Why didn't I feel the Suboxone?

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Before posting this I want to let the mods know that I checked the Suboxone mega thread and couldn't find an answer to my specific question.

Before going onto Suboxone I had tapered down from 130mg of Methadone to 30mg. I hadn't taken an opiate in over a year, almost two. I decided to relapse because I had found a bottle of 60 Percocet. I figured I'd need to go off the Suboxone for 72 hours before being able to fully feel it. So after 24 hours off the Suboxone I took 20mg to get rid of the withdrawals. I actually felt a mild buzzing in my head and a little stimulated, no pain in my shoulders. I was taking a lot of amphetamine at the time so I felt pretty happy, but not high. After 48 hours I took 40mg, again to make sure I didn't go into withdrawals. I felt nothing. I figured I needed to wait longer so after 72 hours I took 60mg of Percocet and felt almost nothing! I was a little relaxed but it felt uncomfortable because I needed to get shit done. Keep in my mind I hadn't taken an opiate in almost 2 years. My question is what could be the possible reason?

- I was taking about 120-150mg of Adderall a day at the time during a binge so is it possible that is why I didn't feel it? I figured it was possible I'd get a speedball type effect but no.
- Is it possible I needed to actually wait MORE than 72 hours?
- Is it possible the current dose of Suboxone I was on, 8mg, was more powerful than the 60mg of oxycodone I took therefor not feeling it?
- Was it not enough to get rid of the Suboxone withdrawals? Was it only enough to simply get rid of them?
Maybe was I not in the right frame of mind? Or do you have any other conclusion? If you could be kind enough to provide one I'd be quite grateful because I still have 80mg left and figured maybe I could try again but wanted to do it right.

Once again, I checked the Suboxone mega thread and couldn't find anything.

Thx guys for any help.

EDIT: Oh crap, I need to change the title to Why didn't I feel the oxycodone!

 

[StaySedated]

i think the Adderall has the most to do with it, especially since you were on a binge. it could also be tolerance, or (and this is what i'm thinking most)a combonation of the two.

 

[amapola]

Buprenorphine is about 6 times stronger than oxycodone which would make 8mg comparable to somewhat less than 60mg, however the half life is much longer and since you are taking it everyday your tolerance is much greater than it appears.

As you can see from the above graph (just divide the y axis by a factor of 2 for your dosage) at any given time you have between 14 and 22 mg of bupe in your system which is equivalent to somewhere up around 100mg of oxy. Taking 60mgs likely just prevented withdrawal.

p.s. Hmmm I ignored the fact that suboxone also includes naloxone but everything still pretty much applies the same.

 

[TheGlimmaMan]

The only time, I have felt the effect of an opiate while on suboxone was from some very powerful heroin, it was actually in 07, when NYC, Philly and surrounding areas were flooded with Id say fairly high quality heroin, cut with fentanyl. Those were the bad times, people were dropping like stones, but like any good junkie, "yp, that shit killed his ass, you know where he got it from?"

Heroin around here is strong enough as it is mix fentanyly with that it was like a bibilical plague, poor bastards didnt know the stamps, so they put their usual 5 -7 bags in the cooker, and it was lights out instantly. Only the guys that had been using for 20-30 yrs were surviving, even though I had have that time under my belt, I wouldnt dare use more than 2 bags at a time

 

[amapola]

^The OP wasn't on suboxone he has gotten off of it for several days and let most exit his system before he tried to get high.

 

[TheGlimmaMan]

^The OP wasn't on suboxone he has gotten off of it for several days and let most exit his system before he tried to get high.

Im just lost on the OP thing, I didnt fully read your post with the graph. That reminds me of math, and I phase out. Psych and sociology are my thing, and believe I love the pharmacology and history of drugs, hell I read Albert Hoffmans: LSD My Problem Child, at 14 before I dropped acid, and when everyone else was terrified of the shit melting around them, I was semi freaked out but knew Albert had gone through similar experiences, and it kept me level

 

[Pegasus]

What amapola said...

For the record, I just quit 0.6mg bupe/ day (insuffulated) in the past few days, and I likewise took Percocets once I felt a bit achy. I usually feel 25-30mg of oxycodone wonderfully, but I had to take 35mg to even get mild effects, which faded in around an hour. This was with much less bupe than you were on, so I can only imagine how much more 8mg bupe impacts opiate tolerance...

 

[amapola]

Im just lost on the OP thing, I didnt fully read your post with the graph. That reminds me of math, and I phase out. Psych and sociology are my thing, and believe I love the pharmacology and history of drugs, hell I read Albert Hoffmans: LSD My Problem Child, at 14 before I dropped acid, and when everyone else was terrified of the shit melting around them, I was semi freaked out but knew Albert had gone through similar experiences, and it kept me level

OP stands for Original Poster. K'd-OUT-in-AZ stopped taking subs before trying to get high on oxy, so your story about breaking through the bupe blockade wasn't relevant.

As for hating simple math but loving pharmacology, that graph is merely showing that because the half life (how long it takes half of a drug to exit the body) is so long for bupe, it builds up in your system over several days so your tolerance is greater than a single dose would account for.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Thanks for the responses. So I guess if I try to take 60mg again after 72 hours again I probably won't feel the effects judging from what you guys said. I had this feeling it was tolerance. Suboxone is more potent than I thought. I was always under the assumption, I don't know why, that your tolerance would go back to what it was before you took the Suboxone.

That sucks because I still have 60mg left and nothing to do with it. Never thought I'd have useless opiates.

 

[amapola]

I was always under the assumption, I don't know why, that your tolerance would go back to what it was before you took the Suboxone.

Ideally going on suboxone won't increase your tolerance because you should only take enough to satisfy you at the level you were at before going on it. Unfortunately there is a big problem of doctors and even users themselves over-prescribing subs. Reasons can be money related for drug companies, not willing to wait until balanced out as per the chart above, being able to break through lower doses which docs don't like, etc.

Realistically though 4mg of bupe a day will build up to ~10mg in the system over the first week or two and that is the equivalent of 60mg of oxycodone which should be enough to hold someone who got high off an 80.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

My previous tolerance to opiates was only 30mg of Methadone because I had tapered down from 130mg in a few weeks so I wasn't taking much. 8mg of Suboxone is probably stronger than 30mg of Methadone, huh? So I'm assuming my tolerance increased because I'm on such a high dose. 8mg is a high dose in my opinion, I was taking 4mg for a long time but I switched a couple months ago. Do you think I'd be able to feel the 60mg if I tapered down to 4mg of Suboxone for a couple of weeks or were saying it would only be enough to hold me?

If I were taking a perfect equivalent dose of each would the oxycodone still make you feel higher since its a full agonist and buprenorphine only a partial? Or does that not apply?

 

[amapola]

Methadone is interesting in that it has a long half life as well so your daily dose also builds up in your system. If 4mg of bupe was fine for a long time though and you then moved up to 8, doing so likely greatly increased your tolerance yes.

I honestly have no idea if tapering down to 4mg a day for a few weeks would lower your tolerance enough to result in being able to get high off 60mg of oxycodone after 72 hours off of bupe or not. You are correct that it is not a full agonist which is why people don't recognize how strong it is sometimes. I've been comparing it as about 10 times stronger than oxy but some sources have it up around 20 to 30 times as strong.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

I was actually thinking maybe Suboxone is 10 times stronger so I probably would have needed 80mg. I could have done that but after 72 hours I gave up because I had figured if 60mg did nothing then maybe 80 wouldn't either. I didn't want to go through another day of withdrawals because the oxy only provided 4 hours of relief, and that is all it was, relief.

Strange thing is that the dose I felt most was the 20mg that I took about 30 hours after my last Suboxone dose. Probably because I hadn't taken an opiate in over a year.