Why You Don’t Really Hate AA

Great post! I'm very pleased to finally see someone write as un-succinctly (and if I may say thoughtfully ;)) as me ;) and I'm doing great. I was probably happiest in life three or four years ago, but I recognize that after all I've going through in the last five years has led me to a point where I can honestly say I love to be alive.

I mean, think about how minor or major depression or general anxiety disorders are treated? At the least, individual therapy with a qualified clinician and often medicine under the supervision of such a professional.

Another problem I have to AA is that, since when is admitting one's defects, turning one's self over to god (or whatever), admitting we are powerless over drugs and alcohol, etc. etc. in any way a recognized as an effective form of treatment - let alone as any form of treatment - for ANY other disease, psychological, neurological or whatever?

And yet, despite the fact "addiction" has become widely recognized for over a decade as a legitimate disease among the medical community, the vast, vast majority of so called treatment for addiction/substance (ab)(mis)use problems involve little, if any, individual counseling.

And yet those providing this so called treatment rarely have anything other than a bachloer's degree, if that at all. Whereas treatments for disorders recognized as legitimate like addiction is now, such as GAD for example, involve working with someone with AT LEAST a masters in their specific field, with required clinical experience and much more often than not a PHD specializing in the specific disorder or disease in at hand.

Instead, the norm in the recovery industry seems to be some more along these one-size-fits-all approach. More often than not, those providing the "addiction treatment" are people who got sober through the "program." With little, if any, clinical experience in the field of addiction treatment, these coucelors have merely become certified in their state as an addiction and substance abuse councelor, a designation akin to an assosiates degree plus an internship with a, again more often than not, 12 Step based rehab.

And don't even get me started on the financial and economic shit. In almost all cases, when one goes in for an "assessment" to see what sort of "treatment" they need, the person doing the assessment works for a rehab center. In almost all cases, the assessment ends with the individual being "assessed" being deed fit for the rehab center's services, the same one the "assessment worker" is employed by. In almost all cases, the most expensive and intensive (in tensive in terms of coercive and expensive) treatment offered - in-patient residential treatment (where as, in reality, only a very few minority of those susspected or known to have a drug or alcohol problem actually benefit most from residential treatment; rather the vast majority would really benefit more from an outpatient program and individual therapy, possibly medication, with the intensity of the treatment determined solely on their specific, individual needs).

But yea, I could go on and on. Anne's book is a must read for anyone interested in the recovery industry. Fuck man, as things stand at present the recovery industry and addiction treatment at large has more in common with the military industrial complex and prison industrial complex than any sort of field of medicine that it's supposedly recognized as.

However, in my humble opinion, she doesn't go quite far enough in her criticism of the present state of addiction treatment in America. The CASA Columbia study, which essentially covered the same subjects as Inside Rehab, with a nearly identical focus and very similar conclusions, is a much more important read than anything published about addiction and the treatment of addiction in America in a long time.

casacolumbia-logo.png

Press Releases: 2012

Addiction Medicine: Closing the Gap between Science and Practice
Printed from http://www.casacolumbia.org/absolutenm/?a=680​

FIVE YEAR NATIONAL STUDY REVEALS: ADDICTION TREATMENT NEGLECTED BY U.S. MEDICAL SYSTEM

SIXTEEN PERCENT OF THE U.S. POPULATION HAS THE DISEASE OF ADDICTION; 90 PERCENT OF PEOPLE WITH ADDICTION RECEIVE NO FORM OF TREATMENT AT ALL

NO NATIONAL TREATMENT STANDARDS TO ASSURE QUALITY CARE
​

NEW YORK, NY, June 26, 2012 – Forty million Americans ages 12 and older have addiction involving nicotine, alcohol or other drugs, a disease affecting more Americans than heart conditions, diabetes or cancer according to a five-year national study released today by The National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University (CASA* Columbia). Another 80 million people are risky substance users – using tobacco, alcohol and other drugs in ways that threaten health and safety.

The report, Addiction Medicine: Closing the Gap between Science and Practice, reveals that while about 7 in 10 people with diseases like hypertension, major depression and diabetes receive treatment, only about 1 in 10 people who need treatment for addiction involving alcohol or other drugs receive it. Of those who do receive treatment, most do not receive anything that approximates evidence-based care.

The CASA Columbia report finds that addiction treatment is largely disconnected from mainstream medical practice. While a wide range of evidence-based screening, intervention, treatment and disease management tools and practices exist, they rarely are employed. The report exposes the fact that most medical professionals who should be providing treatment are not sufficiently trained to diagnose or treat addiction, and most of those providing addiction treatment are not medical professionals and are not equipped with the knowledge, skills or credentials necessary to provide the full range of evidence-based services.

“This report shows that misperceptions about the disease of addiction are undermining medical care,” said Drew Altman, PhD, President, The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation who chaired the report’s National Advisory Commission. The report finds that while doctors routinely screen for a broad range of health problems like high blood pressure or high cholesterol, they rarely screen for risky substance use or signs of addiction and instead treat a long list of health problems that result, including accidents, unintended pregnancies, heart disease, cancers and many other costly conditions without examining the root cause.

This landmark report examines the science of addiction--a complex disease that involves changes in the structure and function of the brain--and the profound gap between what we know about the disease and how to prevent and treat it versus current health and medical practice.

Few Patients with Addiction Receive Quality Care

The CASA Columbia report found that while almost half of Americans say they would go to their health care providers if someone close needed help for addiction, less than six percent of all referrals to addiction treatment come from health professionals.

The report also found no clearly delineated, consistent and regulated national standards that stipulate who may provide addiction treatment in the U.S.; standards vary by state and by payer. Addiction treatment facilities and programs are not adequately regulated or held accountable for providing treatment consistent with medical standards and proven treatment practices.

Most providers of addiction treatment are addiction counselors who are not required to have any medical training. CASA Columbia’s analysis of minimum state requirements found:

  • 14 states do not require all addiction counselors to be licensed or certified;
  • 6 states do not mandate any educational degree to become credentialed;
  • 14 states require only a high school diploma or GED;
  • 10 states require an associate’s degree;
  • 6 states require a bachelor’s degree; and
  • 1 state requires a master’s degree.
Physicians and other medical professionals who make up the smallest share of providers of addiction treatment receive little education in addiction science, prevention and treatment. In fact, CASA Columbia’s report cites other research that found that of patients who had visited a general medical provider in the past year only 29 percent were even asked about alcohol or other drug use.

“Right now there are no accepted national standards for providers of addiction treatment,” said Susan Foster, CASA Columbia’s Vice President and Director of Policy Research and Analysis, who was the principal investigator for the report. “There simply is no other disease where appropriate medical treatment is not provided by the health care system and where patients instead must turn to a broad range of practitioners largely exempt from medical standards. Neglect by the medical profession has resulted in a separate and unrelated system of care that struggles to treat the disease without the resources or knowledge base to keep pace with science and medicine.”

A Costly Disease

The CASA Columbia report reveals that addiction and risky use of tobacco, alcohol and other drugs constitute the largest preventable and most costly health problems facing the U.S. today, responsible for more than 20 percent of deaths in the U.S., causing or contributing to more than 70 other conditions requiring medical care and a wide range of costly social consequences and accounting for one-third of all hospital in-patient costs. Research suggests that effective health care interventions to prevent and treat addiction would significantly reduce these costs.

In 2010 only $28 billion was spent to treat the 40 million people with addiction. In comparison, the United States spent:

  • $44 billion to treat diabetes which affects 26 million people;
  • $87 billion to treat cancer which affects 19 million people;
  • $107 billion to treat heart conditions which affect 27 million people.
“As our nation struggles to reduce skyrocketing health care costs, this report makes clear that there are few targets for cost savings that are as straightforward as preventing and treating risky substance use and addiction” said Commission Chairman Altman.

Other Notable Findings

  • Although addiction is often a chronic disease, treatment typically addresses it as an acute condition and does not include the necessary long term disease management.
  • Public perceptions do not distinguish between risky substance use and the disease of addiction.
  • Costs to federal, state and local governments amount to 11 percent of total spending; 95 cents of every dollar pay for the consequences and only 2 cents go to prevention and treatment.
Recommendations

The report offers a comprehensive set of recommendations to overhaul current intervention and treatment approaches and to bring practice in line with the scientific evidence and with the standard of care for other public health and medical conditions.

“It is time for health care practice to catch up with the science. Failure to do so causes untold human suffering and is a wasteful misuse of taxpayer dollars,” noted Director Foster.

For this study, CASA Columbia conducted a thorough review of more than 7,000 publications; in-depth analysis of five national data sets; focus groups and a nationally representative survey of 1,303 adults; state-wide surveys of addiction treatment directors and staff providers in New York State; an online survey of 1,142 members of professional treatment associations involved in addiction care; an online survey of 360 individuals with a history of addiction who are managing the disease; and an in-depth analysis of state and federal governments’ and professional associations’ licensing, certification and accreditation requirements. CASA Columbia also obtained comments and suggestions from 176 leading experts in a broad range of fields relevant to the report.

The report was funded by grants from The Annenberg Foundation; The Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fund and The Franklin Mint; The New York Community Trust; and the Adrian and Jessie Archbold Charitable Trust.

CASA Columbia is a science-based, multidisciplinary organization focused on transforming society’s understanding of and response to the disease of addiction. Founded in 1992 by Former U.S. Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare Joseph A. Califano, Jr., CASA Columbia assembles the professional skills needed to research, prevent, treat and eliminate this disease in all sectors of society. CASA Columbia conducts research and utilizes the scientific findings of others to inform Americans of the economic and social costs of substance use and addiction and their impact on each of our lives. By doing so, CASA Columbia aims to reduce the stigma attached to this disease by replacing shame with hope and give people the tools they need to prevent, treat and eliminate addiction.

CASA Columbia has issued 77 reports and white papers, published three books, conducted demonstration programs focused on children, families and schools in 37 states and Washington, DC, held 19 conferences, and has been evaluating addiction treatment and prevention programs to determine what treatment models work best for individuals.
​

Regardless of whether you got sober and have improved the quality of your life through a 12 Step based approach or more evidence based courses of treatment, do yourself a favor and give this study, entitled Addiction Medicine:
Closing the Gap between Science and Practice
a read. As the pdf (which is linked in the previous sentence is) too intimidating at over 400 pages or you're not inclined towards reading scholarly research (which there is nothing wrong with), the 37 slides accompanying the report should be easier to digest (also in pdf form). But if that too is more than you want to look at right now, at the very least, give the study's recommendations, at a mere five pages, a glance over (again as in pdf format).

And, frankly IMO, even the CASA report wasn't as scathing in its critique of the recovery industry as it might have been, I mean, given the paternalistic harm it has done our communities and our nation. Given the damage it has done, especially to those who are most vulnerable, but not only them. We must not forget that the people the recovery industry hurts the most. To those, whom under a public veil of benevolence and good will, treatment facilities, programs and practitioners have exploited economically, socially, politically, culturally and physiologically.

Not saying everyone who works for all sort of treatment centers and program are evil demon span. Far from the contrary, as it was an evidence-based, out-patient program, one which included medication and individual counseling, saved me from an untold suffering if not premature death. But... What I am saying is that my experience, described in the paragraph directly above, is far, far from the norm within the recovery industrial complex.

Just like how, within the context of the so-called "War on Drugs," where any positive outcome will be the result in a paradigm shift, from operating within the framework of public safety to that of public health (e.g. harm reduction) - eventually resulting in it's inevitable demise (no war can be fought infinitely) - so to will any positive outcome in the field of addiction treatment will likewise be a paradigm shift, from one based primarily and largely limited to the 12 Step model of "treatment" to one driven by evidence based practices, treatment in the true sense of the word.

This would be a world in which the addiction treatment isn't focused primarily on sobriety and abstinence as the primary objective. No, this would be a world where the addict's enviroment, especially when it comes to their treatment, instead is primarily concerned with nurturing and empowering individuals, geared first and foremost towards the ongoing realization of their capacities and potential.

Sobriety, while necessary certainly for many, would be a secondary priority. A world where treatment is first and foremost about maximizing the potential and quality of life of addicts, focusing on total abstinence to the degree it - as it often it must - is necessary in the course of one's treatment in achieving said primary objective.
 
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The vast majority of ppl i have met in "the rooms" were a bunch of know nothing do gooders. That is totally my opinion. However, i cant deny it works for some people, but it has never been something i could get into. Many many judgemental ppl.
 
the steps they outlined are truly specifically designed to help with addiction

No they're not. They were stolen from the Oxford Groups tenants and stretched(thinly, I might add) to twelve. In fact, the entire "AA Program" that was "specifically designed to help with addiction" was the Oxford Group repackaged so that Bill Wilson could claim the credit and copyright for someone else's cult.

Here's one link from 12stepworkbook.org

Here's another link from a christian wire article on AA's history.

Here's a third source from the AA History Lover's yahoo group

AA is pretty much the Oxford Group dogma with "alcoholism" replacing the concept of "sin". And NA is a bastardization of AA, and CA/PA telephoning ad infinitum. If it helps you, that's great, but don't spread the same lies that everyone else is.

And far to many times have I seen Honest, Open minded and willing translate as this:

Honest(If you don't accept the 12 step program as the end-all be-all of addiction treatment, you're not being honest with yourself)
Open-Minded(To whatever the 12-Step party line is)
Willing(To go to meetings and follow the program, no matters how hard the brain's built in bullshit detector is screaming)

And
I subscribe that you get out what you put in. Daily destruction required daily meetings for me where possible at least for the first 6 months & I put as much effort into abstinence as addiction. In time that abstinence turned to recovery & a lot of self exploration & discovery.

Is nothing more than an excuse the blame the patient for the treatment being ineffective. AA/NA is designed to rope people in, keep them there, and make them feel like shit for trying a different treatment method. To a lot of old-timers, it doesn't matter if members keep relapsing because they "keep coming back", even though they're the one who say that "insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results" - except when referring to AA meetings. There are still people in the rooms who honestly believe that "science" hasn't found any other way to treat addiction because of the lies that are circulated within the rooms. As in, SMART recovery, AVRT, SOS recovery, suboxone treatment, non-12 step treatment centers, and individual addiction counseling are all nonexistent. That's deception on its highest level. And there are a lot of people, myself included at one point, who honestly thought they were going to die from addiction because they were misled to believe that AA WAS in fact the only method that existed. For a "program" with members who claim to "have God on their side", that's worse than Christian missionaries - they'll at least admit that other religions exist. They'll call them bullshit, but they won't deny their existence.
 
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No they're not. They were stolen from the Oxford Groups tenants and stretched(thinly, I might add) to twelve. In fact, the entire "AA Program" that was "specifically designed to help with addiction" was the Oxford Group repackaged so that Bill Wilson could claim the credit and copyright for someone else's cult.

Here's one link from 12stepworkbook.org

Here's another link from a christian wire article on AA's history.

Here's a third source from the AA History Lover's yahoo group

AA is pretty much the Oxford Group dogma with "alcoholism" replacing the concept of "sin". And NA is a bastardization of AA, and CA/PA telephoning ad infinitum. If it helps you, that's great, but don't spread the same lies that everyone else is.

And far to many times have I seen Honest, Open minded and willing translate as this:

Honest(If you don't accept the 12 step program as the end-all be-all of addiction treatment, you're not being honest with yourself)
Open-Minded(To whatever the 12-Step party line is)
Willing(To go to meetings and follow the program, no matters how hard the brain's built in bullshit detector is screaming)

And


Is nothing more than an excuse the blame the patient for the treatment being ineffective. AA/NA is designed to rope people in, keep them there, and make them feel like shit for trying a different treatment method. To a lot of old-timers, it doesn't matter if members keep relapsing because they "keep coming back", even though they're the one who say that "insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results" - except when referring to AA meetings. There are still people in the rooms who honestly believe that "science" hasn't found any other way to treat addiction because of the lies that are circulated within the rooms. As in, SMART recovery, AVRT, SOS recovery, suboxone treatment, non-12 step treatment centers, and individual addiction counseling are all nonexistent. That's deception on its highest level. And there are a lot of people, myself included at one point, who honestly thought they were going to die from addiction because they were misled to believe that AA WAS in fact the only method that existed. For a "program" with members who claim to "have God on their side", that's worse than Christian missionaries - they'll at least admit that other religions exist. They'll call them bullshit, but they won't deny their existence.

I think I'm in love LOL ;) Great post!
 
^Thank you, although my goal was not to impress. I'm just "sick and tired of being sick and tired" of watching people unknowingly post lies and spread anecdotal statements as gospel truth.
 
^Thank you, although my goal was not to impress. I'm just "sick and tired of being sick and tired" of watching people unknowingly post lies and spread anecdotal statements as gospel truth.

My sentiments exactly. And given how you lay out your arguments, I'm hoping that sharing them with a very well written friend of mine will maybe encourage him to finally get to work on an essay critiquing AA. He's resistant to the idea, although he said he's thought about doing it forever, just because where does it end? Hopefully he's give it a solid start sooner or later though.

Again, very well said New (and to 'medicine cabinet' I have had the same experience there and feeling about it too)
 
No they're not. They were stolen from the Oxford Groups tenants and stretched(thinly, I might add) to twelve. In fact, the entire "AA Program" that was "specifically designed to help with addiction" was the Oxford Group repackaged so that Bill Wilson could claim the credit and copyright for someone else's cult.

thanks I was unaware
 
So maybe we need a new thread about Why You Really Should Hate AA? :p ;)

I'm working hard (relatively speaking, I send him an email :p) to convince my author friend to do so... The next step will be bribery, but since he doesn't use heroin any more, and I don't use heroin any more, and I'm broke, I'll probably have to resort to sexual favors... or maybe bribing him, encouraging him, with the "gifting" of some rare book or other. Yes, much better latter than the former anyways... Or maybe he'll go for some custom written poetry or short stories make just for him? Who knows, buts I'll find out what his weak spot is sooner or later:sus:

I'd be love to hear from more those people who have had successful experience with AA, to be honest.*

I mean, a lot of the foundational principles involved in the BB (empathy, mutual respect for difference, etc), regardless of whether they're actually realized in the practice of AA members, seem like they're pretty universal and normative values, in line with other spiritual philosophies like Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, etc (although I've been wrong before).

*With one caveat, that being how I AM NOT interested in hearing from those who have been brainwashed (such as by AA ideologues) into thinking they're succeeding or they've succeeded in recovery thanks to AA, as I was once brainwashed into believing AA was the ONLY way while in rehab once (but my experience there is a topic for another post).

I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up to high though. There are certainly many, many more with negative or neutral impressions than their are true success stories out there when it comes to AA.
 
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I got tired of people looking me in the face while they were sharing and saying "and young people who come here and don't hang out with everyone after, are gonna fucking relapse. They think it's all good to come in and get thirty days but they will relapse."
 
^Yup, that is just one of the reasons I have become totally disillusioned by the program... in 99% if not all meetings I ever went to, there just was too much judgement going on, people judging other people, whether arbitrarily or rightly or wrongly, just too much passing of people passing judgement on others instead of worrying about their own problems.
 
I love the one how if you use any drug it will lead you to your drug of choice... Ammm, no.. cant even count how many hard drug users (incld alcoholics) that I know use grass, occasionally or heavily, and amazingly enough they never seem to relapse on any of their drugs of choice.. I don't know about having a spiritual awakening on grass but i'm pretty sure that for allot of addicts it doesn't release their addiction all over again. Not for everyone, just saying. I think this one instance where the NA people took the AA principal of of taking a drink in any form would cause relapse and tried to wield it as well, but i know it doesn't apply to allot of drug addicts.
 
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IMHO I think a lot, if not most, of people, for lack of a better expression, simply outgrow their DOC. Look at the high degree of heroin use among American soldier who fraught in Vietnam and how by and large stopped using heroin simply upon returning stateside (not necessarily the perfect example though).

I know more than a handful of people who used heroin for a number of years, from two or three to ten or twenty, who, whether via methadone or cold turkey or whatever, just got sick of the whole game. Getting high from heroin just stopped being worth what ended up becoming something that wasn't even a high.

I think that people who exemplify the NA stereotype - where the use of any drug will inevitably lead back to using our DOC and the ultimate destruction of your life - only applies to a very, very small number of drug users. And for these individuals, the problem would seem to be more of a psychological issue rather than a drug dependency issue.
 
I get the feeling that it is very different in the USA with 12 step fellowships. Not once did I have god forced onto me. I met a few cult members but most members were like me. Normal people who have issues with the same thing.

It is not the only way to get recovery but the basic principals have served me well. What I found most helpful was being able to talk with people who understand the insanity I lived by cause they had been there.

There are certain things I cannot do if I want a good life & I accept that. Likewise I can still do other things & not "relapse".
 
I get the feeling that it is very different in the USA with 12 step fellowships. Not once did I have god forced onto me. I met a few cult members but most members were like me. Normal people who have issues with the same thing.

It is not the only way to get recovery but the basic principals have served me well. What I found most helpful was being able to talk with people who understand the insanity I lived by cause they had been there.

There are certain things I cannot do if I want a good life & I accept that. Likewise I can still do other things & not "relapse".

Thank you for your input Stevenski :) and on the topic of these values you speak of, I'd argue that the core foundational values to AA are universal, normative values. Problem is how people interpret and act upon their, often misguided, interpretation.
 
I hate the people of AA's perceptions on things. they say "were not doctors" yet judge someone who has been diagnosed with PTSD and take klonopin daily.

Such judgemental people. Been in and out of AA for YEARS and while i do agree on some parts of what they say about an addict alcoholic, and know I am one (that part about us lieing....we some LIEING motherfuckers they are right on the dot with that), I cant condone due to some of there views. Still ive met some of the best people ive ever known where the program works for them.
 
I hate the people of AA's perceptions on things. they say "were not doctors" yet judge someone who has been diagnosed with PTSD and take klonopin daily.

Part of that has to do with finding other and more personalized and healthy ways of managing my problems. Part of that has to do with not being able to take hating myself for lying to those closest to me and manipulating people, to any degree I mean. And that's not all, but you get the point.

Such judgmental people. Been in and out of AA for YEARS and while i do agree on some parts of what they say about an addict alcoholic, and know I am one (that part about us lieing....we some LIEING motherfuckers they are right on the dot with that), I cant condone due to some of there views. Still ive met some of the best people ive ever known where the program works for them.

Very well rounded and thoughtful reply LonE1. I admit, although for a significant period of this time I was forced to go to six to eight AA or NA meetings a day (90 meetings 15 days ugh - this was part of the brainwashing I referenced earlier, somewhere, many recovery centers employ formally as BMT), so I don't have as much experience, for better or worse (no, in my case this has been for the better), "within the rooms." Here is part of my take on the good AA does:

To someone with absolutely no support, financially or in terms of social capital, such as the stereotypical alcoholic who has reached her "rock bottom," AA is certainly a good thing. But that current reality doesn't mean we shouldn't be exploring or other options, for those sorts of destitute folks to celebrities with oodles and oodles of money to be wasted, to everyone in between.

So, while AA isn't simply a relic of the past that must be abolished, but neither is it something that should necessarily be considered a timeless standard of support (as it is according our American political, legal, criminal justice, religious, etc institutions of our times).

In retrospect, such the so-called treatment I initially received for my problems was highly inappropriate. Had I gone to AA on my own, for my own reasons and desire, I might have got something more out of it. But that wasn't how I was introduced. And it would seem I'm in the majority. But I digress...

This is where the dark side of AA comes in. After being completely honest and truly putting myself out there concerning my heroin use to this "therapist" (first person I told about it in five years, prior to which no one had a clue), he immediately instructed my mother (I'd literally just graduated and was living at home). Unfortunately he misled and manipulated my mom into doing what he said, as the AA Nazi that he was.

It depends on the individual practitioner of course, especially when the patient, such as in my case, under their care is extraordinarily vulnerable. Likewise, the patient's family family is no less vulnerable to the practitioner to whom they have entrusted their loved one. In most cases the family has little to no experience with addiction and (modern, clinical) its treatment.

And lest we not forget! The family comes into the practitioner's office, totally unsure of what they should do, desperate for answers. They are scared, yes scared. For their loved one as well as what it will mean for their own selves.

You see: AA's methodology is nothing more than an instrumental, a tool. How it is uses, whether it ends up helping or hurting people, depends on the practitioner. Where he is a fascist ideologue or genuinely open to doing whatever is best for the patient, whether recommending AA in-patient or (more likely) some more appropriate (lest we forget, in-patient rehab is the more effect and approach course of treatment for a very small minority of us with "drug problems").

I have a feeling things could have turned out much differently if there had been people around me that I'd found via AA who I could depend on and were mere ideologies or, for lack of a better expressions, stupid fucks.

I forget who, I think it was paups on opioiphile, who coined the expression (to my knowledge): "thieving junkbox". I like that expression, which embodies the worst of what it means to be a dope fiend while not getting overly distraught about it. Levity is important when people are scared, when they are desperate, vulnerable, essentially placing their lives in the hand's of another.

But yea, thieving junkbox, I don't think there's any remotely sane person on this earth who, living such a life, would say they're content. It eats one up inside every time we do something that we know it wrong, such as stealing from our loved one. Notice I do not say using heroin is wrong or eats us up inside, on the contrary. Such return again and again because it released one from their internal struggle, freeing one from self-hatred, if only for a few hours. But the relief provides in those few hours means a lot, even the more so, to a thieving junkbox, for he whom suffer incommunicable pain. A pain that is evil and recognized as such, yet necessary, necessary for one to attain any moment of peace.

That's a big reason why heroin just stopped being enjoyable in any way. Although I never became that extreme propagandized archetypical dope fiend, the mere fact I had to lie and manipulate people for five years to hide from them the fact I used heroin was too much without all that other bullshit.

This is really why I genuinely lost interested in anything heroin related, it just became something that ceased to be in anyway recreational or valuable for me. The costs outweighed the benefit, in other words. This sort of analysis, it's a simple distinction that all but only those very few truly far-gone individuals can easily make on their own, without necessarily anyone's help. Although help doesn't and should hurt either.

My mom says the same thing about her experience with Al-Anon as you LonE1. And I'm sure there are many more of people like you out there. It's very interesting, coming from my own perspective, given how my experience with AA ended up being extremely detrimental to my mental and physical health.

For example: In some groups "getting 13th stepped" is apparently colloquial for rape, sexual abuse and sexually assaulted - NOT consensual sex or anything like that which the expression seems 13th stepping would seem to general mean, even if the practice is inherently about people in positions of authority taking advantage of people in positions of vulnerability. In my case, about two months after getting formally antiquated with the program, going through an 12 Step AA in-patient program, staying clean and sober, getting a sponsor, doing step work, getting brain washed, all that garbage for someone in my position, all this ended up in my being raped by my "grand sponsor." As a result I contracted a number of STDs.*

Maybe now you can understand how I might have once loathed the fellowship. Now I just don't approve, to put it modestly. I don't fucking give a shit about it. It's just never black and white, not quite so simple as AA being good or evil, even if I'm more temped to see it as the latter.

Just look at our own experiences of AA/NA. Just like how my mom benefited from it, so did you - actually she has probably benefited from the program than anyone I've every met (or maybe because it's just that she's my mom and I'm her son). On the other end of the spectrum, I ended up having a totally different experience.

This is partially why I am so interested in hearing from people like you. Not just people who have stayed sober and according to that narrow definition are "succeeding" in their "recovery," I hear enough from people like that whether I like it or not. Same goes for the bigots and ideologues I've like that AA Nazi so-called-therapist I mention earlier (who is a disgrace to and perfect example of how horrible drug treatment in the US can be).

Unless you're able to conceptually speculate to some objective or empirical - not just "honest" - degree, and thoughtfully reflect upon your experiences in AA, I could care less. Thanks for the reply LonE1 :)

*Thankfully that guy got fucked (figuratively in the legal sense and even more literally I'm sure in country, even don't think this is right even considering what he did to people such as much who are in one of the most vulnerable periods of "recovery"). And thankfully I ended up finding a good program that was perfect for me. Wither their help I've since been treated properly so that I no long carry any signed of said STDs. So don't worry all you BL beauties, you can sleep with me without any regrets ;)

On a different note... Word to the wise: If you have ANY inkling that you might have any STD or have shared needles/cookers or Hep/HIV, GET TESTED! I know more than a few people, for instance, who've been diagnosed with Hep C, probably from sharing needles, got tested and treated soon after and ended up completely beating the disease. Amazing what they're doing with research on and treatment for Hep C, HIV and other STD type diseases.
 
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Cant deal after I read and participated in this thread, went to meeting last night and could no longer tell my-self it wasn't brain washing.. signs, signs, everywhere there's signs.. I'm done.. going to make amends to the few people i love that my use hurt.. Yeah i didn't sacrifice my morals with a huge habit.. Follow my heart and live right.. The END.
 
VFT funny thing I actually went to a meeting with someone my mom had met/heard about, and good things this time, via her Al-Anon involvement. It was actually pretty nice, not good, but I for the first time was able to leave not focused on the bull shit or negative aspects of the meetings, speeches, people, etc. I shared about how I'd been "sober" (as it was an AA meeting, and didn't put myself out there by mentioning anything Suboxone/Bupe) for over fifteen months and yet hadn't attended a meeting in this time. I also mentioned how I had quit smoking and the positive, subjective effects cessations has been on my mental health. I did let it out that cessation has been so successful this far thanks to Chantix and no bad side effects.

On a related but totally different topic, it's not like the Chantix doesn't have any side effects. I does seem to make me have/remember extremely VIVID dreams. Fortunately I'm somewhat experienced in encountering vivid, lucid dreaming. That's due to my prior regiments of meditation and melatonin, experimentation with laughing gas as well as hallucinations created by increased breathing of CO2.

When I have bad dreams now, especially when I wake up to a detailed memory of them, it's truly been nightmarish. Yet, whether I wake up in my bed scared shit-less - feeling like I was lost and running for my life - or I wake up to the memory of intensely soothing, therapeutic dreamscapes, all it really does is fascinate me.

Anyways, past sharing, clapping, donating a bunch of change (maybe $3usd) and eating a tiny piece of shitty so-called stale pastry, I exerted next to no energy on anything other than talking, and bonding, with others I share passions with. And that was possible largely because they shared something specific that caught my eye or they said something before or after the meeting directly to me. Probably wouldn't have had such a positive experience if I had not shared. Although in patented "new comer" style, as I apparently had no qualms with identifying openly as one - if only for the reason of pacifying my AAer audience.

It never ends :p
 
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