Why You Don’t Really Hate AA

Jabberwocky

Frumious Bandersnatch
Joined
Nov 3, 1999
Messages
1,220
Location
Looking-Glass Land
The Fix said:
I’ve seen too many people attack the program that saved my life—often in comments fields on The Fix. But their problem isn’t AA itself; it’s some of AA's members.

I got sober because of Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe with every pore in my body that had it not been for the program, I wouldn’t have been able to put down drugs and alcohol over 12 years ago and wouldn’t be able to live the life I do today.

For a long time, out of what I then considered respect for the 11th tradition, I didn’t publicly identify as a member. In my first novel, Party Girl (which was so autobiographical, I didn’t even bother to act coy about it), I actually switched various AA-related words to protect the program: I used “guidelines” for “steps,” and “apologies” for “amends.” And when I went on TV to promote that book or to talk about the addictions of various celebrities, I always explained ahead of time that if the story they wanted to focus on involved AA, I couldn’t go on, because AA was an anonymous program.

I said the same thing in late 2010, when I was hired by The Fix.

And then, slowly, my perspective changed. As my years of sobriety—and talking and writing about addiction—continued, I began to realize that my desire to not mention AA had less to do with respecting the 11th tradition than with protecting AA from any more of the judgment was being heaped upon it.

From what I hear—mostly from anonymous commenters on The Fix—AA is a harsh, religious, recriminating cult.

Before I came to AA, I considered it a cult for Jesus-worshipping freaks, who had nothing better to do with their time and needed something—anything—to cling to. Whatever I heard about the program (they hold hands! They pray! In unison!) I used to fuel that preconception. And that preconception kept me buying books about how AA didn’t work, while I slowly annihilated myself with years of drinking and cocaine.

There seem to be as many ways to interpret the 11th tradition as there are people in AA. Some swear that it means we should never give our last names when we talk about being sober; others say it means we’re allowed to say we’re in AA, so long as we’re not doing it in the press, or on the radio or in films. Still others preach that it means not outing someone else as a member. And there are those who insist that it means never telling anyone anywhere that we’re sober. AA-history obsessives will often tell us how necessary the 11th tradition was, back when alcoholism and addiction were considered horribly shameful; some insist that we still need to honor this tradition, while others say we should scream about our disease from the rooftops, to eradicate any left-over shame.

My own feeling is this: AA’s founders couldn’t have predicted the Internet or the world we live in now, where everything is everyone’s business. Bill and Bob didn’t know that one day anonymous online commenters would attack their program. When the traditions were written, AA was small, young and fragile. Today, it isn't. And while many have tried to ignore, defame and destroy it since then, the fact is, they haven’t had much success.

But still, because AA doesn’t have a spokesperson, it can't fight back or respond to the criticisms that are constantly hurled at it. So at a certain point, it seemed like it was okay—in fact, better than okay—to start being open about the program on this site, and allowing those who felt their lives improved by it to share that.

In short, I didn’t want to give people out there who were like me—that is, judgmental and alcoholic—any more reason to judge AA than they already had. Maybe, I thought, if we publicly shared how the program had saved us, we’d help open people’s minds. Whether that mission has been successful, I have absolutely no idea.

Trust me—my positive reaction to AA shocked the hell out of me at first. I honestly couldn’t believe that I didn’t encounter a bunch of glassy-eyed cultists, or tie-dyed followers of some New Age guru forcing newcomers to hand out flowers at the airport.

Well, let me clarify. I did encounter some people who lived up to my preconceptions—or were even worse—but they were not the majority. No, the overwhelming majority were the sort of people I’d been seeking my whole life: funny people, smart people, self-aware people—people who suffered from the same problems I did, but who knew how to talk about and deal with them in ways I hadn’t yet learned.

The last person I ever thought I’d be was Susie AA—the girl sitting in the front row of the meeting, or at a coffee shop highlighting her favorite passages in the Big Book. But that’s who I became. Turns out, I’d always been waiting for someone to give me rules for living beyond those my family had presented—which were mainly about going to an Ivy League school, making six figures at your first job and suing people before they sued you. Though I didn’t know it consciously at the time, I’d been seeking out information about how it was my self-obsession—well, self-obsession plus stimulants and depressants—that was making me so miserable.

I'm well aware that this is apparently not most people’s experience when they come to AA. From what I hear—mostly from anonymous commenters on The Fix—AA is not the welcoming, loving, non-judgmental solution to a miserable life that I discovered. Instead, it’s a harsh, religious, recriminating cult, filled with controlling assholes who are determined to believe that their way is the only way.

In some ways, I understand. After all, I have met, in AA, horrible, judgmental people, who are determined to believe that their way is the only way. And I’ve met, as you’d expect, people who are mentally ill.

I have been told, by a woman who was sponsoring me, that I wasn’t “really sober” because I was on anti-depressants, and asked to immediately get out of her car.

I have been ruthlessly shamed by another sponsor, because she put me on “dating restriction” for a year (not my first year of sobriety, by the way) and, nine months into it, I kissed a guy. She told me I hadn’t surrendered and “fired” me outside a meeting as I sobbed.

I have listened to women preach from podiums about how determined they are to help everyone they can—then had them not return my calls after they’ve agreed to sponsor me.

I have shared deeply personal things in meetings and had people approach me days or weeks later to give me unsolicited, offensive feedback about what I was doing that had caused me to feel the way I did.

The program is what you find in the Big Book—not the people who make up the fellowship.

I have been pulled aside by old ladies after I’ve shared and told that I was sharing “wrong.” And I’ve heard about even worse things: AA icons sleeping with newcomers, sponsors giving sponsees drugs—you name it.

But not one of these things has caused me to hate AA.

Maybe that’s because I was lucky enough to meet some genuinely, ridiculously amazing people when I first came in. Maybe it’s because I got sober in LA, where there is, arguably, less shame and more cheer about sobriety than anywhere else, so that the overall joy made it easier to overlook the sicker folk. Maybe it’s because I was so desperate when I got to AA that I couldn’t afford to think any differently.

Yes, there are assholes in AA. But you find them everywhere. And while AA, by the very nature of what brings people to the rooms, may have a higher percentage than some other places, that doesn’t make AA the asshole. If those people weren't in AA, they would just be somewhere else, doing their best to give that somewhere else a bad name. The program is what you find in the Big Book—not the people who make up the fellowship.

Hey, you can still hate AA. But if you go there, and encounter someone who tells you that you have to get sober his way, or shames you for not doing exactly what she says, I just ask that you consider going to another meeting or reaching out to another person—to consider that this individual might be the problem. The people in AA whose lives seem to be working are, from what I can tell, those who remember that good AA’s don’t tell anyone how to do anything; who reinforce the fact that the steps are merely suggestions; who don’t say you must believe in some almighty God, but just ask you to consider that perhaps you’re not the one in charge of everything.

All of which is to say that maybe, just maybe, your hatred is misdirected. At the very least, now you can direct it toward me instead of the program. After all, I’m the one telling you that you don’t feel the way you say you do.

Fix columnist Anna David is the author of Party Girl, Bought, Reality Matters and Falling For Me. She served as The Fix's Executive Editor for over two years, and has written here about sex addiction and gambling addiction, among many other topics.
http://www.thefix.com/content/hate-alcoholics-anonymous-aa91344?page=all

Well, umm, no...

I really do hate AA.

LOL, in fact, this article is a great example of why I hate AA, nice work Anna :\

It sure is nice to know how AA has saved that author's life, along with many others I'm sure. Then again, such folks are faaaaaar from the majority (most stop on their own and with support of family and friends).

In my case, these same organizations ended up almost killing me (and I mean LITERALLY, both in the sense of killing my spirit/mind/body). Obviously it didn't end up happening, so what ended up "saving" me you ask? DXM, Piracetam and the support of good people like some of the family and friends I have become close with, here on BL (shout out to Thou!) and IRL...

----------------------------------------------

People are just people. I don't hate people. I hate bigotry and white supremacists, for example, but not people - even those who practice or espouse qualities I hate (they'd just dumb asses). Just like how I hate arbitrarily coercive or implicitly paternalistic organizations and institutions that stifle individuality and creativity, employing what the elder Burroughs would term control, where anything but complacency to any caste system structured around the continued dominance of a ruling class that enslaves persons: physically, through denying workers the fruits of their labor as well as culturally, through colonizing the minds of these same impoverished souls.

Those are the sort of things I hate, not people. People should not be hated.*

[/rant]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But their problem isn’t AA itself; it’s some of AA's members.

same difference imo; they tend to be the dominant members

I don't necessarily hate them. I hate the fact I was legally punished for refusing to attend their meetings. I hate the fact that they've been co-opted by a venal and tyrannical government. I hate that they foist abstinence on everyone, even on people who either don't need or can't handle abstinence. I hate the fact that their acolytes are ubiquitous and dominant in the rehab community. I hate the local coziness of their members with law enforcement. I could go on, but I want to stay objective.
 
True, I prefer to see with eyes unclouded by hate, because everything is so much clearer.

Hate... At best it's a waste of time and worst how you really feel about yourself (among other things, I'm sure)
 
I'd be ok with the author sponsoring me though

Anna-David-ap1.jpg
 
The life of an AA member still revolves around addiction and the drug they used to use. You're trading your addiction to a substance, one that dominates your life, for an addiction to group sessions and faulty doctrine, that, as well, also dominates your life. They make their entire life about NOT doing something. It seems rather unhelpful, to me.

Sure, if it works/worked for you, great, all the more power to you. But I cannot fathom ever welcoming such a thing.

Beyond the fact that addiction to these group sessions is promoted and, really, necessary to the way AA works, they also have doctrine that, IMO, is controlling, completely imperfect, and, to an extent, even religious. I see these as faults in any doctrine.

Seriously, I think AA has a lot in common with many cults.
 
A close friend of mine did AA and it helped him a lot, but I have to admit, all the paperwork he showed me and the expanation of the 12 step process seemed like koolaid. I asked him about the God part because that would be a bit much for me, and he said that a lot of outsiders misinterpret that. You're expected to embrace a higher power but it doesn't necessarily have to be God. Someone in his meeting framed it as the higher power of his body's wisdom to recover from years of abuse.

My friend drank in secret and mostly at night. I think for him AA was more about social connections and being able to talk openly than having to hide in isolation. Where we part ways in thinking is when AA says that abstinence is the only way. Some people are drinking to cover up bigger issues because they don't know how to deal with those. The point is that these substance users have become abusers, but it's possible to return to substance use that is moderate. AA would not be needed if society weren't so shameful toward substance abusers. Most people suffer because of isolation, not necessarily because of the drug itself.

It's also lame how they separate NA and AA, as if alcohol is not in the same league as other drugs, when IMO it is in spades.

Anyway... if AA works for some people great, all the power to them. I too take issue with the courts forcing people into it when they don't want it or even need it.
 
Where we part ways in thinking is when AA says that abstinence is the only way. Some people are drinking to cover up bigger issues because they don't know how to deal with those. The point is that these substance users have become abusers, but it's possible to return to substance use that is moderate. AA would not be needed if society weren't so shameful toward substance abusers. Most people suffer because of isolation, not necessarily because of the drug itself.

Indeed. When I was in NA I thought that I was always on the verge of a permanent and catastrophic relapse. But I've learned that self-control and self-limitation is not only possible, but natural. I'm actually always on the verge of a good time! =D

Somebody states in the comments that the success rate of AA is lower than the rate of spontaneous remission. I'd like to see some actual research on this.

Again, I'd have no problem with them if people weren't forced to deal with them.
 
I'd be ok with the author sponsoring me though

Anna-David-ap1.jpg

Yuuuuup, there are two of these authors (or maybe three) who do a lot of writing for the fix and they're well, shall we say, "pretty pretty" (whatever the nicer equivalent of smoking hot is) which is the reason I keep up on them der ;)

btw check out the comments (if you literally have nothing to do and want to procrastinate and shit). They're pretty hilarious. People are fucking nuts, although this is nothing new to me. There were many good points made, I will admit.
 
Yeah...I still dislike NA. Never been to AA.
It's got nothing to do with the members/people who go there, who are actually the best part of the thing IMO, and more to do with the fact that I hate the whole 'higher power' concept and that of being powerless to my addiction. It annoys me.
I know AA/NA are fantastic for some people which is why I think it's a great organisation, but if we want to hate it, she/they should let us =D
 
AA worked for me for couple years till I realized I didn't have any friends outside of AA. I'd go to meetings and listen to people bitch about the same things over and over. Then we'd all get to listen to the "old timers" vomit their words of stupid fucking wisdom. If you ever asked a question that was too difficult to answer they'd tell you you fucked up on your 4th step and you were gonna relapse and die or go to jail. Fuuuck it!! It might work for some but I'm doin' fine without AA.
 
The life of an AA member still revolves around addiction and the drug they used to use. You're trading your addiction to a substance, one that dominates your life, for an addiction to group sessions and faulty doctrine, that, as well, also dominates your life. They make their entire life about NOT doing something. It seems rather unhelpful, to me.

Sure, if it works/worked for you, great, all the more power to you. But I cannot fathom ever welcoming such a thing.

This is why I drank yesterday after 5 months going to meetings 3-4 times a week. I finally realized that I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my life tied down to a program of recovery. If I have to be tied down to something for life, I'd prefer it be something with some satisfactory value. The straw that broke this camels back was when I realized that I'm 27 now, and I will probley die around 70-80, so thats roughly 40-50 years of sobriety! Also I got tired of isolating myself in order to stay sober, and I didn't see a point in spending new years at an AA meeting with a bunch of old alcoholics. I've learned a lot about myself these last five months and one of the biggest things I've learned about myself is that my ADD is the reason I would always want to drink. It wasn't because I was an alcoholic, it was because alcohol works at slowing my mind down and controlling my ADD. It totally makes sense why I would want to drink. So now I'm going to take what I've learned from AA and my sober time and try to live a better life of my own understanding. A life that makes sense to me and isn't spent living in the past everyday. Those are my thoughts on AA.
 
^Your mind is a very powerful tool. Use it. I say that because, in the "program," one common theme that's preached is that your mind is your enemy, it tricks you, or the addicted mind I guess is what their talking about. But regardless, if you have an addicted mind, it's still your mind, so that means there is something "wrong" or handicapped (hence the disease model's appeal). But fuck that. For so many people, their mind, their will power, their strength, this is what is going to get them through the tough time and endure. Not saying we don't need help from our fellows and peers, just that there are a lot of other people out there who can support folks in situations such as ourselves who aren't inoculated with the fellowship's dogma.

I'm glad to hear you're on your way to bigger and better things in life... Funny how a lot of folks in AA/NA like to talk about how their drug use/drinking ended up leading to them isolating themselves. But you're absolutely right. From my experiences in similar situations, I became waaaay more isolated when I wast heavily involved in the AA/NA program than I ever was with heroin or any other drug. Kinda ironic how much more fulfilling and multidimensional my life was when I was using heroin, especially considering how it changed for the worse when I got sober, and my life became totally focused on this one thing (sobriety), albeit in a coercive way (e.g. I acquiesced to the wills of others, again my better judgement which, in retrospect, seems to have proven correct).
 
Can a ex heroin addict ever drink alcohol again without it becoming a problem or leading back down that dark path of drug-use? I ask this for myself because I too had a few H runs and boy oh boy can you go down fast w/ that shit. I'm really anti-drug right now to be honest. Just give me my wine, beer, etc. and I'll be satisfied (so i hope).
 
Everyone is unique upon themselves.

Given this is the interwebs, I can say no more than,
"Only you, with effort and time, establish yourself. I wish you a heartfelt best of luck really <3 To be alive is to suffer, yet life is not so simply suffering. Life is an opportunity. Every single decision we take, whether under duress or after careful analysis, that one choice, that is the essence of life. This is life: You chose to live the best life for yourself. Whether this means being in AA/NA, this is your life, completely abstaining from drugs and alcohol, or, otherwise, so be be it!"

It's your life. How can I, who has no idea who you are, can offer anything approaching sound advice. Drinking a beer, some wine, an aperitif, spirit, ethanol in any form, it won't necessarily lead to your demise. Could it? Would it? Given my situation it would be inappropriate to speculate further.

As a individuals, as a collection or them as a whole, in the grande scheme of things they probably don't matter all too much. For that exactly reason there is nothing to worry about this. It just is. when it "isn't," so be it. That will be it.
 
Can a ex heroin addict ever drink alcohol again without it becoming a problem or leading back down that dark path of drug-use? I ask this for myself because I too had a few H runs and boy oh boy can you go down fast w/ that shit. I'm really anti-drug right now to be honest. Just give me my wine, beer, etc. and I'll be satisfied (so i hope).

is it you calling it "that dark path", or is it the programming? I think that's the question you need to answer. If there's a true threshold of helplessness there, then I think you need all the help you can get so as to not step over it. But if you find that at no place are you ever truly powerless, then building self-control and self-limitation is perhaps the best thing.
 
The life of an AA member still revolves around addiction and the drug they used to use. You're trading your addiction to a substance, one that dominates your life, for an addiction to group sessions and faulty doctrine, that, as well, also dominates your life. They make their entire life about NOT doing something. It seems rather unhelpful, to me.

Sure, if it works/worked for you, great, all the more power to you. But I cannot fathom ever welcoming such a thing.

Beyond the fact that addiction to these group sessions is promoted and, really, necessary to the way AA works, they also have doctrine that, IMO, is controlling, completely imperfect, and, to an extent, even religious. I see these as faults in any doctrine.

Seriously, I think AA has a lot in common with many cults.

my thoughts exactly.... yes i was a junkie in my past but i refuse to define myself as a junkie for the rest of my life
 
AA/NA/CA/Whatever-A is nonsensical insanity. It's thought-shriveling bullshit, pure and simple. I would rather shoot heroin and die from an overdose than go to 12-step meetings for the rest of my life and live that lifestyle again.
 
I guess I'm the oddball of the group but I really enjoy my local NA meetings. I have made a lot of friends through the meetings who are my age and are dealing with the same shit that I am. Do we go to meetings often? Yes we do, because without the meetings I don't really have anything in my life that is geared towards recovery because left to my own thoughts I'll gladly lead myself to addiction and relapse which I'm currently in a ~2 month heroin and cocaine hardcore iv relapse. I like it because it has allowed me to make friends and go out with people who want to be sober like me. As a 22 year old college student I find it very hard to make friends who want to do things on the weekends that don't involved doing x y and z drugs or getting completely shitfaced. Yeah I'm not down with the whole 12 steps and higher power thing but at my local NA and AA meetings they aren't shoved down your throat. We mostly just choose a topic and discuss it towards recovery or if people have some things they'd like to get off their chest we help them through their struggles. The way you guys seem to bash the programs is really eye opening to me because honestly the meetings around me aren't anything like what you guys seem to be describing. But hey the bottom line is if it works and helps you achieve your goals and you enjoy it then great, more power to you. If you don't then you don't and thats perfectly okay too, it is your life ya know? I must say I do enjoy when people in the program say "Where else can you get this kind of addiction therapy for $1 a session?". Because I truly do get a lot out of the meetings, way more than id get for paying a $30 copay to see an actual counselor.
 
Top