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Would you consider dissociatives to be 'hard drugs'?

Didn't the inventor of this drug get himself committed for like a month because of one of these dissociative creations? These are really powerful chemicals we're dealing with, in some ways unrivaled by other, traditional "hard" drugs...
 
Not the inventor of it no, you might be thinking of John Lilly who got addicted to it.

A lot of the "damage" drugs do is down to them being prohibited. Legal heroin for example is one of the safest, least toxic drugs known to mankind.
 
jazz hands said:
Didn't the inventor of this drug get himself committed for like a month because of one of these dissociative creations? These are really powerful chemicals we're dealing with, in some ways unrivaled by other, traditional "hard" drugs...
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I think you may be thinking of the inventor of 3-MeO-2-Oxo-PCE (Methoxetamine). However, that was a comatose reaction to 3-MeO-PCP. I don't think he's ever given a long detailed account of what happened, but to my understanding he was only institutionalized because a letter he wrote to himself years ago as a therapeutic exercise was found by authorities and interpreted as a suicide letter he wrote under the influence of 3-MeO-PCP.

In any case, that was with 50 mg IM I believe, a dose that's already been recklessly doubled (100 mg oral I think) by another user who posted in the 3-MeO-PCP thread.

If you accept the hard/soft drug distinction, I think the heuristic is most defensible for classifying drugs when you consider average reported addiction potential (with physical addiction weighed more heavily than psychological) and average physiological damage. Dissociatives seem to be strongly psychologically addictive, but don't cause withdrawl in ways that can literally endanger a person's life like alcohol, heroin, benzos, etc. There is decent evidence that chronic ketamine abuse causes organ damage (bladder) and reductions in prefrontal gray matter volumes. It's unknown whether the mechanism through which it causes brain damage is shared with the other dissociatives, though ketamine is usually regarded as one of the less "dirty" dissociative anecdotally speaking. Many of the dissociatives being used (4-MeO/3-MeO-PCP/PCE and MXE) have very little info on them, but are probably roughly (very roughly) comparable to ketamine and PCP regarding damage and psychological addiction. On a line from spongy soft to adamantine I would classify dissociatives as "wooden".
 
man it strikes me as strange that many psychonauts are abusing disassociatives and making them 'regular use' drugs. i mean, i can understand the interest, i used to love dxm, and can see the habit-forming potential of it. so i can correlate that and see the obvious reasons why a nice clean powder disassociative could be even more compelling to consume regularly...but just the overall 'adjustment to one's life' or ajustment to ones daily mindset and/or emotional backdrop that would come from 'letting a disassociatvie come along for the ride' full-time seems like a kind of strange choice of 'passangers' in the car of consciousness.

any drug consumed once a week or so, and especially when used much more frequently than that, tends to cause a certain 'tone change' to one's life...largely from the after-glow melting into the next experience repeatedly. since it takes weeks or even a month i've read for the neurotransmitters to go back to 'normal' (arguable that there is such a thing as neurotransmission norms, but back to 'stable' and 'integrated' levels which one is used to). i can always feel little parts of each of my drug uses with me for quite a while after taking it and coming down.

to each their own, but it seems like a strange trend in consciousness and in the pscyonautical community for such a large demographic of our own to becoming a 'disassociative-head'.

do you guys (who are using mxe and/or ket with regularity) feel that the overall 'change' in one's daily mindset and emotions caused from regularly using these drugs is a beneficial adjustment to your daily mindset...? and also, does the 'ego softening' effects of regularly disassociating ones self have benefit as a 'launch pad' for psychedelic and/or meditative transcendent experiences...?

i'm not judging, just curious...to each their own. i'm just trying to extract understanding from the guinea pigs who happen to be doing the study of this material ;) but really, be careful guys..! i love you guys, and don't want to see a generation get overly 'grayed out' from drifting too far and i'd also hate to see anyone lose their articulation and abilities to compile useful information and discussion of psychedelics...afterall thats what i'm here for..!! (not to say disassociative inherenetly do this, but some ketamine addicts i know are rather 'distant' and seemed kind of 'burnt out' from it, even though they're deep cats by nature..)
 
thoughtsUnThought said:
do you guys (who are using mxe and/or ket with regularity) feel that the overall 'change' in one's daily mindset and emotions caused from regularly using these drugs is a beneficial adjustment to your daily mindset...? and also, does the 'ego softening' effects of regularly disassociating ones self have benefit as a 'launch pad' for psychedelic and/or meditative transcendent experiences...?
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Oh yes, daily use certainly sticks around for a while. And negative or positive? I'd say overwhelmingly positive. I'm usually anxiety ridden anytime I'm in public. Nowadays my worst bouts of anxiety last 15 minutes. I'm comfortable with myself in public, and although I'm still not good with strangers I don't get overly concerned every moment I'm around them. As for it's effects on my private life, I'm often in a great mood with no discernable reason. I'm less often frustrated. As far as it's effects on psychedelics: I've grown a spiritual connection to an artist and when I listen to his music on psychedelics it's indescribable. Sometimes when listening to him sober I'll be sucked into a hyper-euphoric state reminiscent of MXE, but psychedelics it's transcendent anytime I take a moment to listen. As far as mental effects go: A little "out-there"ness that sticks around, I forgot words or my line of thought on occasion, and misspell more frequently. I do have fairly severe adult ADHD which makes most of these problems occur regardless (besides misspelling, I'm usually great at spelling), but they've become slightly more frequent.

I've found that if I'm taking MXE more than once a week I need a trip at least once a month to keep my mind anchored and in check. For a while I wasn't doing psychedelics but was doing MXE daily and frankly I was lost in there. I didn't do anything too crazy or ruin my life or anything, I was actually very functional, but I was not self aware and was losing my connection to reality. When I started taking AMT bimonthly with a friend about 3 months ago I found that it completed me, allowed me to anchor myself and keep my mindset more stable and centered. Without tripping semi frequently to get my mind right I become too lost in the state and it would be hard to control my use or gain as much therapeutic value from it as I do now.

As far as choosing dissociatives as a passenger...well, dissociatives just click with me. One of the few drugs that allow me to just slow down and enjoy being and occasionally not being. Opiates don't do it for me, the high is too subtle and straightforward, my mind cuts right through it and makes them hard to enjoy. Psychedelics are great but aren't forgiving when you abuse them. Alcohol wrecks my stomach and makes me feel like shit, doesn't really help my racing mind. Weed is nice sometimes, but it really triggers my anxiety and makes me hyper aware of--everything--, generally exacerbates the moment-to-moment symptoms of ADHD and I find it hard to enjoy it. Dissociatives are perfect in that the high doesn't stifle my mind, it occupies it perfectly, outside input becomes a lot less distracting, and I can get lost in music or an activity without needing 3 other things happening at once to allow me to focused on it. And the effects of daily MXE, though they make some symptoms of ADHD worse (impulsiveness, trouble accessing and categorizing memories, scatterbrain tendencies) they mediate some other symptoms alot. I generally need less stimulation to concentrate and am less overwhelmed by stimulation, I am able to generally socialize more successfully even if I don't feel engaged (I still struggle with this one, but noticeable improvement), my attention span is more stable so I'm less easily distracted and I can multitask easier. I'm also much more in control of when I zone into something and when I zone out of everything, I'm more able to do them intentionally and less likely to get completely lost in what I'm doing/thinking. A lot less natural thought loops too, and I cannot describe how godly that is.
 
wow, impressive response :)

judging by that, i can see pharmaceutical implications of MXE possibly arising in the future. that is if experieces such as yours are common with MXE.

thanks for the response :)

i made a thread regarding this topic if you wanna post there too...lol, or copy-paste
 
The only dissociative I consider to be a hard drug is PCP. Other non dissociative drugs I consider to be hard are heroin, cocaine, and meth. Drugs that can easily kill you or ruin your life are what I consider hard drugs. I suppose most drugs can be hard depending on the user, but this is just my way of looking at it.
 
Toast to the Spirits said:
The only dissociative I consider to be a hard drug is PCP. Other non dissociative drugs I consider to be hard are heroin, cocaine, and meth. Drugs that can easily kill you or ruin your life are what I consider hard drugs. I suppose most drugs can be hard depending on the user, but this is just my way of looking at it.
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I don't see how PCP is any worse than the other dissociatives. The whole "Guy going crazy and cutting off his own arm" or whatever stories are mostly exaggerated or false, and there's nothing to suggest that they're any more likely on PCP than any other dissociative - aside from the fact that PCP is also quite stimulating and not as sedating as say Ketamine. However, if stimulation is the key when it comes to things turning nasty, then MXE, 3-MeO-PCE and 3-MeO-PCP etc are likely to be similarly bad.
 
I really don't like the classification of 'soft' and 'hard' drugs anyway. The meaning of what a 'hard' drug is, is open to too much interpretation.
 
Jesusgreen said:
I don't see how PCP is any worse than the other dissociatives.
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I thought it was worse than the others because its long half life meant it created free radicals (er.. something), or it was just around longer doing the same damage they all do. I'm not sure if adding 3-MeO or 4-MeO to PCP gives enzymes a molecular handle to work with in breaking them down, or if their prefixes theoretically confer some other damage mitigating property (I don't think it's really understood HOW they cause damage). I thought I had read something like that, but I couldn't tell you where or what exactly was said. I know most of popular recreational NMDA antagonist have been shown to cause damage (though using in conjunction with a 5HT2a psychedelic blocks damage according to one study, weirdly), but I think PCP might be the worst of the worst.
 
@ Jesusgreen, have you read about Big Lurch, the hip hop artist? Basically he took too much PCP and did some pretty awful things not realizing he was doing anything wrong at the time. Its an interesting story if you haven't read it. Should come up with a quick search. These kinds of stories have scared me from trying PCP since I was a kid. That's why I've always thought of it as a hard drug. I'm a big fan of ketamine too, just scared to try PCP.
 
i've heard a lot of people say that the primary 'psychotic reactions' which occur from PCP use happen when it is combined with other drugs....often smoking weed or drinking.

while the pcp is still the variable which likely is pushing one into delusion, the fact stands that experienced users on this board have made note that its pcp used in conjunction with other drugs which is the cocktail for disaster. probably not even inherently so with this...but a few were saying a few months ago about how the crazy stories you hear about pcp happen when someone is drunk or stoned on it.
 
Personally ive never liked the term hard or soft drugs,all drugs are bad for you when used excessively and in large amounts,soft seems to summon up images of being ok and hard not ok,or images of powerful to weak.

Dissacociatives are niether,they are powerful drugs that produce effects that are extremely profound and inescapable.
 
laCster said:
yes, most are. DXM is ehh...
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I'd put DXM higher than ketamine or methoxetamine. DXM lasts far longer, has a multitude of side effects, is extremely unpredictable and I've personally found it to be very physically demanding. It interacts with many medications and some recreational drugs and can set off serotonin syndrome for those who don't research.
 
I suppose any blanket statement as to which drugs are hard and which are not can never be totally accurate. I can't speak for anyone but myself in this case, but to me, dissociatives are very hard drugs. I have used psychedelics very frequently and they can be sort of habit forming and problematic in some ways, but dissociatives held tenfold the potential to ruin my life and lead me to using other hard drugs.

I got addicted to ketamine along with several friends, one ended up using heroin soon after, another got addicted to xanex to cope with the mental damage they had done to themselves through k addiction. Both of them are now in rehab and lost alot of their lives and potential. Also the only time I've ever come close to dying was when I overdosed on DXM, accidentally taking 3500mg of pure dxm. Psychedelics have never threatened my life like this.

I'm in no way saying dissociatives will always do this to anyone who uses them, but they certainly hold the potential. It bothers me greatly that alot of people on this forum have been preaching the benefits of very frequent or even daily methoxetamine abuse. This drug is very new, and judging from the flood of reports about people ruining their lives with it I would urge people to use extreme caution when regulating their use of this drug. Ketamine addiction can make one very egotistical and justify the addiction in many strange ways. I am starting to think this is the same for methoxetamine. I think alot of the people praising methoxetamine as a harmless, life affirming daily anti depressant are deceiving themselves and I wouldn't want the many young people who are surely ordering and trying this new drug to come here and read that doing it every day will just fix all the problems in your life. This is supposed to be a harm reduction forum!

I think these drugs hold a great potential for therapeutic value and insight into the nature of reality, especially when used with a psychedelic, in my case specifically tryptamines. I think if you regulate your use and keep them out of your daily life they can be beneficial, but if you let them sneak into your daily habits they will deceive you and trick you in the strangest way. They usually don't have the potential for death by overdose, or physical dependence, but they sure do hold the potential to make life a paranoid cold delusion and turn one into a selfish insane and lost person who can easily make very poor life decisions.
 
I couldn`t agree with you more spacehead,that was very well put.I think that DXM is far more damaging and addictive than either Ketamine or Methoxetamine,i have seen far more reports of people coming unstuck and in a lot of trouble using DXM.

That being said Methoxetamine is not to be toyed with or used in a irresponsible manner that causes harm or effects your life in a way that is damaging,but this can prove to be very difficult with a drug that is so psychologically addictive and no doubt many users will find themselves in trouble.
 
MXE is addictive? LOL really? I'm not judging, I just don't see what you are talking about from my experience. Ketamine is addictive, being the most reliable antidepressant known to the medical world, not to mention its well rounded recreational nature. MXE though? I never enjoyed it much at all. You're not the first to claim that its addictive. I just don't get it. Maybe I'm just too old to fall in love with new substances.
 
Toast to the Spirits said:
@ Jesusgreen, have you read about Big Lurch, the hip hop artist? Basically he took too much PCP and did some pretty awful things not realizing he was doing anything wrong at the time. Its an interesting story if you haven't read it. Should come up with a quick search. These kinds of stories have scared me from trying PCP since I was a kid. That's why I've always thought of it as a hard drug. I'm a big fan of ketamine too, just scared to try PCP.
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This is so possible with overuse of MXE, you will end up having a stay in a psych would if you abuse the fuck out of it.

Yes dissociatives are hard drugs, anything that fucks with my head I consider it a hard drug. This makes opiates not a hard drug IMO, which is wrong according to most peoples interpretations.
 
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