Will this last forever? MDMA comedown

[carl0s]

Just was wondering what exactly are you guys suffering from. I have taken MDMA for a long time (20 years) on and off. I had a strange experience back in February and now have been suffering palpitations etc. I was told by doctors it could be anxiety but it is definitely giving me heart flutters etc. I have now got increased blood pressure and my although my ECG showed "abnormal" my doctor says its not significant. The last few months have been kind of difficult with some nights feeling like I am about to have a heart attack. Anyway I am still seeing doctors but have not mentioned anything about MDMA. What have you guys been experiencing?

For me, it's very hard to explain, unless I'm feeling it. This is the problem with mental illness, you cannot sympathise easily, even within yourself (when you're better, you can't recall the drama of the problem).

But, I feel fine at this moment (good medicines (maybe.. only 3 days in to a new one, which I was compelled to try because of my "problems",) (and I finished that bottle of Cava just now), but anyway, I will try to recall my problems and how debilitating they are (they are, really... this is not something that's easy to just ignore).

1. I can be talking to somebody, (a customer, or a relative, for example), and part way through them talking I feel my eyes go wide/weird, and I feel spaced out, and my stomach starts to feel weird, and I can no longer be 'part' of the social enjoyment. All of a sudden what was a pleasant transaction of normality, becomes an anxious situation for me. cue movements like scratching back of kneck, or arms, or whatever, and general feelings of displeasure with the situation.

2. towards the end of the day, or if a job is dragging on, my stomach starts to feel like I have an ulcer, usually on the left side. You could probably never understand just how bad this feels. I describe this effect as me having "a really low stress threshold".

3. When you have the above problems, and you know that this happens uncontrollably, at times that are unfitting to the situation or other people, then it can begin to make you sort of agoraphobic. You start to avoid situations in which you think it might become apparent that something is not right. You don't want people to see your weirdness.

4. Some days, I just really do feel totally weird, like I've had zero sleep. I actually feel like I'm on drugs some days when I'm not. Imagine being a kid taking drugs for the ... 1st or 2nd time, and coming home and trying to hide it from their mother who is trying to have conversations with them. It's that conspicuous feeling. Where possible, I feel compelled to confess to people that "I was a very silly boy and I messed with drugs, and I over did it, and that I am not very well because of it. I have learned my lesson the hard way and I will not be doing it again." I am sure you can see why this sometimes feels necessary, although degrading. I try to judge the people who will accept this, and who those who will write me off as a 'dirty druggy' (I don't say anything to those people).

I'll add to this as and when I encounter my problems, because right now I feel fine, and as I said before, that is the biggest problem with mental illness - and probably any illness I suppose, you always think "well it can't be that bad. I'd rather have a cold than have this sore tooth/leg/whatever", but then when you have a cold, or the flu, you feel like shit. Suddenly it's so much more serious than you could ever have imagined.

Part of the issue is that (I'm sure this is the root of mental illness): whenever *any* of these symptoms occur (even if just a small amount of one of the symptoms, like the stomach ulcer pain), then I am reminded of the "overall problem", and basically, the overall problem is reinforced as still being present.

What has surprised me, now that I have come back to edit this post, is that I have not mentioned the jaw pain that I suffered from for almost 6 months. That was actually the most prominent symptom that I had, and I actually at some times thought that *all* of my problems were attributed to something simple and physical like this. Well, buspirone has really helped with my jaw. I was clenching without realising I suppose, but anyway, that was a real problem for me for such a long time. I was even chewing on a lollypop stick, hoping it would keep my molars apart..

So I guess the jaw pain is fixed, but, maybe put that down as number 1 in the list of problems.

Please remember: all of this is down to excess and abuse and redosing. I think MDMA is wonderful. It really is penacillin for the soul, but, it *can* be dangerous* if overdone. Unfortunately I overdid it because I wasn't feeling like I was getting enough from it, and I fear that actually this might happen (tolerance). Well, if tolerance occurs, then tough shit. But don't think taking more will bring back the magic - it won't. Either that, or my MDMA was shit. Right now, I think I will be trying it again in the future, as stupid an idea as that might sound.

 

[futura2012]

Please remember: all of this is down to excess and abuse and redosing. I think MDMA is wonderful. It really is penacillin for the soul, but, it *can* be dangerous* if overdone.

This is it in a nutshell. 100% agree.

What have you guys been experiencing?

Insomnia
Depression
Anxiety
Panic Attacks
Fear
Paranoia
OCD
Appathy
Suicidal Thoughts

My long term comedown was triggered by a dose of BZP and MDMA.

I am trying medications right now to just be able to cope with life. I hope it works out.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Hey CarlOs and Futura,

I remember the days when I desperately wished for a pill to fix the problem.
In fact much of my contribution to BL arose from my endless search for information - with the hope of a valid treatment as my primary motivation.
Regretfully, I came to the understanding that if a successful treatment were available it would be WELL known among neurologists.

Most puzzling to them is the lack of effectiveness of SSRIs in people like us.
It fails to provide the primary endocrine benefits seen in other people.
This may be due to a failure in targeting the prefrontal cortex.

Tianeptine lacks many of the risks of SSRIs - it isn't nearly as activating or stimulating and is thus unlikely to cause severe anxiety as seen with some SSRI patients.
But many former SSRI users suffering through withdrawal have attempted tianeptine to aid in recovery.
Generally they report temporary benefits only.

Tianeptine modestly invokes a DA release in the Nucleus Acumbens, which is the cause of its opiate-like effects, even though it has modest effects on DA receptors.
It also lowers extracellular serotonin although it has no effect on the SERT.
Its effects are believed to be indirect and it shows no real effect on serotonin structure in the long-term.

A great paper that I haven't read - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2902200/

It probably has little risk, so it is worth a try.
And I am certainly interested in your follow up reports.
Just be prepared for a temporary effectiveness, including a fading of the opiate like effects.

Lithium...

I must advise caution LOUDLY.

I believe this is a medication that is special.
Its strong immediate effects do fade and allows the user to feel like continued dosing has little effect past the first week or two.
This is the danger.

Although you may not sense it continuing to work at all, it is slowly building up in your tissues.
After about a month of modest dosing there is a good possibility that you will need to TAPER down your doses.
Regardless of what you perceive only blood tests will reveal when you are approaching the toxic range.
And the difference between almost too much and WAY too much could be only one or two doses!

Just eating too much salty popcorn at a movie last week caused me to change abruptly!
I was fine until the next day.
Upon awaking I felt like my lithium was just invading my whole body and brain.
Utterly sickening.

I laid on the couch for six hours waiting to feel ok.
Only drinking lots of fluids and pissing it all out made me return to earth.
Trust me - this is a medication that requires supervision.

Acute on therapeutic toxicity is a term that means a lithium patient suddenly increases their dose, perhaps modestly, and enters a toxic reaction. This can reach poisoning status that involves long-term neurological impairment.

Be careful with this alkaline metal my friends.
Its first few doses will AMAZE you, probably more than the tianeptine.
I really releases BDNF in the higher brain.
But it is quite strange to experience and you must lower your doses over time.

It can hurt you, so please be VERY careful.
If you plan to forge ahead despite my warning think about it VERY logically.
The smaller the doses the slower the onset of toxicity.
No matter what, do not take doses past 180mg of the carbonate.
It may very well be that former MDMA users have a lower threshold for problems versus most bi-polar patients that use this stuff.

All of this being said, I believe that lithium had more potential to intervene in the crisis of MDMA brain damage early on.
The initial months of insanity may have been prevented entirely by this medication.
I wish I had known.

Nothing else in all of my research even comes close to its potential for early onset depression/psychosis in MDMA users.
Except ECT.

 

[futura2012]

Hey FBC as always a pleasure to read your posts.

I will for sure keep the updates coming on the tianeptine.

I hope at some point my friend cope might add a few updates.

Like you I have a feeling it may be short lived. However, I will keep the reports coming in.

Your words on Lithium are of great interest. Do you think Lithium and tianeptine would be a good mix? I was also wondering about adding a dose of Piracetam?

Just out of interest FBC what is your dose on the lithium? are you using carbonate or oritate? Are you combining other meds or supps?

In fact much of my contribution to BL arose from my endless search for information - with the hope of a valid treatment as my primary motivation.

My contribution and initial attraction to Bluelight has been a direct result of reading your posts. I have helped several people now out of some holes so I am truly thankful to you FBC and all your research and contributions.

I have made some great friends on this forum. The place has been a true drug education.

As always I am inspired by your words. I am sure one day we will all be out of this mess

 

[cope]

Hi friends,

fbc, glad you point out the risks of lithium, levels build up slow in the blood.

blood test have to be done repeatedly to measure this build up.

if you treat on your own you are at risk of kidney failure, a coma or worse.

so supervision by a doctor is very important.

as for the tianeptine, almost 2 weeks on it - great stuff ! thinking is more clear, feeling more human than before, head tingling gone.

the studies on it are somewhat contradicting seeing the one you linked to:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2005.03562.x/full

We found that the serotonin modulators fluoxetine and tianeptine, but not desipramine, increase the density of 5-HT and serotonin transporter (SERT)-immunoreactive axons in the neocortical layer IV and certain forebrain limbic areas, such as piriform cortex and the shell region of nucleus accumbens.

another interesting snippet from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12034133:

Tianeptine also normalized an impaired memory elicited by scopolamine (an antimuscarinic) or dizocilpine (non-competitive glutamatergic antagonist), while partially reversed that induced by TFMPP (5-HT(1B/1D/2A-2C/7) agonist/antagonist).

the big question remains: treatment or cure ?

i will report how it plays out, curious how i will feel when i stop it.

my current daily stack fyi:

2-3 stablons,
25mg chelated zinc twice a day,
200 mg ginkgo,
500 mg alcar
vitamin-b complex

best of luck to all of you

 

[carl0s]

I think lithium is too unsafe. I will not be trying it. I am doing 10000% better than 4 months ago.

 

[Foreigner]

Best thing you can do is just take time away from MDMA for 6-12 months. If you're prone to depression I would just avoid it completely, and only do it once in a blue moon. If your mental state is severe then an anti-depressant could help. I don't have much pharmacy knowledge, but I can tell you that I ended up on citalopram (celexa) following a couple of years of MDMA use and it stabilized me in the short term. In the past couple of years I have used nootropics and those actually helped me a lot. I took paracetam, hydergine, vinpocetine, choline, and selegiline for a while. Selegiline is an MAO and I stopped taking it, but some people get good results. I did not take nootropics at the same time as any other drug.

Diet and exercise will also play key roles in restoring your brain to balance. If you eat junk food you're going to feel worse, vs. if you try your best to prepare nutritious, home-cooked meals. You don't have to become a chef, and if you can master a few good healthy dishes then those can sustain you. Any kind of exercise that boosts your metabolic rate will help you... like weights, swimming, running, aerobics, team sports, etc.

Alcohol might depress your brain and make your symptoms worse.

The media doesn't talk about dosing because government policy is to not endorse using drugs at all. In their minds, talking about a recommended dose is equal to telling people to go do it. It's the same reason why the media doesn't tell us what the bad pills look like when someone dies, and instead just says don't do drugs. You have to do your own research, unfortunately.

 

[TooMush1]

For me, it's very hard to explain, unless I'm feeling it. .

thanks a lot of info there.

My state isn't quite like that. I knew I was taking too much and too regular. For a few days after each session I started having bad nights. Jumping just before dosing off. Constantly twitching with sometimes nerves pulsing. I also would have really negative dreams and still do a bit. Not nightmares as such but just not happy dreams.

I now suffer from occurences of high blood pressure and fast heartbeat. It might disappear for a few weeks and then suddenly its back again. Like I said before the doctors think its anxiety and have prescribed propanalol which kind of helps the fast heart rhythm. I do really miss not having MDMA and I am not sure if I could ever go back down that road. I think I might do when I am feeling good but when the fast heartbeat / high blood pressure start up, I dont want to ever go there again.

This all started after taking a large amount about 200mg followed by another 150 and another 50 in one session. I was taking that amount for about 6-12 months everytime and finally it took its toll. Its not a great feeling when you have moments that feel like you are having some kind of heart attack and the anxiety of it adds further to the problem.

 

[carl0s]

This all started after taking a large amount about 200mg followed by another 150 and another 50 in one session. I was taking that amount for about 6-12 months everytime and finally it took its toll. Its not a great feeling when you have moments that feel like you are having some kind of heart attack and the anxiety of it adds further to the problem.

How frequently? Weekly?

 

[TooMush1]

How frequently? Weekly?

At least once a month - sometimes twice. Never weekly. Bear in mind I have been at it for over 20 years on and off (was weekly during my rave days) but in the last couple of years it had started becoming far more regular.

What I did notice was my tolerance was getting far stronger, so 200mg was always needed at least to start me off. And the redosing had to increase as well to sustain the initial buzz. Recovery was taking far longer afterwards though. And problems with my sleep increased. The twitching would start along with jumping in my sleep and "nightmares".

But the whole thing kicked off after a particularly big night when I woke up in the middle of night with my heart pounding so fast. Since then its been a situation of tachycardia on and off for the last 7 months. I can feel alright for 5 weeks and then it starts again. It could be coincidence and this heart thing was always going to happen but I definitely feel its linked to the mdma.

 

[futura2012]

The twitching would start along with jumping in my sleep

I was getting that just before falling asleep.

I also noticed excess sweating when going to the gym.

That Excstasy Trial program on channel four couple of days ago suggesting MDMA does no harm to people and is 100% safe was just total BS.

 

[TooMush1]

I was getting that just before falling asleep.

I also noticed excess sweating when going to the gym.

That Excstasy Trial program on channel four couple of days ago suggesting MDMA does no harm to people and is 100% safe was just total BS.

At first I was thinking it was the lack of sleep that was causing that. But it didn't happen after other late nights it only happened after MDMA nights. At first it was only one night after the event it would happen but then it went on maybe 3-4 nights after. Now I still get it sporadically even though I haven't touched it for months.

The thing with MDMA is that I wouldn't say its particularly dangerous as such but its hard to avoid getting greedy especially when you are under the influence. If I had kept the doses lower and less frequent maybe none of this would have started. The thing is I love the absolute feeling of being off my rocker. Problem is that it takes more and more to achieve that on a frequent basis.
Its difficult to know if the medical profession understand the real risks yet apart from the obvious immediate ones. I think First Bad Comedown has given a more descriptive view of how I feel now then any doctor I have seen so far. I did even mention to one about MDMA usage and she shrugged it off completely.

My advice is this - if you are getting the twitches and jumping in your sleep then back off the mdma for now and give yourself a break and some real time for your body/brain to rest.

 

[effie]

Please do NOT take medications without medical supervision. Antidepressants can have a range of unwanted effects, and response needs to be monitored. What if you started becoming hypomanic, for example? Or developed a side effect such as GI bleeding (from SSRIs, but the point stands)? What if it induces suicidal thoughts? I understand the frustration with a medication not being available yet, and I appreciate that prescribed medications aren't necessarily always going to be appropriate, but you are on very dodgy ground here. Not got time to look into this medication right now but unlicensed meds often don't have the full set of safety data yet either, or may not have a decent body of evidence behind them.

Taking lithium unprescribed is VERY dangerous indeed. Patients have their lithium levels measured as it can be toxic and even fatal if levels become too high. Lithium can casue renal failure, convulsions, damage to foetuses and severe dehydration. Response also needs to be monitored carefully.

Please remember we are a harm reduction website; discussing new antidepressants is fine, but suggesting self-prescribing is not appropriate.

Anyways, back to the topic on hand

 

[carl0s]

Please do NOT take medications without medical supervision. Antidepressants can have a range of unwanted effects, and response needs to be monitored. What if you started becoming hypomanic, for example? Or developed a side effect such as GI bleeding (from SSRIs, but the point stands)? What if it induces suicidal thoughts? I understand the frustration with a medication not being available yet, and I appreciate that prescribed medications aren't necessarily always going to be appropriate, but you are on very dodgy ground here. Not got time to look into this medication right now but unlicensed meds often don't have the full set of safety data yet either, or may not have a decent body of evidence behind them.

Taking lithium unprescribed is VERY dangerous indeed. Patients have their lithium levels measured as it can be toxic and even fatal if levels become too high. Lithium can casue renal failure, convulsions, damage to foetuses and severe dehydration. Response also needs to be monitored carefully.

Please remember we are a harm reduction website; discussing new antidepressants is fine, but suggesting self-prescribing is not appropriate.

Anyways, back to the topic on hand

I do tell my doctor what I'm taking, and while he frowns at the idea, on both counts so far (pregabalin, followed by the addition of buspirone), he said I had chosen well, and prescribed me more of the same! It is still 9 days until I can see the doctor again. About 3 - 4 week wait! I could have seen a different doctor, but it would be like going back to step one and trying to explain everything again and how I arrived at where I'm at.

I consult my Stockley's drug interactions bible frequently too

 

[stratofortress]

Too lazy / demotivated to read the entire thread as I'm on something of a minor comedown myself, so apologies if this has already been suggested. Also, sorry for resurrecting a fairly old thread. Anyway, here's what I wanted to add:

1) Seems like your comedown is lasting months. A lot of comedown management threads suggest taking benadryl (diphenhydramine, a sleepy-causing antihistamine). I'd strongly advise against this to anyone reading this thread. Diphenhydramine increases heart rate; not something you want with stimulants in your system. This combo has had me hospitalised before.

2)Pregabalin. This is an odd drug (no effect on the brain's neurotransmitters - like antidepressants - or on GABA receptors -like benzos- I believe). It's official uses, according to the British National Formulary (BMJ - sort of reference guide for doctors detailing drug dosages, effects, contraindications etc) notes that Pregabalin, or Lyrica if we're going by trade names, is licensed for nerve pain, and more recently, anxiety. It is an abusable drug, so getting a script may not be as easy as getting a script for, say, an SSRI, but it's supposed to work absolute wonders in killing stimulant comedowns. If you're still suffering (and it sounds like you're over the worst of it anyway), ask your GP/PDoc about Pregalin.

 

[derok]

Hi all! Me again...month 7...I think, its gets better!! Im happy again, no voice change...just tms from the Night as well, but I left the meds one month ago...Hang on there all of you!!! No more chatterin. No more Parkinson, brains goes on when you stop to feel yourself weird and shitty, I need a keyboard to follow this, I will...with details..PROMISE!

 

[Dawglaw]

Hey man, great news.

Stay positive. I am on month five to the day. I am feeling a lot better also. It's still a roller coaster but I can definitely tell I'm getting closer to the end. The symptoms (anxiety, blurry vision, and derealization) are still here but are generally decreasing over time!!

Mindfulness, soberness and physical activity.

I think it's a great idea to keep posting as we continue to heal to show people that are in the beginning of this terrible experience that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[StrutterGear]

I would like to say, for everybody's benefit, that it is NOT a good idea to ignore the advice of your medical professional. I would SUGGEST that whatever you take information from these threads to your doctor and see what they think.

These is no cure all process for everybody and I think you can appreciate every case is different. I don't think advising people to come off anti-depressants etc (although I do not agree with them myself) and other prescribed drugs is a good idea. Please keep this in mind....

 

[derok]

I have to say that antidepressants helped me more than damaged me, i just came off little by little one time i feel no more rollercoaster anxiety...so i support the gp advice in the process, antidepressants have some good factors to help recovery, I think the pnly bad is the zombie-asexual feelin...use it while ur brain rewire, thats all.

 

[Dawglaw]

Good to hear.

I wonder if they speed the recovery or just provide comfort during the healing?

I feel fortunate that I was able to manage the anxiety via cbt and mindfulness. Cheers to finishing out our recovery strong!