🤝 Cultural 🤝 Why do you think Heroin & Cocaine have stood the test of time?

[sadmachine]

With all the radical advancements in technology, it baffles me a little that Heroin and Cocaine in western culture haven't budged in probably 100+ odd years.

Sure methamphetamine, MDMA, Ketamine, Nitrous and the endless list of analogues and other subs i've left out have come along (particularly meth has dominated over heroin the past 10-20 years down under)

But one thing remains; heroin/cocaine/hell even valium is as popular as ever and hasn't gone anywhere

We seem to have developed all these analogues and alternatives, but it just surprises me that non of these seem to eclipse the originals. For example Fentanyl & Nitazenes, despite being so much more insanely potent seemingly seem to be much less preferred by long term opiate users. Similarly, from what I hear most of the RC benzos are much less favoured than their originals too.

Maybe I'm just too uninformed/naive; but where are all the 21st century superdrugs? The ones that improve on the existing and minimise the harm/sides, was I born too soon or are there some circumstances I may not be aware of that make improving on these substances impossible? (Big Pharma's, Cartels, etc)

 

[KurtAurelius]

I think because we have made no progress in drug reform across the globe, the progression in replacement analogies have been worse.

Because drugs are a business it makes sense to sell more potent drugs to cut up, and safety is not a concern.

I’m fully convinced we would have improved versions, if the world pulled its finger out and stopped wasting so much time on so many things but here we are, disappointed as always because of some fucking idiots in suits.

 

[TheLightBringer]

The morphinans just so happened go be vastly more euphoric than fent and zenes, due to their difference in MU1 and MU2 opioid receptor binding and probably other reason like the amount of histamine release causing a difference in euphoria, Im not super knowledgeable on opioid pharmacology though.

Another reason is probably that theyre naturally available and culturally ingrained, humans have been using cocaine and morphinans since we first discovered that these plants were psychoactive. With that said though I think that cocaine is a totally overrated stimulant and there are vastly better NDRIs and NDRAs out there. Heroin is still one of the best opioid/opiates though.

As for valium we dont yet know if it will stand the test of time, I think as we develop (from a therapeutic standpoint) ”better” less addictive and less recreational GABAergics, benzos will be phased out and become much more scarce, similar to how barbiturates or quaaludes are a thing of the past yet considered much better than todays GABAergic drugs for recreation.

 

[N0ph0n0]

Fent sucks, just because it's strong does'nt mean it's good, as pointed out above it is'nt as euphoric and it also does'nt stay in your system very long, i was talking to one of the rare "heroin" (unkown powder likely dilaudid or fent) users in my city a couple months back and he was complaining that he hated having to shoot up in public and getting insulted by people passing by, since the fent stays for such a short period of time he needs to shoot up every couple hours since withdrawal onsets so much quicker. As for cocaine idk, JJC8-088 would probably be a good RC and i am surprised it has'nt yet appeared on the grey/black market.

 

[danosaurous22]

I do believe cocaine is truly a special drug. Very cruel and of course very frustrating and debilitating, but the reason it's all of those things is just because of how good it makes you feel. It is such a huge tease and I think for drug addicts, the drug's effect is only a piece of the addiction puzzle. We also get addicted to the process of dosing and the up and down rollercoaster of coming down from a drug but then the sweet relief when you have a huge stash and get to get high again after being low. It kind of is just a caricature of drug use, your mind just goes up the mountain and down super fast and that is part of the allure IMO. It puts you through the wringer and there's something exciting and weirdly fun (if you're a little masochistic) about just fucking with your mood in such an extreme way. And of course it has such a reputation throughout history that its popularity is definitely partially because of human culture. There is something very dangerous and surprising about embarking on a coke binge. Even though they are often always the same and involve just compulsively re dosing until it hurts it makes me feel like I'm on the run from all of my problems, it keeps you busy and IME I barely need to be doing anything to have a hardcore binge. The drug is the focus, and the effects are almost secondary to the way it just takes you over and makes you forget about everything before the binge began.

And heroin I haven't tried but it lasts a long time and feels really good and was for a long time cheaper than other options. Also a cultural thing, everybody knows about it from an early age and if you're like me it kind of just lingers in the back of your mind when you're starting to try other drugs and get kicks from being bad. Plus the length and strength of good heroin basically makes it the antidote to the coke shit I was just talking about, you can basically have your cake and eat it too. I see them as like the two quintessential hardcore drugs for their prevalence in media and culture, how prevalent they are (in varying qualities but you can find coke anywhere and some similar opiate not too far from your coke dealer), and there's also the ability to do any ROA you want since they are in a powder so no pills to fuck around with. If there was a "better" coke I probably would still go back to coke because it is just fascinating how the effect takes over everything, but as soon as you begin to notice how it's taking you over you are already starting to come down and all of the sudden you are in cocaine land and stuck there until the bag is gone. It's got such an insane contrast in that way that I'm partially hooked to the confusion and the way it lifts you up to put you down but then you can repeat that as many times as you want. One of the best feelings I get from it is getting high, and then just kind of marveling at how much I have left still. Fantasizing about it lasting many days and fantasizing about getting to feel like this any time I want if I can control myself. And then never ever once actually putting the bag down and going to bed.

 

[SoCalShordie]

With all the radical advancements in technology, it baffles me a little that Heroin and Cocaine in western culture haven't budged in probably 100+ odd years.

Sure methamphetamine, MDMA, Ketamine, Nitrous and the endless list of analogues and other subs i've left out have come along (particularly meth has dominated over heroin the past 10-20 years down under)

But one thing remains; heroin/cocaine/hell even valium is as popular as ever and hasn't gone anywhere

We seem to have developed all these analogues and alternatives, but it just surprises me that non of these seem to eclipse the originals. For example Fentanyl & Nitazenes, despite being so much more insanely potent seemingly seem to be much less preferred by long term opiate users. Similarly, from what I hear most of the RC benzos are much less favoured than their originals too.

Maybe I'm just too uninformed/naive; but where are all the 21st century superdrugs? The ones that improve on the existing and minimise the harm/sides, was I born too soon or are there some circumstances I may not be aware of that make improving on these substances impossible? (Big Pharma's, Cartels, etc)

Good ol’ fashioned heroin and cocaine. My absolute favorite back in the day, was a nice speed ball. Never had an issue or a scare. But damn, I would be so scared being in active addiction in 2026. All the fentanyl in literally everything. I tried fentanyl once in December 2020, and overdosed. That was the first and the last time for me. It scared me straight lol thank god something finally did

 

[garygroundwork]

Cocaine is more popular than it has ever been in some parts of the world.
It has stood the test of time because of how it is portrayed, socially acceptable and a substance for the elite etc.

Is Heroin even as popular as it was in 80's and 90's?

 

[TheFunkeeJunkee]

The most influential factor is that both heroin and cocaine can be produced with no start up capital, by people with no education, in places with no infrastructure. Synthetic drugs come and go as regulations, customer preference and precursor availability change but natural products will always be available because the bar to entry is basically zero and nature never forgets how to make them.

In 100 years time whatever benzimidazole or fentalogue is popular at the moment will be totally forgotten by almost everybody but heroin will be alive and well.

 

[streaM Freak]

The most influential factor is that both heroin and cocaine can be produced with no start up capital, by people with no education, in places with no infrastructure. Synthetic drugs come and go as regulations, customer preference and precursor availability change but natural products will always be available because the bar to entry is basically zero and nature never forgets how to make them.

In 100 years time whatever benzimidazole or fentalogue is popular at the moment will be totally forgotten by almost everybody but heroin will be alive and well.

Yes, this is a more well written version of my thoughts as well.

Going to be popping into this subforum more often since the other mods seem to be missing in action.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

Good ol’ fashioned heroin and cocaine. My absolute favorite back in the day, was a nice speed ball.

Agree with you on that one 100%
I've always said when you shoot (I.V.) Cocaine it's amazing & hits you in a different way compared to snorting or smoking rocks.

I'm not a regular I.V. Heroin user, I still after all these decades prefer to smoke heroin but that too in a 1ml when shot is very nice.
I live in The UK where we still have plenty of good Afghan Heroin, Fent & other stuff like that is around but it's rare thank god, you have a very low chance of going to score & ending up with Heroin cut with Fent.

 

[Zopiclone bandit]

With all the radical advancements in technology, it baffles me a little that Heroin and Cocaine in western culture haven't budged in probably 100+ odd years.

they haven't budged as their isn't any need for it to do that.
The UK has plenty of good Afghan Heroin on the street.

 

[SoCalShordie]

Agree with you on that one 100%
I've always said when you shoot (I.V.) Cocaine it's amazing & hits you in a different way compared to snorting or smoking rocks.

I'm not a regular I.V. Heroin user, I still after all these decades prefer to smoke heroin but that too in a 1ml when shot is very nice.
I live in The UK where we still have plenty of good Afghan Heroin, Fent & other stuff like that is around but it's rare thank god, you have a very low chance of going to score & ending up with Heroin cut with Fent.

I wonder how the dope in UK differs from what we have here in the states. I stopped using in 2022, after a fentanyl overdose. First and last time I tried that. I’d be too scared to still be getting high today bc of all the fentanyl in literally everything.

 

[N0ph0n0]

I wonder how the dope in UK differs from what we have here in the states. I stopped using in 2022, after a fentanyl overdose. First and last time I tried that. I’d be too scared to still be getting high today bc of all the fentanyl in literally everything.

Fr the US drug market seems so ass, like im in Canada and it's allredy bad enough in Montreal and the rest of english Canada (Quebec surprisingly got mostly spared from the fentanyl epidemic) so i cant even imagine how bad it is the states.

 

[SoCalShordie]

Fr the US drug market seems so ass, like im in Canada and it's allredy bad enough in Montreal and the rest of english Canada (Quebec surprisingly got mostly spared from the fentanyl epidemic) so i cant even imagine how bad it is the states.

Do you like Canada? My man has been for work. He said they’re like hella strict at the airport even with Americans. He got like interrogated by the officers once lol. He had gotten on the plane from some marijuana festival and he was super stoned. They pulled him aside when he was going thru security check in an brought him to some room underground and he thought they smelled weed on him and he was gonna get in some huge trouble lol he was super young at the time. Turns out they were suspicious of him bc he had on 2 pairs of pants and 2 shirts bc they wouldn’t all fit in his carry on lmao but they thought he was a bomber

 

[N0ph0n0]

Do you like Canada? My man has been for work. He said they’re like hella strict at the airport even with Americans. He got like interrogated by the officers once lol. He had gotten on the plane from some marijuana festival and he was super stoned. They pulled him aside when he was going thru security check in an brought him to some room underground and he thought they smelled weed on him and he was gonna get in some huge trouble lol he was super young at the time. Turns out they were suspicious of him bc he had on 2 pairs of pants and 2 shirts bc they wouldn’t all fit in his carry on lmao but they thought he was a bomber

I dislike the english speaking provinces because they're too warm and boring. Southern Quebec (where i currently live) is colder but still too cold but atleast there is stuff to do, what i really love about Canada is the far north, the natives might live in 3rd world condition but sure know how throw a fun party. The second i finish college i am going back up north to make fat stacks (the farther up you go the more the government pays you because so few people want to work in a frozen wasteland where teenagers shoot each other with shotguns over some bullshit gang war that started over one guy fucking another guy's gf), only big issue is how expensive the cost of living (dont even get me started on the price of dope/booze) is up there though most government jobs come with nearly free housing.

 

[SoCalShordie]

I dislike the english speaking provinces because they're too warm and boring. Southern Quebec (where i currently live) is colder but still too cold but atleast there is stuff to do, what i really love about Canada is the far north, the natives might live in 3rd world condition but sure know how throw a fun party. The second i finish college i am going back up north to make fat stacks (the farther up you go the more the government pays you because so few people want to work in a frozen wasteland where teenagers shoot each other with shotguns over some bullshit gang war that started over one guy fucking another guy's gf), only big issue is how expensive the cost of living (dont even get me started on the price of dope/booze) is up there though most government jobs come with nearly free housing.

Do ya’ll have gangs in Canada? I had no idea lol

 

[SoCalShordie]

I dislike the english speaking provinces because they're too warm and boring. Southern Quebec (where i currently live) is colder but still too cold but atleast there is stuff to do, what i really love about Canada is the far north, the natives might live in 3rd world condition but sure know how throw a fun party. The second i finish college i am going back up north to make fat stacks (the farther up you go the more the government pays you because so few people want to work in a frozen wasteland where teenagers shoot each other with shotguns over some bullshit gang war that started over one guy fucking another guy's gf), only big issue is how expensive the cost of living (dont even get me started on the price of dope/booze) is up there though most government jobs come with nearly free housing.

How old are you? Just curious

 

[N0ph0n0]

How old are you? Just curious

18

Do ya’ll have gangs in Canada? I had no idea lol

Oh yeah we do.
In montreal they got crips, bloods and hells angels/italian mob affiliated gangs.
In rural areas and smaller cities/town it's either hells angels or local MC's and very small immigrant gangs but they are getting their shit rocked.
There are the native organized gangs who work with the italian mafias and hells angels to launder their cash through their casino, sell unregulated/untaxed weed n cigarettes and they also smuggle alot of guns via the great lakes.
Finnally we got the native "gangs" (the teenagers shooting each other) these ones buy dope from the adult dealers and smoke it, they might flip some of it but they mostly just listen to uk drill and shoot each over stupid shit like being called gay (this genuinly happened im not kidding some 14 year old got killed by another 14 year old because he called him gay).

 

[N0ph0n0]

18

Oh yeah we do.
In montreal they got crips, bloods and hells angels/italian mob affiliated gangs.
In rural areas and smaller cities/town it's either hells angels or local MC's and very small immigrant gangs but they are getting their shit rocked.
There are the native organized gangs who work with the italian mafias and hells angels to launder their cash through their casino, sell unregulated/untaxed weed n cigarettes and they also smuggle alot of guns via the great lakes.
Finnally we got the native "gangs" (the teenagers shooting each other) these ones buy dope from the adult dealers and smoke it, they might flip some of it but they mostly just listen to uk drill and shoot each over stupid shit like being called gay (this genuinly happened im not kidding some 14 year old got killed by another 14 year old because he called him gay).

Forgot to mention it but there also a couple of neo nazi skin head gangs working for the hells as street level dealers.

 

[throwawaylol1232]

I do believe cocaine is truly a special drug. Very cruel and of course very frustrating and debilitating, but the reason it's all of those things is just because of how good it makes you feel. It is such a huge tease and I think for drug addicts, the drug's effect is only a piece of the addiction puzzle. We also get addicted to the process of dosing and the up and down rollercoaster of coming down from a drug but then the sweet relief when you have a huge stash and get to get high again after being low. It kind of is just a caricature of drug use, your mind just goes up the mountain and down super fast and that is part of the allure IMO. It puts you through the wringer and there's something exciting and weirdly fun (if you're a little masochistic) about just fucking with your mood in such an extreme way. And of course it has such a reputation throughout history that its popularity is definitely partially because of human culture. There is something very dangerous and surprising about embarking on a coke binge. Even though they are often always the same and involve just compulsively re dosing until it hurts it makes me feel like I'm on the run from all of my problems, it keeps you busy and IME I barely need to be doing anything to have a hardcore binge. The drug is the focus, and the effects are almost secondary to the way it just takes you over and makes you forget about everything before the binge began.

And heroin I haven't tried but it lasts a long time and feels really good and was for a long time cheaper than other options. Also a cultural thing, everybody knows about it from an early age and if you're like me it kind of just lingers in the back of your mind when you're starting to try other drugs and get kicks from being bad. Plus the length and strength of good heroin basically makes it the antidote to the coke shit I was just talking about, you can basically have your cake and eat it too. I see them as like the two quintessential hardcore drugs for their prevalence in media and culture, how prevalent they are (in varying qualities but you can find coke anywhere and some similar opiate not too far from your coke dealer), and there's also the ability to do any ROA you want since they are in a powder so no pills to fuck around with. If there was a "better" coke I probably would still go back to coke because it is just fascinating how the effect takes over everything, but as soon as you begin to notice how it's taking you over you are already starting to come down and all of the sudden you are in cocaine land and stuck there until the bag is gone. It's got such an insane contrast in that way that I'm partially hooked to the confusion and the way it lifts you up to put you down but then you can repeat that as many times as you want. One of the best feelings I get from it is getting high, and then just kind of marveling at how much I have left still. Fantasizing about it lasting many days and fantasizing about getting to feel like this any time I want if I can control myself. And then never ever once actually putting the bag down and going to bed.

Mate your bang on the fucken money with that one. I don't want to spout off too much as I certainly have a fraction of the number of drug taking years uner my belt as some fellas here but I was on gear for like maybe 2 years pretty much daily and a while before that but not daily. Eventually started getting paranoid delusions (no visual hallucinations, rather gettin crazy ideas like there is someone living in my attic and I would like leave a camera at the door way trying to catch them or constantly thinking police are after me or when outside thinking that someone is following me and holding my breath to listen for footsteps or peaking through my curtains because I think the neighbours are going to call the police on me and my small ammount of gear that I have left in my posession will mean I will get busted for life). Basically I just went fucken nuts. But I started using the benzos and pain killers to take the edge off and it worked fairly okay for a while but then I just became a paranoid pain killer benzo munching gear sniffing looney with extreme paranoid delusions and blew the whole thing off. With that background info out the way, yes, the main thing for me about gear was about the idea of having it, hording it, dosing up on it, timing my doses, and knowing exactly where I am in the cycle of dosing. It would literally make me feel like complete shit like a pararnoid gibbering wreck after my first line after being sober (maybe 12 hours or so after taking last)
, but the thing I cared about was like the idea of having it. It became like gold dust in my mind, I saw it the same way people see money. Like if someone dropped a grands worth of tenners into the ocean never to be seen again, we would all be on our knees instantly like "NOOOOO WHY DID YOU DO THAT?" right? Well thats exactly how I would feel about gear. If someone turned on the tap and washed gear down the sink I would have that instant reaction. It was so valuable in my mind but literally made me feel awful like I did not like the effects and as soon as I was up, I would be waiting out the clock waiting until I am down (and that entire time feeling like absolute shite), before I could go for another rail and have like another 25 seconds of my brain saying "this 25 secconds of sniffing is one of the only highlights of your day". What an idiot I am, I guess my cave man brain is really that dumb that even though I psychologically hate something, becuase it jacks into my most primitive circuits I still ingest it regardless of the fact that it makes my life feel like hell. Just for anyone who gives a shit (most likely no one), I've been off all of it for several years until this week had a bit of gear again, its not too bad, more like the first time I tried it, although I am literally having about fucken 10mg bumps every 2 - 3 hours so literally fuck all and I can still feel effects and slight jumpiness and twitchiness uncomfortable feeling. Where as before a half wrap was like 2 lines lol. I have some zopiclones and 2 valiums to take later when it gets a bit more into evening time, so I can have a bit more gear and be more comfortable. But yes mate, even though I swore that I hate it and I never want to use it again, here I am ingesting a substance that doesn't make me feel good, because after years my brain still sees value in it, just like you describe... lol