Opioids why doesn't kratom cause respiratory depression?

[onmyway]

i have been wondering this for some time. if it really acts on the mu receptor then there should be some respiratory depression. has anyone experienced this with the super potent extracts?

any insight on this is appreciated. searches have not yielded much.

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Its acts mainly on delta opioid receptors, not mu and that's why it produces less respiratory depression than most mu agonists I presume.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^just to clear it up a little for some others it's the Mitragynine alkaloid (most active alkaloid in the plant) which acts primarily on the mu, though through it's oxidation to mitragynine-pseudoindoxyl works as a selective delta agonist with little affinity to the mu and kappa.

 

[onmyway]

i was not aware that delta receptors could produce euphoria. i vaguely remember something about antidepressant activity though.

so kratom is likely activating mu and delta? come to think of it, i have noticed marked antidepressant effects at sub-recreational doses.

 

[Jabberwocky]

it does has some adrenergic action(stimulant like) in lower doses. and DOR's produce some analgesia though much less than mu agonists.

the other major alkaloid which contributes to mu action in kratom is 7-hydroxymitragynine. it's found in much smaller amounts than the aforementioned in my last post but is much more potent mu agonist.

 

[onmyway]

yeah, the mu activity is definitely there at high doses so i would expect there to be a drop in respiratory rate. does the delta receptor somehow cancel out the respiratory effects of mu?

 

[stray cat]

so is it 7-hydroxymitragynine or mitragynine that causes most of the mu activity?

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^7-HM is a much stronger mu agonist than mitragynine but there is substantially more mitragynine than 7-HM.

<snip>

I edited out incorrect information, the correct info is below

 

[stray cat]

thanks for the response cane! i'm always reading conflicting info about which alkaloid is primarily responsible for the mu agonistic properties of kratom. i wonder what the relative amounts of each are in most commercial kratom

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Ok, so I butchered the statistics above...

"The potency [of 7-Hydroxymitragynine], calculated using pD (2) values, was 30- and 17-fold higher than that of mitragynine and morphine, respectively. Antagonism of naloxone on concentration-response curves for 7- hydroxymitragynine confirmed its opioid effect. These results suggest that the opioid effect of M. speciosa is mostly based on the activity of 7- hydroxymitragynine." source

I didn't find the percent of kratom that is 7-HM but on mitragynine's wiki page it said its the most abundant alkaloid and .25% of kratom by weight.

^just to clear it up a little for some others it's the Mitragynine alkaloid (most active alkaloid in the plant) which acts primarily on the mu, though through it's oxidation to mitragynine-pseudoindoxyl works as a selective delta agonist with little affinity to the mu and kappa.

The oxidation is especially present in preparations that have been sitting on a shelf for a long time. Fresh kratom will oxidize far less so the mitragynine will produce more mu agonism and less delta agonism.

 

[onmyway]

does anyone know the answer to the question?

 

[Cane2theLeft]

Since its a mu agonist it will produce respiratory depression if the dose is sufficiently high.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The oxidation is especially present in preparations that have been sitting on a shelf for a long time. Fresh kratom will oxidize far less so the mitragynine will produce more mu agonism and less delta agonism.

you're right, i remember reading that part in the wiki entry. it didn't specify what amount of time and conditions it would take to the point of no use, from my dodgy memory yesterday.

does anyone know out of interests sake how long it would take a fresh batch of kratom to lose most of it's potency?

 

[Cane2theLeft]

^i believe its still useful, just produces more delta agonism and less mu agonism.

 

[Jabberwocky]

gotcha, so still some analgesia obviously just a limited amount of euphoria if any.

i've never tried the plant or an extract living in australia. i'd be interested in trialing it's analgesia properties.

 

[cocamatic]

It can cause that....

I've had some pretty potent enhanced Thai varieties can feel sorta like a mix of hydro and oxycodone... I felt speedy, but the respiratory depression was very real, especially when I had to walk up a hill... lol

 

[onmyway]

^ im talking about the kind of respiratory depression where you fall asleep and stop breathing. then in the morning your girlfriend wakes up next to your cold blue corpse.

i have searched and never found anything like this with kratom, yet all other opiates that i can think of have the potential to kill you.

considering there are some very potent extracts on the market, i think that if a lethal overdose could happen it would have by now. yet there are no such reports. kratom must have some pretty interesting pharmacology, like how does it agonize mu receptors without killing people that overdo it? how does the delta receptor figure into this?

 

[stray cat]

^ im talking about the kind of respiratory depression where you fall asleep and stop breathing. then in the morning your girlfriend wakes up next to your cold blue corpse.

lol, the happy kind of respiratory depression

i agree with you about the pharmacology being interesting. pretty curious little plant all around

 

[QuasiStoned]

^ im talking about the kind of respiratory depression where you fall asleep and stop breathing. then in the morning your girlfriend wakes up next to your cold blue corpse.

i have searched and never found anything like this with kratom, yet all other opiates that i can think of have the potential to kill you.

considering there are some very potent extracts on the market, i think that if a lethal overdose could happen it would have by now. yet there are no such reports. kratom must have some pretty interesting pharmacology, like how does it agonize mu receptors without killing people that overdo it? how does the delta receptor figure into this?

I'm not sure why exactly but kratom seems to have some sort of safety mechanism. Maybe it's still possible to overdose and die from respiratory depression but in higher doses it tends to cause nausea and dizziness so maybe people tend to vomit if they consume way too much. Another possibility is that the stimulant effects may speed up your breathing. I know it increases your heart rate and causes sweating so it might help to keep you breathing if you take a lot.

In my experience, I only came close to nodding once on kratom and it wasn't anything like nodding on pods/morphine. In most cases, the stimulation combated a lot of the sedation when I was using the kratom.