When Will Live Audiences Be Ready For Computer Mixing

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The analog effect. There needs to be some tactile manipulation happening that moves to the flow of the music.
 
Kyk said:
The analog effect. There needs to be some tactile manipulation happening that moves to the flow of the music.

....uuummm, well i use my hands to control the computer, i don't think i've ever seen one that can be controlled without touching it.
 
anyone here who has produced with software BEFORE they bought their first hardware to produce, and then tweaks their first knob--that person knows exactly what effect is lost by allowing a person to limit themselves to strictly software based mixing.

When you actually touch the vinyl... actually touch the CD platter... actually use something that doesn't match a beat for you(and I can't see your laptop screen, I am dancing. You could be playing something in Windows Media Player for all I know.) that adds to the feel that you are doing something more than holding your mouse over the "sync" button in Traktor.

That being said, I've also seen people using both turntables AND their laptops to mix their own tracks into their set. THIS is great for music... implementing new ideas is GOOD for music. Using just one or the other is limiting to you and their enjoyment, both.

Adam, if you start taking your laptop and using it exclusively, you can pretty much assure yourself of only spinning for mindless club swine for the rest of your fast ending DJ career(not to say it is, but it will be).

I learned to mix by watching what the DJ was doing in front of me. Noone taught me. I went and bought my techs and learned how to match beats on my own, from what I SAW being done... then I took that and added my own flava--there you have it. I use my laptop, CDJ's and 4 techs on 2 mixers, and you can bet your ass that I would NEVER use one or the other. Vinyl might be becoming obscure for YOU... I dig through crates for my vinyl. As a turntablist, vinyl is a fetish, not just a medium for me to rock a party. But I'm also not going to take the stance of hating on another medium just because one is my favorite. Just list yourself as a PCDJ on the flyer from now on, so I know whats up.
 
it's interesting to see how many of the criticisms levelled at non-traditional mixing are based on differentiations that exist outside the audio realm.

as evidence, let's look at some of the complaints:

i want interaction with the dj, i want to see he's enjoying it too, mixing records and cds together, not pushing buttons on a computer. Maybe thats just what i expect from a life performance

you dont want to pay top dollar and visit a club and see a guy clicking a mouse button (ala Kraftwerk)

I seen these guys in Sydney 2 years ago was highly disapointed all THEY did... was stand there infront of 4 or 5 laptops not even moving a muscle.

I pay to see a DJ PERFORM, NOT BE A KEYBOARD COWBOY.

They don't come to your live shows to see you behind a computer.

This is about turning the DJ from a performer into a some geek with a laptop.

1/2 the appeal of the DJ is the fact that he/she can be seen, can interact and feel the crowd. No, the crowd shouldn't be 'staring' at the DJ, but the DJ is a point of reference. He's a place where your eyes can rest during a breakdown. He's the engineer, the conductor, the origin.

and you want to stick him behind a laptop?

much of this appears to be visually orientated - i.e., nothing really to do with the quality of the music... placing a greater emphasis on some sort of higher 'performance' vibe that vinyl somehow possesses, and PC setups lack.

it seems there are a few relevant issues:

1) the differentiation between a LIVE act [PA] and a DJ set using a program to mix

2) that magical performance quality, immeasurable but desireable, which apparently computer-based setups cannot equal

3) difficulty in understanding how progams actually work, rather than mere medium-prejudices - and the resultant definition of what constitutes mixing.

the first point i'd like to make concerns the performance element. lots of people profess to be 'disappointed' when seeing DJs who are using some sort of computer setup... and these complaints appear to be almost entirely image-based.

this raises a few questions: firstly, have you ever seen a vinyl DJ who has been inactive behind the decks? i'll bet you have - everyone has. the number of DJs who do actually jump around and engage with the crowd properly is pretty limited, and certainly has nothing to do with the music format. i mean really - does every computer-orientated DJ just sit there 'clicking mouse buttons'? exactly how does the tactile manipulation of a control surface differ from the tactile manipulation of a record?

the real issue is whether people consider someone to have given a good performance overall. and i can't really imagine why the music reproduction medium has any real impact on this... because it's down to the performer and the performance - the instrument (as it were) has no more relevance than the amps. the performer is performing, not their particular music format...

most of these arguments were made about CDJs, as BL already discussed... and mashmetaller has pointed out the historical continuity behind this sort of transitional anxiety.

for me - personally - DJ interaction with the crowd in terms of a physical presence is important.but i don't listen to someone's live set in order to see the 'jesus pose'. i LISTEN to the set; i DANCE to it. it's about MUSIC over image for me...

tell me, would you rather spend 4 hours listening to a beatmatch-proficient but deadly boring vinyl DJ playing bland trance and pulling the 'jesus pose', or 4 hours of scintillating psy mixed on an ableton-equipped laptop, with so much more versatility, real musical interactivity, and experimental capability?

i know which event would get my money...

i don't see how the much-derided 'pushing buttons' is seen as worse than, er, pushing buttons on a CD deck. as hydra mentioned, ableton is NOT traktor. CDJ1000s have an automatic BPM counter - fuck, you can buy plugin BPM counters for next to nothing - does that mean they're 'cheating' as well? some DJs even write down the BPMs of their records, or pre-plan their sets - presumably that's also cheating to some extent?

kyk's eloquent appraisal - the DJ as conductor etc. - is noteworthy, but flawed IMO - because a reproduction-only DJ (i.e. playing other records) is far more limited compared to an ableton production DJ. you really do have far more control over almost every aspect of the music... plus, you're thinking constantly about many different aspects of the music, its construction, etc. etc... to use your analogy, in my honest opinion - a DJ who is just playing records is kinda like the metronome, or the player-piano. a DJ who is using a closer-to-live setup really is the conductor, and the origin... far more so than the regular DJ, especially in terms of sheer manipulation of the sound itself.

i go to live shows to see someone behind a computer - because i don't go to shows to see someone, i go to hear them...
 
"i don't go to shows to see someone, i go to hear them"

nail on the head there!!!

If you read the top 100 DJ poll, each one was asked what they thought was the best piece of technology created in the past years, LOADS of them chose ableton..... its the way forward imo

anything that pushes the boundaries of music is good.... I'll be playing around with ableton myself as of next week :D

Some of the best sets of last year for me were live PA's on PC's, far more entertaining than just a DJ......... Lab4 anyone? :)
 
dr seuss said:

i go to live shows to see someone behind a computer - because i don't go to shows to see someone, i go to hear them...

I totally agree with what you've posted, and that last part sums the whole point perfectly.
 
I go to dance. But in the back of my mind, I know that I can most likely do better than the guy I just paid to entertain me... and that makes my good time go away
 
day_for_night
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20-11-2004 01:06 (#2465743)
when it actually produces something MUCH better than a regular dj set...sorry to say, i havent heard any comp mixed sets that have blown me away.


......two words: aphex twin
 
i'm with Kyk & Mystic Styles on this one.

sure we all know sasha can beatmatch well using vinyl/cds but allowing a piece of software to beatmatch the music for a dj is kinda like saying...ok, i know "famous singer" can sing very well and has a proven track record, so it's ok for them to lip sync next time i pay 100 dollars to see them perform "live". tell me, does ableton allow your mix to go out of sync? i think the real reason a lot of the top djs are making the move to computer based set-ups is because they're getting sick and tired of lugging vinyl around rather than possessing a genuine desire to have greater manipulation of the music. most big name djs will say that track selection is one of the most important things to create a great set, how much manipulation and effects can one really use before killing the effect of the original material?

on a different note, i'm so sick of this "reading the crowd" crap. every dj has certain genre/s they play more often than others and the majority of the people who go to see them perform are aware of their particular style/s and expect to hear such music. i think the time of the night a dj is booked to play and the duration of their sets affects their decision to alter playlists more than crowd reaction. people who go to clubs are usually intoxicated on legal or illegal drugs and most of the time they'll go nuts even if the dj puts in a lacklustre performance, i mean just look at the reaction the top djs get when they are announced and after each track is dropped, they could trainwreck all night and only the trainspotters would truly give a fuck (an exaggeration but you get my point).

i really don't see what's wrong with wanting the dj to add a visual element to their performance. you can go on about the music all you want but the fact is that many of the big name jocks quite often play the same big tracks and don't mix in such a radical way as to truly distinguish themselves much from others. i am all for hands on, crowd interaction, and crazy sunglasses.
 
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roliepolie said:
I go to dance. But in the back of my mind, I know that I can most likely do better than the guy I just paid to entertain me... and that makes my good time go away

haha, you honestly cant say that brotha, i know you can mix but you (as well as myself) simply havent been doing this as long as the really sick guys out there...im confident too but lets be realistic...

by the way: listen to that ableton set i sent you and then HONESTLY tell me what you think, that is better than most dj's can do on their best days!
 
roliepolie said:
http://www.plastikman.com go check out the "LIVE" section... look at that shit!@!!!

Yeah! that reminds me the following:

The music is the MOST important part of a party, if the music is good the party is good even if the guy who plays it is a stiff Bill Gates looking like geek dork behind a laptop.
If the music sucks the party sucks and having one or ten cool looking and energetic djs striking the Jesus pose on every tune won't help at all.

Now, the visual stimulation created by decorators and VJS definitevely adds a lot to create a richer experience.

And while many are still doubting about the possibilities that computers can bring to a dj, that guy Plastikman is three steps ahead and has already created a setup that allows him not only a better control of the music, but also create visuals, at the same time!!!
8o
that guy is pure genius!!!
 
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V. Interesting topic btw.

Just to add another dimension - i think there is still a long road for the digital dream to be realised, part of the simplicity of being a DJ is that you can rock up at a club with a bag of vinyl and a few scruffy cd's and you can go about your business. The equipment you are gonna use is pretty standard!

Unless you are PVD or Sasha you are gonna get a couple of sideways glances and some giggles of you want to rock up with a whole stack of computer equipment - or even just a pc for example, unless you know the club and the staff well. It's great if you have made a name to yourself, but most clubs here adopt the attitude of play vinyl or fuck off.

I'm all for mixing on PC myself!
 
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