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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

which substances are Neurotoxic?

Which drugs are neurotoxic, will always be a long-lasting debate.

concerning...mdma,benzos, even marijuana.

There are people constantly trying to prove other people wrong on their theory.

Probably just so they can go print an article with their name on it, or make money writing a book. regardless if the theory is true.


There are only like....a couple drugs the world doesn't argue on about neurotoxity...

alcohol...meth..etc. probably articles that argue that fact to.

This would be never ending.
 
Adding another family, cathinones are usually neurotoxic.

Most aminorex analogues are also neurotoxic, barring 4-MAR...
 
Yeah.....

I guess neurotoxicity it's something really hard to predict or calculate.
It's something far away from chemistry or physics laws.
I guess, the only way to know is by testing the substance....

Anybody knows if there are chemical/biologycal laws you can use while studing neurotoxicity? So that it might be possible to predict the effects of the substance on the neuron and receptor.

Some more help would be very apreciated...this thread is getting very intriguing!
 
Ah but

Only one person has picked up on a point that a lot of people are missing. Research on neurotoxic potential of a drug is performed on just the drug of abuse and not on "street" samples of drugs, which because of the lack of quality control, are far from meeting monograph from the British Pharmacopea (or those of other countries), and /navarone/ pointed out one of the worst culprits: methamphetamine. I'm not aware of any studies on the neurotoxicity of iodoephedrine and the aziridine that is also formed from the RP/I method, but one of the by-products is nephrotoxic, as there's a case of somebody from the bee site (who live in the same city as me) that fucked up his attempt at a meth synth, and ended up in ICU, being ventilated from tasting his own product, and the last my other half heard (she dealt with the call), his kidneys were shot, and they reckoned that he wasn't going to regain conciousness. All backed up by the fact that his flat had all the equip and chemicals he'd used, and some of his "product", when the boys in blue got involved. Admittedly, in one night he'd consumed more than the average person would get from using meth (unless they'd being doing it for quite a while).

Also, smoking ANYTHING is going to put polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons into your system, and when they are metabolized, you end up with compounds that are DNA alkylators; don't matter what sort of cell it is then, alkylate one of the control genes so it has a copying fault, if it doesn't translate to the correct amino acid sequence for a protein that controls gene expression (DNA polymerase etc) and your immune system misses it, you've got a carcinoma - neurotoxic in a round about way if it happens to a neurone.

If they want to assess if a drug users are at risk of developing symptoms of neurotoxicity, surely they should be also be running trials with representitive samples of "street" drugs, or at least the major by-products/contaminants such as iodoephedrine.


Can't remember who brought up the "if it's neurotoxic for rats, then it will be in humans, just at a different dose" topic, but it doesn't always hold true. You can feed rats MPTP 'till it's coming out of their ears (not literally!) and they will not develop damage to the substantia nigra, or Parkinsons-like symptoms, but primates only need tiny, one time exposure to it and produces Parkinsons so severe that there isn't even a tremor at rest, the subject becomes "frozen", as with the opiate users in California who were unfortunate enough to get some in a faulty batch of MPPP.
 
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Hmmmmmmmm, Ive only looked at the autopsy report once on my mom but maybe I will go over it and copy what it says about her brain you people might be able to help me understand why she was acting so strange. By the way besides for being neurotoxic booze created chriossis (sp??) of the liver, varicous veins in her esaphagus (sp?) multiple stomach ulcers where the lining had just been eaten through and also cornary artery disease in the lower artery, along with mal-nutrition and some horrible bone density, It was like you name --she had it, but maybe some people here might help me to understand it all. You all seem to be very knowledgeable about not only drugs but about the complex way the effect your brain and body. Not excatly something youd except from a bunch of druggies eh???=D =D =D =D

People luv to judge to quickly.

thanks
Lee
 
VelocideX: on the melatonin MPTP thing, I didn't actually have access to the articles, just the abstracts. Why someone thought to test it as a variable is beyond my neuroscience background.
 
Hmm...is there any research on the neurotoxicity of PEA/psychedelic amphetamines like the 2c-x/DOx family? I'm concerned, since they've become available where I am and I might want to sample them...
 
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K'dOUTinAZ said:
Your thoughts are wrong. In fact, opioids (non-synthetics) used orally in moderation are safer than marijuana. [/B]

I do not believe this. Marijuana cooked in oil (oral Marijuana) used in moderation is WAY safer than non-synthetic opiods used orally in moderation...
 
^^
This is wrong.

There are no mental disorders associated with opioid use. Opioids do not exacerbate schitzophrenia or anxiety related disorders in people with a predisposition to it. Cannabis does all of this.

Opioids don't have the effect on short term memory that cannabis has. They won't make you stupid the next day, although they might make you drowsy.

Nobody freaks out and has panic attacks on opioids.

Opioids are not neurotoxic in any way. Aside from their addictive nature, they're the "softest" drug in existence.
 
Yup, sorry OnAndOffDruggie but your wrong. You should do research before you decide to comment on something. Opioids/opiates are deffinitly less neurotoxic than marijuana, not that there is any evidence that either are neurotoxic. Opiates are a much safer substance considering the user keeps to recreational use without habitual abuse that leads to daily addictions and sticking needles in your arm.
 
K'dOUTinAZ said:
Opiates are a much safer substance considering the user keeps to recreational use without habitual abuse that leads to daily addictions and sticking needles in your arm.

Weed is completely safer than opiates....From my personal experience, I would say that weed has compeltely fked up my life 1000x more than opiates...but thats because I only do a couple T3's once every 3-5 weeks and maybe some vicodin once every 1-2 months....weed on the other hand i used to smoke 10 blunts a day (with friends obviously)...

Now before you say this is a paradox...

Lets say person A eats 5 grams worth of weed everyday (can't say smoke cause than obviously opiates are better cause you can argue that it causes lung cancer and the like)...
Person B eats like 10-15 vicodin a day....

I would definitely say the opiates are worse because when person's A and B respectivly stop their habits...the weed withdrawel is gonna be minor insomnia for about 3 days while the opiate withdrawel is gonna be hell for 3-5 days and than some...

Now, lets say somebody eats a gram of weed (obviously concentrated in some sort of butter or oil) once a week and another person eats a couple vic's once a week...

In this situation I'd say their both equaly as bad...or really their not that bad if you do it like this;

I'm using logic here; But do you have any sources yourself that would prove that opiates are worse then weed?
 
satricion said:
^^
This is wrong.

There are no mental disorders associated with opioid use. Opioids do not exacerbate schitzophrenia or anxiety related disorders in people with a predisposition to it. Cannabis does all of this.

Opioids don't have the effect on short term memory that cannabis has. They won't make you stupid the next day, although they might make you drowsy.

Nobody freaks out and has panic attacks on opioids.

Opioids are not neurotoxic in any way. Aside from their addictive nature, they're the "softest" drug in existence.

Very few people get panic attacks on weed; Just like some people throw up from opiates...

I am sure that opioids DO have the potential to exacerbate schitzophrenia or anxiety related disorders because once you get addicted to it, the mental hell you will go though to stop will unlease the mental problems you were predispoistioned with...
 
This discussion specifically left out addiction as a factor causing damage. You specifically said "non-synthetic oral opioids used in moderation", and used in moderation, opioids sure as hell don't bring on latent schitzophrenia or anxiety disorders.

I guess you could argue that the effort of controlling use of an addictive drug could exacerbate anxiety related disorders, and that could be true, but it's still mostly irrelevant as it's nothing compared to the mass of scientific literature out there confirming the relationship between smoking weed and going nuts.

Not only do people have the odd panic attack, but regular (like, weekly) use of cannabis can absolutely give a lot of people real problems. In my experience with my peer group, long term use can give otherwise normal people anxiety problems for ages after they quit.

The fact is that opioids are the easiest drug on the brain and the body that's out there...aside from their addictive properties. Those addictive properties make them, I feel, a dangerous class of drugs to play with and not one which I touch anymore, but your assertion that "oral marijuana used in moderation is WAY safer than non-synthetic opioids used orally in moderation" is totally wrong.
 
Ps: Ironically, I'm pretty stoned at the moment, so I'm sorry if my argument doesn't make sense..I'm pretty sure it does though...
 
For the record, animal experiments seem to show that cocaine is more addictive than heroin. Animals allowed to freely inject heroin will do so regularly, but will stop to eat, sleep and groom themselves. Rats trained to administer cocaine will do so continually without sleeping, or looking after themselves, and will keep doing it until they die from overdose or from not looking after themselves.
 
Do opiates cause any changes in the brain and the way it works, even temporary changes?
 
I would have to say that the three safest widely used recreational substances would be:

Opiates
Marijuana
Benzodiazepines

This does not include large doses of abuse and addiction. Thats up for the individual who wants to use the substances.
 
VelocideX said:
For the record, animal experiments seem to show that cocaine is more addictive than heroin. Animals allowed to freely inject heroin will do so regularly, but will stop to eat, sleep and groom themselves. Rats trained to administer cocaine will do so continually without sleeping, or looking after themselves, and will keep doing it until they die from overdose or from not looking after themselves.


My 3rd year Abnormal Psychology textbook claimed that alcohol was more addictive than heroin.

I took this to be the result of the sort of animal studies you describe because I really don't think that alcohol is more addictive than heroin...maybe animals will fight over it harder, but heroin can more easily fill holes in life that only human beings have.

Rats might fight over alcohol more, but the experience of shooting heroin is one that only a human can experience on a certain level. Nonetheless, I support the legalisation of heroin.
 
K'dOUTinAZ said:
I would have to say that the three safest widely used recreational substances would be:

Opiates
Marijuana
Benzodiazepines

This does not include large doses of abuse and addiction. Thats up for the individual who wants to use the substances.

I'm not sure that's fair...if it really was up to the individual how much they use substances would we have so many long term heroin addicts?
 
K'dOUTinAZ said:
I would have to say that the three safest widely used recreational substances would be:

Opiates
Marijuana
Benzodiazepines

This does not include large doses of abuse and addiction. Thats up for the individual who wants to use the substances.

Would you say Herion is safer than Marijuana if both as used occassionaly?
 
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