Which is more damaging; Cannabis or Heroin? [split from DC]

[ToxicFerret]

Oh, the stupidity thing was just me telling him he's a dork and ought not to be in this forum.

 

[Gaz_hmmmm]

Heroin and other opiates can amplify my emotions.

Marijuana can do this too, give some to someone who's anxious and watch'em have panic attacks for a few hours! Trust me, it's not fun!

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the so called 'cannabis psychosis' and how it 'can' be really bad for people with certain mental illnesses, where as opiates have anti-psychotic effects.

Heck, they used to give opium to masturbaters in Victorian times here in the UK, cause they thought they were mentally ill! :D

 

[ToxicFerret]

^^ Goddamn, thats a sweet deal.

But honestly, I can't imagine being anything aside from warm and lazy when I'm high on opiates.

 

[Blowmonkey]

Because neither of them cause noticeably detrimental long term affects. The only issue here is that heroin has the potential to cause fatal acute affects. This is risk, not damage.

How the fuck can you be so retarded?

I'm sorry creativerandom, but you're being a bit overzealous. The wording is not all that accurate, you can take it LITERALLY, or you can see it the way everyone in this thread sees it; " which substance is able to cause more harm.."

I mean, how retarded can you be (pot calling the kettle black)..? 8)

 

[Blowmonkey]

And if you smoke weed, then smoking weed DOES make you stupid. There are about a million and one toxicity studies in this thread you dolt, read it all the way though.

Well, then you should never smoke weed, you'll loose what little IQ you've got left immediately.. 8)

There ARE a lot of toxicity studies in this thread, but NONE OF THEM are conclusive. To say that weed makes you permanently dumber is not an accurate statement, it drops your IQ a couple of points during effects, but they're not conclusively shown to be permanent and thus you cannot say if it causes definite toxicity.

Next time you read a thread, try to READ it.

 

[supersnail]

I agree ^^^^^^^^

However I believe Paradoxcycle has provided ample evidence, sourced, showing that marijuana does leave long term adverse effects in humans .

CR, i'm not sure what evidence you're referring to here, but i have read all of paradoxcycle's posts and i'm far less convinced than you seem to be.

 

[lyserg]

Being both a marijuana user and a heroin user, i have not seen very drastic effects from either of these substances. Most of the theories on the side that is saying heroin is damaging is just saying that you can get addicted to it and that is only from indulging excessively. It has nothing to do with how damaging it is. I come to the conclusion that these substances are basically the same in regards to harm and i give it a tie.

 

[Billy Orange]

i steal from everyone to support my bud brownie habit, nothing like running around town pawning shit, scoring then fixing up a brownie in a shitty apt kitchen, then watch tv and eat cheetos, i tried it with heroin but i fell asleep with my leg under a tv stand, n' cut off the circulation, long story short, i have one leg now.

 

[psychotiKK]

People have already posted scientific evidence here. All my posts on this thread have been responses.

You can become mentally addicted to anything. You are blowing wind here buddy.

Yes, you can become physically addicted to heroin. Yes, heroin can kill you within minutes of dosing. These are both due to acute effects of heroin, which are risks. You are not listening to what I am saying, or what anyone is saying, or even what the thread title is. Are you that retarded? Is this the result of marijuana?

Water can cause acutely. Marijuana can't. Water is *riskier* than marijuana, in the same way heroin is *riskier* than marijuana. However, marijuana is more *damaging* than water. Understand?

Actually, come to think of it, wouldn't injecting heroin be less dangerous than smoking marijuana due to the carcinogenic effects of smoking? That is more an issue of administration though...

Yes, that claim I made on pot heads and junkies coincides with generalizations and stereotypes. However, I made clear in my post that my comment was based on my personal observation, not on word-of-mouth stereotypes and generalization.

Again, you prove you are a brainless idiot who is rambling out of your ass.

Thank you ToxicFerret. By the way, I have never heard of such studies. I have heard of the neurotoxicity but I did not know the association was to stupidity. It does seem to make you slower and dimmer but that seems to be an acute effect rather than a permenent or lasting effect.

I guess I am "retarded" and "a brainless idiot" because I believe heroin is more damaging then weed. Obviously injecting heroin is safer then smoking marijuana, you must be a moron to think this. I'm listening to what you are saying, but it's all bullshit so it goes right out the other ear. Here's a hint, if you want to prove your point use factual information instead of your opinions followed by your middle school insults.

 

[psychotiKK]

^^ You still dont see what he's saying at all. I dont know what the hell you're talking about opiates letting you get very angry, sounds absurd to me. That isn't really the point though, the point is that he's talking about the effect of heroin on the cells in your body. Not which one you'll get hooked on faster or easier or which one costs more or anything like that.

And if you smoke weed, then smoking weed DOES make you stupid. There are about a million and one toxicity studies in this thread you dolt, read it all the way though.

Yes, I mean to be a dick. What goes around comes around, right?

I'm talking from first hand experience here, opiates can make me get angry easier. Morphine tends to do this to alot of people. I've shot up heroin, even had a bit of a habit, and I smoke weed. Smoking weed doesn't make you "stupid" that's just another myth and propaganda the government feeds you. I really think you need to pull your head out of your ass.

 

[lyserg]

If your smoking weed it can do damage to your lungs. If your snorting heroin it can do damage to your nose. I think they're around the same in a lot of areas if your doing them both in a limited condition. If you dont do both everyday it wont do a lot of damage if any at all.

 

[psychotiKK]

If your smoking weed it can do damage to your lungs. If your snorting heroin it can do damage to your nose. I think they're around the same in a lot of areas if your doing them both in a limited condition. If you dont do both everyday it wont do a lot of damage if any at all.

Exactly! :D Couldn't of said it better myself..

 

[Morrison's Lament]

lyserg: Well said.

--- G.

 

[CreativeRandom]

And heroin being a deadly, dangerous drug is also a propaganda myth. Why buy one myth but not the other?

Yes, I realize injecting street level heroin with materials obtained from 7-11 can be a dangerous practice.

However, between smoking medical grade marijuana in whatever manner the doctor prescribes, and injecting medical grade, pure heroin from sterile equipment, I would have to say injecting heroin causes less damage.

Heroin can be extremely deadly if you overdose, and can cause withdrawal. However, if you use responsibly (not dosing every day) and do not overdose, heroin is safe.

From the studies paradoxcycle and gloggawogga posted, it sounds like marijuana is more damaging. Perhaps there are valid studies on responsible heroin users showing damage, but it seems like none were posted. Paradoxcycle showed valid entries of studies of marijuana causing damage, specifically, nueron damage.

However, it does not say what this damage did. So don't get me wrong here, perhaps this nuerons are useless in the first place. Perhaps losing such neurons has no effect on brain function and intelligence; the mind is too complicated to simply assume such. But it can be said that losing neurons is an adverse affect.

So really, you could assume both are nondangerous as none cause any noticeable detriments on a person. Or, marijuana is more damaging because of carcinogens and neuron damage.

 

[Blowmonkey]

Paradoxcycle showed valid entries of studies of marijuana causing damage, specifically, nueron damage.

Yeah, in animals, only "sugestive evidence" it might be happening in humans. Only a couple of studies have shown results of human trials, and honestly, they're not conclusive.

Meanwhile, I wanna add an interesting thread to the discussion:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?postid=2097452#post2097452

 

[CreativeRandom]

I was pretty sure paradoxcycle posted some articles about research conducted on humans showing that marijuana conclusively caused neuron damage. How is that not conclusive?

And isn't research done on animals quite relevant to the effects it will have on humans? If it weren't, what would be the point? That would be like testing to see if water could drown humans by reaching the decision based on the effects of water on fish....

Interesting thread, but it seems like the neuroprotection is caused by the antioxidant properties of cannibinoids. Doesn't seem like a big deal.

 

[Blowmonkey]

I was pretty sure paradoxcycle posted some articles about research conducted on humans showing that marijuana conclusively caused neuron damage.

Pretty sure, but way off. I'll just answer you with some quotes from people who've said this better than me:

Originally posted by supersnail
There has yet to been shown a study that:
1. is an actual research study, not a textbook author's interpretation of primary research.
2. demonstrates neurotoxicity in humans, not in cultured cells
3. demonstrates a lasting neurotoxicity, which in the case of heavy users means one that persists months after they've ceased use, when it's certain that observed effects are not just lingering acute ones.

Now I said there are only a couple of studies like this which show cognitive damage and that's coming from here:

Originally posted by BilZ0r
I think the most interesting study is Pope et al., 2001, where they compare people who had smoked 5000 times or more, but have basically quit for 3 months, to people who have never smoked, and people who still smoke daily.

The people who have quit for 3 months are the same as the controls.

The question is, how long does it take you to smoke 5000 times. In the paper they say that it is 13 years or so. Which was shown by the costa-rican paper to not be enough to cause damage, becasue in their study, only the people who had smoked for 34 years were damaged....

And isn't research done on animals quite relevant to the effects it will have on humans? If it weren't, what would be the point?

Yes, it is relevant, but it's contrasting and comparing.. I mean shit, how obvious is this..? Our brains don't work entirely the same, would you say they did..?

 

[ToxicFerret]

Bilzor, I never said there were a lot of HUMAN toxicity studies, I merely said that there was indeed toxicity information, regardless of whether or not it was in humans or not. Psychotikk had said there was no scientific evidence in this thread, and I was correcting him. My comment about weed making you stupid was a perhaps uncalled for personal attack on psychotikk, not my actual belief. I smoke cannabis and I consider myself every bit as intelligent as I was the day I started smoking. In fact, I already stated that it isn't my actual belief, just a personal attack. I quote: "Oh, the stupidity thing was just me telling him he's a dork and ought not to be in this forum." So, perhaps I'm not the one who needs to read threads more thoroughly. I don't mean to be rude, I just think that was a bit uncalled for.

And Psychotikk, you're telling me to take my head out of my ass but look who's talking. You're being self-righteous as can be. You may have experience with heroin and weed but that is still not what is being discussed whatsoever. You can't seem to grasp that we're talkign about the effects on individual cells, not effects on your life or your finances. This is akin to saying that PCP is safer than heroin because it's much harder to get addicted and there isn't the risk of using shared needles. Unfortunately PCP is indeed neurotoxic, to a greater degree than heroin. Granted it's less risky, but that's not what is being discussed. The title of the thread is "Which is more damaging; Cannabis or Heroin, not "Which is riskier, cannabis or heroin". There's no real argument about heroin being riskier. You ought to stop being rude, it's not necessary and it makes you look bad.

 

[CreativeRandom]

What was originally posted by Bilzor does not prove anything. It shows no noticeable signs of damage were apparent. That's fine.

The impression I got was that marijuana caused permanent neuron damage. However, as I have stated before, I do not know what exactly this does to a person. Just because there is neuron damage, does not mean one must assume the person is stupid, less normal, or has any brain malfunctions. I do not know what exactly this specific neuron damage, caused by marijuana, does. Lack of oxygen causes brain damage, but I've never heard of someone who passed out from lack of oxygen suddenly becoming stupider or impaired.

I think the brain is too complex to simply assume that damage will equate such an affect. Perhaps if paradoxcycle's studies were more specfic, than we could learn what exactly this damage did.

 

[ToxicFerret]

Research has shown that resuscitation without brain injury is possible after up to 10 minutes of cardiac arrest. (Critical Care Medicine 19, 379-389 (1991))