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Which drug is closest to a true psychotomimetic?

coriolis said:
Wikipedia says: "Ketamine and other NMDA antagonists such as PCP and MK-801 are considered to be the best available pharmacological models of schizophrenia to date." On the other hand someone told me that ketamine is tried as a treatment of schizophrenia like disorders.
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That is because most humans are very stupid and they decided to only test these drugs as "psychotomimetics". :|
 
Okay...per my training in psychology, 5-ht2 psychedelics are VERY DIFFERENT from psychosis as it presents in paranoid schizophrenia. Anticholinergic delirium is similar in that it causes hallucinations, but there is no coherent system of personal delusions. Also, visual hallucinations are pretty rare for schizophrenics. NMDA antagonists can but do not usually induce similar delusions. It really has to be stimulant/sleep-dep induced psychosis.

ebola
 
ebola? said:
but there is no coherent system of personal delusions.
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I don't think this is quite accurate. People who ingest Datura or, really, any anticholinergic report delusions all the time. For instance, people report things like talking to trees, and fully believing that there is nothing wrong with that situation. According to the definition of delusion, it must meet these critera:

* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
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...which it does. Just by going with the definitions, it seems that anticholinergics do cause delusional states like this, and I'd venture to say that amphetamine psychosis and sleep deprivation are essentially identical to anticholinergic delirium. I've only experienced amphetamine induced psychosis (coupled with sleep deprivation) myself, but it seems more or less the same as, say, a Datura trip, just going by the descriptions.
 
sleep deprevation I'm sure is one, and any drug combined with this (drug) will help you go crazy.. I've done it before, Freaking out at my freinds for nothing, thinking some crazy thoughts, this happened after a night of coke and heavy drinking, followed by more coke and no sleep... not a good combo

Ive also expreienced mixed thoughts after, not during, BUT AFTER a night of doing E, I'm talking like 10 caps or more, stecthed over 24 hours, that will leave your mind kind of mixed up for a couple of days, I'm not one to indulge in something like that again,,, I could feel my mind warping ,, however it felt good... thats kind of gross....

I wouldnt want to touch datura or anything of that sorts, just because of the spirituality of the drugs, they arent meant for me or anyone I would think.. but to each his own... we can beat skitzophrenia !!!
 
I don't believe that it's the sleep deprivation that stimulants cause that induce these problems.

There are many reports of prescription stimulant users (not abusing them) who got enough sleep on their own or obtained it through sleep aids and still ended up with psychosis after months.

Mania also produces the same effects, though.

Dopamine obviously plays a strong role in this.
 
In my experience, sleep deprivation has little to do with Amphetamine psychosis. I experienced psychosis even with sleep (though that was benzo-induced sleep).

Oh, and about having experienced Amphetamine psychosis (twice)... I would say it was VERY unlike psychedelics and has absolutely nothing to do with dissociatives. To me, it seems to be closest to what I've seen in schizophrenic people.
 
If you think psychoses like schizophrenia or depersonalization disorders are simply based in a modulated level of dopamine or whatever receptor type or uptake channel, then you have an overly-simplistic model that is not very useful for explanation I think.
 
my answer might not fit in here, but here we go anyway. It's more like a method.

I found the most cracked up i ever was i achieved using this method.
I was on a two day meth bender without sleep. Third day and things got uggly. I smoked lots of pot, which put my parranoia through the roof. Then i tried to go to sleep taking 100mgs of Diphenhydramine. BIG MISTAKE I TELL YOU!
I ended up on the street on my porch, refusing to go into my house because there was an apparent invasion of ants the size of shoes and scorpions. I saw them, i felt them, i heard them. That night i fell alseep huddled under a bush in the garden, hiding from people who "were out to get me". I saw them with their flashlights and everything. I was constantly talking to myself in the "you" form. Like "you must not go in there again" or "you better hide before they get you man" or "are you really safe underneath that tree standing in your garden"...
I was never cracked up like that again. it was not pleasant.

I think that goes pretty close to what you're after.

Dopaminergic drug + sleep deprivation + anxiety + anticholinergic = One wild night 8(


POD is one too =D. Plain Old Datura, like someone here mentioned already. If some of the reports are true, it seems to be pretty psychotic.
 
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>>
I don't think this is quite accurate. People who ingest Datura or, really, any anticholinergic report delusions all the time. For instance, people report things like talking to trees, and fully believing that there is nothing wrong with that situation. According to the definition of delusion, it must meet these critera:
>>

The key term here is "integrated system of delusions". While Datura may make you see nonexistent phenomena, they don't very often corroborate a detailed system of delusional beliefs.

I should note that I have no personal experience with stimulant psychosis, anti-cholinergic delirium, or sleep-deprivation induced insanity.

I would also say that sleep deprivation plays a role in most stimulant-induced psychoses, as such psychosis is A LOT rarer when people get regular rest...as to whether sleep-deprivation is a simple correlate of reckless doses is a bit harder to prove.

ebola
 
ebola? said:
The key term here is "integrated system of delusions". While Datura may make you see nonexistent phenomena, they don't very often corroborate a detailed system of delusional beliefs.

I should note that I have no personal experience with stimulant psychosis, anti-cholinergic delirium, or sleep-deprivation induced insanity.
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If you got some personal experience you'd find the above is not the case ;) .
I assure you that you do in fact become very much delusional from anticholinergics.

My experience with anticholinergics (in delusion-producing doses) is limited to diphenhydramine, and diphenhydramine is recognized as being less psychosis-producing than atroprine as far as I know... and diphenhydramine was fucking crazy. Never again. Not remotely recreational.
 
>>If you got some personal experience you'd find the above is not the case .
I assure you that you do in fact become very much delusional from anticholinergics.>>

I'm not saying that you don't become very delusional. I am saying that the delusions don't form an integrated system.

ebola
 
^^^I suppose in that sense, the delusions from anticholinergics do not form an "integrated system", but again, these are just psychotomimetics, and unless they prompt a psychotic episode, drugs generally do not last long enough for such a developed syndrome to take place. I don't think anyone is saying psychotomimetics accurately mimic schizophrenia; they simply induce varying levels of psychosis. When i accidently poisoned myself with datura seeds, the hallucinations were intensely realistic, however i doubt i remember more than 10% of these hallucinations...

Although somewhat of a tangent, I think the closest thing to drug induced schizophrenia is drug withdrawal. During withdrawal from high dose nor-diazepam, i experienced a case of intense delusional parasitosis (formication combined with visual hallucinations), which lasted for well over a month after cessation. While acute DAM withdrawal produces more fantastical hallucinations, it does not compare in any way to the realistic nature of those produced by benzo withdrawal. So in this sense, less intense but more consistent delusions can be far more believable...
 
ebola? said:
personal experience with stimulant psychosis, anti-cholinergic delirium, or sleep-deprivation induced insanity.
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I hit all 3 in one week not that long ago.
The delusions were fully integrated across the whole week (some parts of it did last a week) Sometimes the focus shifted, but everything was always reintegrated by the end.
The final part was the delerium caused by dyphen and I literally saw faeries. This tied in extremely well with the full on, cameras, secret voices, auditory hallucinations (most common) and visual hallucinations which all, despite me knowing that these things must be delusions, all managed to convince me for short periods of time that they were true.
Don't ask how faeries tied into my paranoid delusions, but they did.
I did some crazy shit that week, not least of which was looking for the hidden camera in my neighbours pond.

I think I might have also met some real people while I was delerious, but I have no idea.
 
I have never once experienced a psychotic reaction after taking a stimulant (well actually, I've never had one after taking any chemical), so I guess I just can't relate to all the comments about amphetamine psychosis.
 
I've used scopolamine to induce a delerieant experience, and to be honest, whilst it was physically frightening, the effects were more interesting then any traditional psychedelic- and more related to either lucid dreaming and fever states. Though a degree of autopilot kicks in that is uneeded- the cigarette issue is ridiculous. I think its the body wanting nicotine to reduce to anticholinergic effects...

As all others have said, the only time I have heard voices inside my head is after binging of methamp and MDA....
 
I have eaten the nightshades, and you are stomped, tis true. But pure Aminorex, (not methyl) 10-40 mgs a day, I never saw such a predictable and rapid flowering of psychotic behavior. I mean true, overt, schizophrenic ideation, etc, right out of the DSM's

When you are a 230 lb guy and your 105 lb fiancee is terrifyng you in every sense of the word.... God PCP was like powdered sugar next to this stuff,
 
samadhi_smiles said:
If you think psychoses like schizophrenia or depersonalization disorders are simply based in a modulated level of dopamine or whatever receptor type or uptake channel, then you have an overly-simplistic model that is not very useful for explanation I think.
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I thought depersonalization disorders were a whole different ballpark from psychoses? Speaking of which, that's another thing pot really reminds me of. The main effect of pot for me used to be feeling like I was watching a movie of myself doing things, with no control over my actions, which I later learned to be exactly what depersonalization disorder is. I know a lot of other people get this effect too, I hear it described a lot.

The more I read about pot the more I think it has a very specific effects profile. I used to think everybody got high in different ways but if you dig deep enough you find a lot of people describing the exact same stuff (vision cut into frames, vividly hallucinated music, cartoon-ish CEVs of a specific nature, depersonalization), way more precise than the effects profile for, say, LSD.
 
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