Why are we here? V Philisophical Nonsense begins....

[Vurtual]

The only problem with the scientific account. Is all themm variables. If one slight adjustment was made too anything, temperature, distances of sun/moon, certain species, oxygen and gas ammounts etc etc. Then we wouldn.t exist. There was an amazing documentory that really emphasized this alot better, and the odds of all these things happening by 'accident/chance was literally impossible. The exact same thing applies to the human body, amazingly complicated and so perfect even down to cellular level and stem cells. The more u learn about how amazingly complicated and clever the human body or any living thing is. The more doubtful the scientific explanation of earth and life appears imo. Too perfect To be made by an accident/ chance. Though i am Religeous and have strong beliefs so my opinion may differ to many others.

The anthropic principle covers this (sort of) - the universe we're in could only have all those variables in those places which lead to us being here because they'd have to for us to be here to see them. Maybe there's countless universes in the multiverse all with different variables - of course we'd have to be in the one that has the variables that we need to be here to notice those variables.

When creationists talk about the odds of all those improbable events, they usually ignore the concept of contingency, and how all those improbable events tie together in a long interconnected chain - once one thing happens other things become more likely - the probability of the chain of the past leading to where we are now is 1. The probability of us being in a universe that doesn't contain all those contingent events is zero.

 

[BecomingJulie]

The fact we are seemingly here and able to pose that question makes the whole question of likelihood somewhat .....irrelevant....maybe

Well, you can still calculate the probability. And it comes out small, even if you allow for the fact that the necessary preceding events don't have to happen one after another, but in parallel ..... so it's just the slowest one that is the final determining factor, not the time taken for any of the others to have happened, because they will all already have happened by then anyway.

And who's to say that carbon chains and water -- which works so well on Earth -- are the only feasible chemistries for interdependent, self-sustaining chemical reactions (i.e., the beginnings of life)? (Indeed, need it even be 100% chemical? Might there be life elsewhere in the Universe which depends on nuclear reactions?)

We happened. Each of us gets exactly one chance at life, and even that's still more than most of the possible combinations that could exist manage. So it's even more important for us not to blow that one chance we get, because there isn't another; there is no rehearsal, just the show.

 

[Eveleivibe]

The only problem with the scientific account. Is all themm variables. If one slight adjustment was made too anything, temperature, distances of sun/moon, certain species, oxygen and gas ammounts etc etc. Then we wouldn.t exist. There was an amazing documentory that really emphasized this alot better, and the odds of all these things happening by 'accident/chance was literally impossible. The exact same thing applies to the human body, amazingly complicated and so perfect even down to cellular level and stem cells. The more u learn about how amazingly complicated and clever the human body or any living thing is. The more doubtful the scientific explanation of earth and life appears imo. Too perfect To be made by an accident/ chance. Though i am Religeous and have strong beliefs so my opinion may differ to many others.

I would be interested in watching this documentary you talk about.

Evey

 

[Ismene]

It would appear you have precious little knowledge of Big Bang theory then as what you just said is a direct outcome of one aspect of said theory (specifically the concept of eternal inflation which is required to make Big Bang theory work and is recently gaining leaps and bounds from observational evidence to back up the existing theory - I suspect this is what you are referring to but perhaps missed out on the context? (get your cosmology from the heil by any chance? )

I was tripping on 400mics when I watched the Horizon episode.

 

[Shambles]

^ Ha! Truly the best way to watch such things

(you should try watching the horizon episode on infinity whilst tripping if you really wanna blow your mind )

The only problem with the scientific account. Is all themm variables. If one slight adjustment was made too anything, temperature, distances of sun/moon, certain species, oxygen and gas ammounts etc etc. Then we wouldn.t exist. There was an amazing documentory that really emphasized this alot better, and the odds of all these things happening by 'accident/chance was literally impossible. The exact same thing applies to the human body, amazingly complicated and so perfect even down to cellular level and stem cells. The more u learn about how amazingly complicated and clever the human body or any living thing is. The more doubtful the scientific explanation of earth and life appears imo. Too perfect To be made by an accident/ chance. Though i am Religeous and have strong beliefs so my opinion may differ to many others.

This is known as the Rare Earth Hypothesis. It does have its fans and is certainly a better argument that "Intelligent Design" (although it could be argued it is essentially another attempt by scientists who hold certain religious beliefs to try to expand on ID given how ID itself has essentially no support outside of Creationist believers). I've read a number of proponents of this idea and seen a couple documentaries on it and a compelling case can certainly be made.

However, almost all of the central tenets of the theory ("theory" in the common usage sense of the term) waver under scrutiny and evidence seems to be mounting that refutes the claims made with little or no fresh supporting evidence for the Rare Earth concept appearing. When there was little known about extrasolar planetary systems and concepts like "Habitable (or "Goldilocks") Zones" seemed cut and dry rather than being far more complex and far less rigid as is now widely accepted as being the case, when actual evidence was scant the Rare Earth idea did seem to be feasible. The more we learn about exoplanets and extremophiles and just how incredibly diverse and hardy life is (there are organisms that can survive the near-absolute zero, highly radiated, no pressure, no oxygen vacuum of space, there are organisms that thrive in pools of nuclear waste, the list goes on and on) the less likely the Rare Earth idea seems to be.

Consider a puddle that one morning becomes sentient. It examines its surroundings and is amazed at how perfectly the ditch in which it finds itself fits. It seems impossible that a ditch just happens to fit every contour of the puddles body. Just the right size to contain the puddle's volume. No other ditch could possibly be so perfectly suited to the puddle's needs. This makes perfect sense to the puddle who only has one example to base its hypothesis upon. We know that the puddle simply lacks perspective because it has no knowledge of its full history - of how it came to be in this particular ditch, or of how it would feel exactly the same no matter which ditch it happened to find itself in because it fits the ditch not the other way around.

The "Rare Earth" Theory: Logic and Math Says It's Wrong - We're Not Alone in Universe - farily old article so bear in mind that since then the evidence continues to build that refutes the Rare Earth concept.

Oh, and the documentary you're thinking of is probably The Privileged Planet (yes, that linky really is to a site called "Godtube" - which perhaps gives an inkling of what to expect from the Rare Earth Hypothesis )

 

[Eveleivibe]

Thanks Shamz for giving us those links - will read that later.

Evey

 

[Dark Side]

I suppose you could look at like a Random number generator, it will always work in your favour given enough chances. If the chances are infinite then its going to work in your favour infinite times and you will end up with the correct variables to sustain life.

The argument from religious folk is that we're perfect, we're not perfect in the slightest there is no such thing as perfect, thats just Language and nothing else. If an all Benevolent being created us then why does the world suffer, Religion was created because this world sucks and its the hope there is something better after it, religious folk want to die more than anyone else. Their whole life is a selfish act to get into Heaven...people will even kill and blow themselves up to get to heaven. Notice how religion is most popular in some of the most poverty stricken countries, Religion was born out of misery just like everything else and yet it has also caused more misery to mankind than anything else.

I became a Catholic just to get into a decent secondary school, at the age of 8 years old I had trouble believing in God even though I wanted to.

 

[Shambles]

Thanks Shamz for giving us those links - will read that later.

No problem, Evey. Hope you find some interesting ideas in there (albeit mostly somewhat discredited ones ). That last linky is the documentary which is a persuasive presentation as I recall, but worth bearing in mind (again) that pretty much everything in it is highly disputed and some is perhaps a little misleading and/or flat-out wrong.

Now, as I said I'll get my feelings down n share them at a later date when I feel more comfortable doing so, but for now I'll say that I feel my belief system (other than christianity which has always been there as a result of discussion with my Nain, n school assemblies) started as a result of fear of the future n non-existence - so maybe, thinking about it, its not that I was in an awful situation i know wilk change but from fearing a possible future situation that has not yet happened n needed reaasuring that some sort of comfort will follow.

Leaving aside the concept of reincarnation for now, how do you feel about the nearly 14 billion years of the lifetime of this universe in which you were non-existent? Were you afraid during the billions of years that passed before you were born? Was it uncomfortable to not exist? Why should it be any different after one passes away? If there truly is nothing at all after death it is just that - nothing so it would be impossible to have any thoughts or feelings relating to it because nothing is just that: a complete absence of things of any kind.

What does continue to exist - the only genuine afterlife we know for a fact exists - is the memories you leave behind. The effects you have had on the world and the people your life has touched in any way. As we know this afterlife truly does exist for all of us, and any other concepts of afterlives are purely conceptual and of which it is all but certain we will never be able to prove, disprove or be able to "know" anything about (for fairly obvious reasons), it seems to be far more important to focus on the first of these notions. By all means carry a faith for one of the supernatural afrterlife concepts, but it does seem to me to be a shame when people (and I am in no way suggesting any of this is true for you - is just a general observation is all) become so focussed on whatever it is they believe will happen after death that they neglect - or even reject - the one life we know for sure we have. If this really is all there is then how tragic to fritter it away living in fear of not meeting arbitrary criteria (set by other human beings I would say but obviosuly others feel differently) for being approved for Life 2.0.

One thing that always bugged me about notional afterlives that have strict entry requirements is how any concept of heaven can truly be heavenly bliss and perfection when so many others didn't make it in. What if one's close friends and family didn't make the cut for some reason - how could you exist in heavenly bliss knowing you will never see the people that you love again - especially if it's an afterlife concept that also features a place of eternal damnation and vindictive punishment (infinite punishment for finite crimes being the very height of injustice, of course). Makes no sense to me at all. Doesn't mean it might not be true (it's no more or less likely than any other idea with no possible way to prove or disprove) but seems far less palatable than simple nothingness unless the details have been completely garbled over the years and bear little relation to the "reality" of it.

 

[ColtDan]

We are here simply because of an amazing series of chance factors which has led to our planet being totally suited to nurture, protect and sustain life from the very first proto-cells to human intelligence.

For example,

The universe is old enough for the heavy elements required by life to have been forged in previous generations of stars, but young enough to be a long way from the 'heat death' it will ultimitely face.

Our neighbourhood in the galaxy is relatively quiet, so we've managed to (narrowly) avoid being destroyed thus far.

Our star is of just the right mass to sustain prolonged steady fusion for billions of years, allowing time for planetary formation and evolution.

Our planet is orbiting at just the right distance from the sun for liquid water to be the normal state and is the right mass to stop our atmosphere from boiling away. Earth is also tilted on its axis which helps distribute the suns energy more evenly than a vertical axis, leading to a relatively narrow temperature range over the planet.

Then we have a moon which was spawned from earth while we were still cooling. This moon has enough mass to exert the tidal forces necessary to drive Earths geological processes such as plate tectonics. It also helps keep the Earth's iron outer core liquid around the solid inner core - this results in the dynamo effect that creates our magnetosphere which deflects most of the harmful charged particles from space such as cosmic rays and the solar winds. Much of the UV radiation from the sun is blocked by the ozone layer, and thanks to the greenhouse effect of carbon we are not locked in a permanent ice age.

Then during life's evolution, there have been enough catastrophic events to cleanse the Earth of the evolutionary dead ends and make way for a species that can adapt to survive.

The Earth is an integrated system of cycles and feedback loops which means everything is in a constant state of flux and rebirth. All of these factors have conspired to allow life to evolve without being destroyed as soon as it gets a foothold. Life is a constant struggle against entropy and without all these systems in place it would probably not have got any further than bacteria.

So that's the basis of why WE are here...

^ this

“The amazing thing is that every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way they could get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.”

― Lawrence M. Krauss

 

[Erikmen]

I was tripping on 400mics when I watched the Horizon episode.

What a trip that must have been. I always thought 250 mics would already be a lot.

“The mind is a universe and can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven.”

I don't know what we are here for. According to History every now and then we end up trying to kill each other.

The wars are becoming so normal these days..

 

[da man]

i AGREE religeon has been used too scaremonger alot by twisted people. And what sets a good eligible person aside from an evil non-eligible person has been thoroughly twisted aswell in some cases. In my eyes if you try to live a good honest, productive life. respect ALL LIFE, have faith and a relationship with god, recognise and apolagise for your wrong doings which we all do. We are all human no ones perfect, you stand a good chance of being eligible. But If u r a lying, thieving, sadistic person with no conscience for your wrong doings. Have no morals, have no respect for life human or non-human. All life deserves respect and i believe no one has the right to take A LIFE AWAY from ANY CREATURE. then u dont stand much of a chance. IMO
The "requiremenets" are quite obtainable for most good people. They have just been exagerated, twisted and abused throughout time. So some versions of it are ridiculous.

 

[Dark Side]

Yes Erikman that is known as the waves of destruction, throughout History we end up just wiping each other out.

I find it funny though that a Heroin addict can be Religious, you use a drug that nullifies all pain. Pain is the only reminder you exist....if you were happy all the time, then time itself would have no meaning as you wouldn't even contemplate time. Time only goes fast on MDMA because you're living in the moment.

Nope you're addicted to nothingness and there is practically no way out. That drug imo is the subconscious need to return your state before existence and your body craves it like fuck.

Same reason I started abusing Painkillers, I like nothingness.

 

[da man]

Drugs have been used for thousands of yeasr by all walks of life. none of the commandments say thou shall not take drugs. Though it is a destructive drug yes. And if i could turn back time i wouldnt choose it again. we are all human and all make mistakes. a canabis smoker,a cig smoker, alcahol drinker, even a fuking coffee drinker are all the same in my eyes. Take the stigma away and we are all the same on a basic level

 

[Dark Side]

Of Course we're all the same, we have a need for Novelty and thats what drugs are. We live for pleasure and little else.... I just don't see where Heaven fits into this equation. Remember what happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruits off the metaphoric tree?

It didn't go down too well in Gods eyes. Straight to hell mo fucka

 

[Vurtual]

'O Heaven,
Heaven is a place,
A place where nothing...
Nothing ever happens.'

'Hell is other people.'

The gnostic conception of the kingdom of heaven is that it is right here right now if we could only see it - i'd go along with that myself - basically the same as nirvana - freedom from the past and the future (desire) and living completely in the present.

 

[warriorOnTheEdge]

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf73xqZvk6k

 

[Dark Side]

Thats it Vurtual, my idea of Heaven is living in the present because it's the only way a Human can be happy for eternity. Living in the moment and nothing else

My dad's Philosophy in life is to live in the present and nothing else, but it's impossible without drugs and he is a certified miserable cunt. Go figure

 

[Tangerine Dream]

I'm beginning to think more and more that true happiness comes from helping other people and obviously positive thinking/attitude. Obviously material goods aren't the answer, all that's left is relationships and community/family/friends and the impact we have on the people we care about.

When I look back at my life I'd like to think I didn't waste it, but if I died tomorrow I certainly would have. SO something needs to change and that's me. I need to hold my convictions close, which I feel define me and I need to work on having an appetite for life.

For me, life is what you make of it. You have to find your own purpose/meaning/point to go on living... otherwise it may seem like you are just going through the motions, existing but not living... This is my view of course.

I think my drug use is symptomatic of being unhappy deep down and I'm unhappy because I feel pointless/lost in this world, and constantly criticise myself for not living what I preach but instead being apathetic, lazy and unmotivated. Disillusioned and disappointed with the world and it's injustices...

But then I have to tell myself it's not all bad, most people are good, it's just the ones in power, currently, I feel, are carrying out their own greedy/selfish/corrupt agenda which is contributing to the death of the planet and us. It's hard to reconcile this deeply held belief with feeling good and happy with life. But I know it's possible. I've seen/heard others who seem to be living life the way they want regardless.

I say to myself when I think of what my morality/ethics are... that I stand for knowledge/truth/fairness/equality/empathy/kindness/laughter/logic/love/peace; but it's a battle in my head always, which is as yet unresolved.. that casts aspersions on the above... Guilt, regrets, self-loathing, apathy, laziness, doubting myself....

I think therefore I am... I think too much, therefore my head hurts and I feel depressed!

What's worse... having a clear idea of what I should be doing but failing to do anything thus far about it, or just being oblivious to any philosophy or potential purpose in life and live in ignorance?

Well the former I think, which is annoying to me on a daily basis!

*So do something about it already*

Bit unordered and all over the place this post, sorry. TL;DR etc.

 

[foolsgold]

me i seem so far to of been here for the enjoyment of other vie my suffering

sorry in a nasty place at the moment so just pay me no mind , but this is how my life looks as if the sicko's who have infected my life from the day i came screaming in to this world to today were they still look like my life is under the control of them

 

[koneko]