Misc Which is Safest Long Term: Remeron, Ambien, or Secobarbital?

[TheSacredTree]

Temazepam is great but loses effectiveness quickly if you take it every day especially with a daily dose of another benzo, which the OP already said he does.. Klonopin. I take 30mg-60mg of restoril myself, but not more than 3-4 times a week and i try not to take more than 20-40 mg of valium a day 3-4 times a per week either.. or both stop working... in that case i might drop an extra 100mg of Topamax and a few Neurontin but then i'm certain to be groggy into the next day..

before i was on subs and trying to stay clean, 30 days Saturday , i'd just eat some soma, with the benzos and that'd do it.. but now i try not to take anything not already prescribed to me and i generally stay within my prescribed daily doses...

Yes, this. Adding another benzo to my regimen, although it might work, would probably be the worst thing i could possibly do right now. Already having to fight to keep from getting addicted to the K-pins being as they're probably my #1 DOC in the entire world.

Congrats on being clean as well!

 

[TheSacredTree]

I don't think you understand just how rare and strictly controlled Seconal is. The world's supply of this drug is so low that it's damn near unobtainable, even on the black market. If you were lucky enough to find a source for it, I'm sure it would be ridiculously expensive.
AFAIK it's only used in hospitals for things like general anesthesia and even then it's not very common. Propofol seems to be favored nowadays and even that's damn near impossible to get hold of unless you're an anesthetist.

If your doc writes you a script for a barbiturate, it'll be phenobarbital. Short-acting barbs like secobarbital are no longer prescribed for insomnia. Go find yourself some Mandrax... by the sounds of it, it's better than Seconal anyway.

Do we still have Mandrax here in the USA?

And would Phenobarbital work for sleep?

 

[TheSacredTree]

But the one question i don't think anyone's answered yet is, while i know many of you have already said a tolerance/addiction can easily occur with Ambien, is it more of a mental desire to take more if you try stopping or is it a full on addiction with withdrawal symptoms like a long-term benzo addiction?

 

[hatrix]

But the one question i don't think anyone's answered yet is, while i know many of you have already said a tolerance/addiction can easily occur with Ambien, is it more of a mental desire to take more if you try stopping or is it a full on addiction with withdrawal symptoms like a long-term benzo addiction?

As far as I'm aware, it's going to be like benzo addiction, which includes withdrawal. And with its super short half life, it probably wouldn't be pleasent.

 

[SixBuckets]

As far as I'm aware, it's going to be like benzo addiction, which includes withdrawal. And with its super short half life, it probably wouldn't be pleasent.

The only problem I've ever had with missing a dose of zolpidem is not sleeping. Which doesn't really mean anything, because not sleeping is why I am taking the medication.

 

[DubNaut]

without knowing anything i would answer remeron..
i feel they all are going to suck a different way in the long run.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I've dealt with insomnia my whole life, similar to yours. I don't have trouble staying asleep but I regularly stay up until 4 or 5 in the morning because I simply can't get to sleep... sometimes having to force myself to work with no sleep. Just recently I was prescribed ambien and it's really been doing the job so far. It has potential to be both addictive in the physical and mental sense if your one of those who enjoy the effects though.

Something tells me this is something you would abuse... and probably do some stupid shit while blacked out. (It's almost inevitable at high doses). I can say that I've personally never had problems in the past with hallucinations or any strange behaviors as long as I don't go overboard and the side-effects can be minimal if you respond well. Due to it's potential for dependance and my history with benzo withdrawal I refuse to take it everyday though (hence why I'm writing this post at 2:30am ).

I'm not sure how it will pan out for you long term/daily but the withdrawal can get nasty for some. Although ambien has been shown to be ineffective at maintaining sleep, I think the fact that I don't have that problem it makes it a non issue and so far it's far more reliable than amitriptyline, mirtazapine, and hydroxyzine. At the end of the day I think it's probably in your best interest that you explore all non addictive routes first however.

 

[tricomb]

Have you tried the extended release version? I found it marginally better for this.

Yeah 12.5mg CR was even worse than the 10mg IR's.

 

[TheSacredTree]

The only problem I've ever had with missing a dose of zolpidem is not sleeping. Which doesn't really mean anything, because not sleeping is why I am taking the medication.

Have you ever missed it for more than a day?

 

[lollygolucky]

Remeron has always done SWIM well! Great for amp comedowns too. Not like seroquel.... tachycardia and stabbing shoulder pain. Remeron seems to work great for insomnia, no lethargy the next day and a nice deep sleep.

 

[TheSacredTree]

I have an idea. Would it be bad to take both Ambien and Remeron at the same time? Or would that be just asking for problems, especially with the Klonopin during the day? Because the Remeron is still helping for the Depression and lets me get to sleep fairly easily once i lay down, it just doesn't put me to sleep. But that would allow me to skip days of Ambien every once in a while, get my schedule back to semi-normal, and allow enough med breaks to kinda keep away the withdrawals. Think it would work?

 

[TheSacredTree]

I have an idea. Would it be bad to take both Ambien and Remeron at the same time? Or would that be just asking for problems, especially with the Klonopin during the day? Because the Remeron is still helping for the Depression and lets me get to sleep fairly easily once i lay down, it just doesn't put me to sleep. But that would allow me to skip days of Ambien every once in a while, get my schedule back to semi-normal, and allow enough med breaks to kinda keep away the withdrawals. Think it would work?

Well, scratch that. I think i'm done with the Remeron.

Missed a dose 3 days ago and yesterday by the time i would normally take my dose i was in intense pain all over my entire body from what i'm guessing couldn't be anything other than withdrawals. Horrible headaches, extreme stomach pain, cramps, muscle aches, everything. Felt absolutely horrible. Will definitely be discussing a taper plan wit my doctor at my next appointment on the 7th.

Going to try for Ambien and hopefully the Klonopin and better control of my blood sugars (diabetic) will be good enough for my depression. Going to miss the Remeron dreams though.

 

[cdin]

um, let me state this again: for twice weekly insomnia, the best solution I have found, as a long term insomniac, is clonidine. Regular usage dissipates the sleep effect, but twice weekly with a few days between and it retains its knockout power. Plus it lacks the insomnia and fogginess of benzos, IE, if a fire happened in the middle of the night I get get my ass up with low blood pressure and get out, barb knockout, not so much. just my .02

 

[purplehaze147]

You won't take an SSRI but you'll take remeron a serotonin blocker?

You shouldn't get any withdrawal from remeron. Ive been prescribed ambien for years & I never had any issues with dependency, but I abuse it. They never last the whole month so I might be avoiding withdrawal by abusing it lol.

Ambien does basically the same thing to the brain as kolonopin. I think kolonopin works better.

I highly doubt you'll find a doctor that would prescribe secobarbitual. No way dude lol. Not in 2015 maybe in 1940 you'd have a chance.

 

[mikehardigan]

Hi there,

A few things. The experience you had stopping the Remeron is a withdrawal, it's common but not as bad as SSRI withdrawal. If you decide to stop it in the future the rule of thumb is to (as much as possible) decrease you dose by 10% of your current dose every month until you reach zero. The reason Remeron works as a sleep aid is that it is a powerful H1 antihistamine. Unlike other antihistamine though it doesn't have anti-cholinergic action. The sleep inducing effects can dissipate after normal dosing over time. The z-drugs and barbiturates work well for short term sleep issues but can also be habit forming and have far worse withdrawal symptoms than Remeron. If short term sleep is needed it is safe to combine them with Remeron. Natural options for insomnia include various teas and the supplement melatonin. There is a new drug on the market called Belsomra that has a unique mechanism, its an orexin inhibitor. Maybe ask you doctor about this medication if the others fail or can't be tolerated.

 

[TheSacredTree]

um, let me state this again: for twice weekly insomnia, the best solution I have found, as a long term insomniac, is clonidine. Regular usage dissipates the sleep effect, but twice weekly with a few days between and it retains its knockout power. Plus it lacks the insomnia and fogginess of benzos, IE, if a fire happened in the middle of the night I get get my ass up with low blood pressure and get out, barb knockout, not so much. just my .02

That one sounds... Rather interesting as a solution to insomnia. With a quick lookup, you are correct that everyone is saying it can totally knock them out so it would probably work well and it is technically exactly what i'm looking for but; is that stuff safe?


"Used to treat high blood pressure, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, anxiety disorders, withdrawal (from either alcohol, opioids, or smoking), migraine, menopausal flushing, diarrhea, and certain pain conditions."

Particularly, is it safe for someone who already has perfect blood pressure and way too high of a blood sugar? Seems to cure quite a bit of things but quite frankly that can be a bit of a scary thought at times.

 

[TheSacredTree]

You won't take an SSRI but you'll take remeron a serotonin blocker?

You shouldn't get any withdrawal from remeron. Ive been prescribed ambien for years & I never had any issues with dependency, but I abuse it. They never last the whole month so I might be avoiding withdrawal by abusing it lol.

Ambien does basically the same thing to the brain as kolonopin. I think kolonopin works better.

I highly doubt you'll find a doctor that would prescribe secobarbitual. No way dude lol. Not in 2015 maybe in 1940 you'd have a chance.

"You won't take an SSRI but you'll take remeron a serotonin blocker?"

What do you mean by this? Is a seretonin blocker worse than an SSRI? I generally choose the non-ssri's because they have so much less written side effects and drug interactions than the normal SSRI's and MAOI's. I guess that may not have been the best indication of how bad the withdrawals are going to be though as i found out the other day.

 

[TheSacredTree]

Hi there,

A few things. The experience you had stopping the Remeron is a withdrawal, it's common but not as bad as SSRI withdrawal. If you decide to stop it in the future the rule of thumb is to (as much as possible) decrease you dose by 10% of your current dose every month until you reach zero. The reason Remeron works as a sleep aid is that it is a powerful H1 antihistamine. Unlike other antihistamine though it doesn't have anti-cholinergic action. The sleep inducing effects can dissipate after normal dosing over time. The z-drugs and barbiturates work well for short term sleep issues but can also be habit forming and have far worse withdrawal symptoms than Remeron. If short term sleep is needed it is safe to combine them with Remeron. Natural options for insomnia include various teas and the supplement melatonin. There is a new drug on the market called Belsomra that has a unique mechanism, its an orexin inhibitor. Maybe ask you doctor about this medication if the others fail or can't be tolerated.

Thank you for the tip on how to get off this Remeron, definitely won't be on it for much longer. The teas and melatonin don't work at all for me though, might as well be sugar pills for my insomnia; i'd actually prefer a sugar pill because at least that would taste better. Lol.

But the Belsomra does sound interesting. I just tried to look it up but wasn't finding much on how it works. Do you take it? Does it have a lot of side effects? Does anyone even know how addictive it is yet? I was hardly finding anything at all other than advertisements and very short pill site articles about the very basics of it.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I have an idea. Would it be bad to take both Ambien and Remeron at the same time? Or would that be just asking for problems, especially with the Klonopin during the day? Because the Remeron is still helping for the Depression and lets me get to sleep fairly easily once i lay down, it just doesn't put me to sleep. But that would allow me to skip days of Ambien every once in a while, get my schedule back to semi-normal, and allow enough med breaks to kinda keep away the withdrawals. Think it would work?

I just saw that you're on klonopin... that kinda changes things. Since both ambien and klonopin are cross-tolerant you should be able to take ambien daily and so long as you take your klonopin you wouldn't enter ambien withdrawal.

 

[TheSacredTree]

I just saw that you're on klonopin... that kinda changes things. Since both ambien and klonopin are cross-tolerant you should be able to take ambien daily and so long as you take your klonopin you wouldn't enter ambien withdrawal.

Wow, they're really that similar? That's pretty cool actually. Although i really only take my klonopin like two to three times a week as needed even though i'm prescribed to take it twice a day.

Think it would help keep away the Remeron withdrawals as well if i take it when i'm feeling that? Or are those ones way too different?