotions. Most control freaks become work-a-holics and live for work. Work is a good way to not deal with emotions because you are always distracted and dealing with someone elses problems instead of your own. Of course music becomes difficult if you are a control freak because music is ment to make you *more* emotional. So people invented 'logical','intellegent' music like jazz or techno to listen to, so they can stay in their head while listning to the music, and not feel strong emotions. And the music lets them stay in control so they are content. Ever notice that the melbourne shuffle (controlled dancing) came from the techno scene (controlled music). Of course people try and dance the melbourne shuffle to other styles of music but they are not in tune with their emotions, because they dance the same step all night, even though the music *changes* through out the night. They are not dancing to the music, they are dancing to set routines in their *head* and impossing it on the beat of the music.
That is not dancing. It is aerobics, or a gym work out. As you can tell, I hate the melbourne shuffle. I do not emotionally connect with it.
I guess is should add this: the definition of a happy person - happy people smile alot, laugh alot, and are *friendly* to for no ulterior reason (eg. not to pick up, not to score drugs, not to make buisness connection, ect). Go on any peak our train and you can see nobody is happy. Go to some underground raves and you can see nobody is happy. It is no wonder they play unhappy music like slamming techno, psy-techno (modern psy trance), harn NRG (rave clubs), twisted house, deep dark hard trance and so on.
Anyway, sorry i got side tracked, but I hope you find this interesting.
Have a nice day.
[ 20 February 2003: Message edited by: Dr. Beat ]

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wazza · Feb 20, 2003

Life is not black and white

Cowboy Mac · Feb 20, 2003

dr. beat: wtf? its total shit, youve got to be kidding me. by the way do you even know what nrg sounds like? thats so f0sheezy it comes from the dairy, and you say "but hard NRG is argry (negative) music"? anyway i dont want this thread to turn into flame bait, so any further comments on the initial post welcome

[ 20 February 2003: Message edited by: Cowboy Mac ]

Mr. Horse · Feb 20, 2003

Sorry Mac, just let me get this little bit in before the discussion continues.
Dr. Beat: I find it INCREDIBLY hard to believe you're a music psychologist. (or are you using this title in the way some drug dealers do eg: "retail shamen")
You're mixing up taste with emotion. How can you possibly think one music is "happy" and the other is "sad". I listen to jazz. I listen to tech. I listen to house. I listen to the DIRTIEST DARKEST MOST HARDKORE PSY you've ever heard. And am I unhappy person? no way dude, i'm one of the most optimistic people you will ever meet. I have a feeling psy makes me feel the same way trance makes YOU feel.
If you "prescribe" your "patients" cheesy ass trance, then I do believe that could be considered malpractice

anyway, the devil has funkier t00nes.
let the conversation continue

feelin' no love - physical or psychological?

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