What's responsible for muscle relaxation effect when doing psilocybin?

[macrocosmos]

Hi,

every time I do psilocybin I observe few repeatable effects:
- whole body muscle relaxation (feels like taking off a body armour),
- deeper breathing (usually my in/out-breath cycle takes few seconds, on mushrooms it's suddenly easier to breath and breath cycle can take 40 seconds - 20s for in and out breath)
- feeling of 'energy' veins inside my body, like blood vessels but with energy instead of blood.

I suspect I've some serious neurotransmitter imbalances that are "fixed" during a trip. I feel much more relaxed and intuitively more "myself".

What can be the cause of muscle relaxating / deeper breathing? Can it be low levels of acetylocholine? I read it's responsible for muscle tension - that would be an exaplanation, but how to test this hypothesis?

 

[pupnik]

that your interest follows your breathing is the whole key to this question.
following a long inhalation and a long exhalation cycle puts you in the groove to be relaxed.

 

[psy997]

It's all energy my friend. Chi, prana, etc.

 

[Solipsis]

You may not agree but I'd say that energy, while very relevant to work with in trips as acknowledging it and dealing with the ebb and flow appropriately seems to relate heavily to e.g. body load, I don't think there is a reason to assume that there is an esoteric explanation for it.
It's just holistic an approach in a way that makes pharmacology, neurology or endocrinology on their own come up short. But still that doesn't mean there are no pharmacological or neurological correlates.

I think it's fair to expect these energetic feelings in your body as a manifestation of the balance of nervous system activity (coupled to endocrine etc) - not only sober, but agitated by psychedelics and their profound action in the (neo)cortex where higher brain function takes place.
My guess about the 'muscle relaxation' or heaviness mentioned in the OP to be related to both decrease in blood pressure and heartrate (psilocin is also stimulating though in other ways), as well as an effect on the motor cortex and it's coherence with other regions... just like judgment or perception can get impaired. Serotonergic neurons heavily innervate the neocortex so if you find changes in function that takes place there at least partially that is I figure the reason. Motor control and skills are not the same as very fundamental ability of being able to move etc like controlled by the cerebellum which is lower in the brain and more affected by something like certain dissociatives which can really wipe you out. I think it's more about the conscious control. I couldn't say if this also explains the tremors you can get on tryptamines. Possibly that originates in the extrapyramidal system?

In particular 5-MeO tryptamines can be so stimulating in ways that make you feel the kind of "energy" psy is talking about, that I guess the activity demands to flow off to be relieved. I don't think it's unusual for CNS activity to be relieved by acknowledging or using it, so that the messages are delivered and heard (at least that is how I interpret that).

Acetylcholine is one of the things involved in muscle tension, but is not affected by psilocybin / psilocin. That would take an agonist, I don't think any are known to exist in shrooms or that it is a satisfying explanation since I don't believe these effects are exclusive to shrooms rather than RC tryptamines, and you would expect a lot of other messed up symptoms from a nicotinic or muscarinic agonist. Suffice to say that a direct agonist of the acetylcholine system is not needed to influence motor control, we know many drugs to be able to do that by various actions on the motor cortex.

 

[phuckingnutz]

Shrooms usually have the opposite effect on me. I get super sleepy and my whole body feels like lead, but this is mostly on the come-up and it subsides in an hour or so, but it's so bad that I have all but quit tripping on mushrooms.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

You may not agree but I'd say that energy, while very relevant to work with in trips as acknowledging it and dealing with the ebb and flow appropriately seems to relate heavily to e.g. body load, I don't think there is a reason to assume that there is an esoteric explanation for it.
It's just holistic an approach in a way that makes pharmacology, neurology or endocrinology on their own come up short. But still that doesn't mean there are no pharmacological or neurological correlates.

I think it's fair to expect these energetic feelings in your body as a manifestation of the balance of nervous system activity (coupled to endocrine etc) - not only sober, but agitated by psychedelics and their profound action in the (neo)cortex where higher brain function takes place.
My guess about the 'muscle relaxation' or heaviness mentioned in the OP to be related to both decrease in blood pressure and heartrate (psilocin is also stimulating though in other ways), as well as an effect on the motor cortex and it's coherence with other regions... just like judgment or perception can get impaired. Serotonergic neurons heavily innervate the neocortex so if you find changes in function that takes place there at least partially that is I figure the reason. Motor control and skills are not the same as very fundamental ability of being able to move etc like controlled by the cerebellum which is lower in the brain and more affected by something like certain dissociatives which can really wipe you out. I think it's more about the conscious control. I couldn't say if this also explains the tremors you can get on tryptamines. Possibly that originates in the extrapyramidal system?

In particular 5-MeO tryptamines can be so stimulating in ways that make you feel the kind of "energy" psy is talking about, that I guess the activity demands to flow off to be relieved. I don't think it's unusual for CNS activity to be relieved by acknowledging or using it, so that the messages are delivered and heard (at least that is how I interpret that).

Acetylcholine is one of the things involved in muscle tension, but is not affected by psilocybin / psilocin. That would take an agonist, I don't think any are known to exist in shrooms or that it is a satisfying explanation since I don't believe these effects are exclusive to shrooms rather than RC tryptamines, and you would expect a lot of other messed up symptoms from a nicotinic or muscarinic agonist. Suffice to say that a direct agonist of the acetylcholine system is not needed to influence motor control, we know many drugs to be able to do that by various actions on the motor cortex.

Is 5h2a not responsible for mediating vasoncostriction and vasodilation?
I'm very prone to muscle tension and honestly every single psychedelic causes me varying degrees of muscle tension with shrooms being no exception.
I have never experienced muscle relaxation on any psychedelic ever. MDMA however causes instantaneous and sometimes even painful muscle relaxation for me at its onset though.

 

[Solipsis]

Not mainly, but some pathways may very well lead to that IIRC. With enough action at 5HT2A it appears seizures and death are eventually not out of the question either. I couldn't say how much a role is played by vasoconstriction cutting off blood flow to vital organs and causing systemic failures - gangrene is not common with NBOMe OD afaik. But I think it's likely this happens downstream in the signal cascade and is more directly mediated by your usual suspects: the adrenergic system. Serious vasoconstriction from say DOX or NBOMes can be treated with tolazoline which is an adrenergic antagonist.

I don't know if milder agents are an option for milder (non-serious) vasoconstriction, but whatever you do don't use things causing (together or in one drug) both alpha and beta blocking. Vasoconstriction is not nice but messing with your adrenergic system further may be much more dangerous to be honest, and like serotonin syndrome, vasoconstriction seems to be very commonly self-misdiagnosed.

Muscle tension is not the same as vasoconstriction, there may be *some* interaction perhaps but they are different things - the tonus of your muscle, affected by nerve signals and mineral balances like of calcium and magnesium ions... vs cardiovascular effects involving how tight your veins are leading to difference in circulation and blood pressure.
My personal theory (let me remind you im not a doctor) is that reduced circulation can also cause limited nutrients to be delivered to muscles including minerals and other things, which can lead to cramps etc.

Have you tried starting with magnesium supplements for your muscle tension?

Painful muscle relaxation Muscle relaxants like nitrazepam or carisoprodol aren't known to be painful either so I wonder what that's about.. Maybe if you're out partying it can be a problem if your muscles are relaxed while you are demanding that your body dance? You'd feel oddly weak I guess although the MDMA is stimulating at the same time.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Not mainly, but some pathways may very well lead to that IIRC. With enough action at 5HT2A it appears seizures and death are eventually not out of the question either. I couldn't say how much a role is played by vasoconstriction cutting off blood flow to vital organs and causing systemic failures - gangrene is not common with NBOMe OD afaik. But I think it's likely this happens downstream in the signal cascade and is more directly mediated by your usual suspects: the adrenergic system. Serious vasoconstriction from say DOX or NBOMes can be treated with tolazoline which is an adrenergic antagonist.

I don't know if milder agents are an option for milder (non-serious) vasoconstriction, but whatever you do don't use things causing (together or in one drug) both alpha and beta blocking. Vasoconstriction is not nice but messing with your adrenergic system further may be much more dangerous to be honest, and like serotonin syndrome, vasoconstriction seems to be very commonly self-misdiagnosed.

Muscle tension is not the same as vasoconstriction, there may be *some* interaction perhaps but they are different things - the tonus of your muscle, affected by nerve signals and mineral balances like of calcium and magnesium ions... vs cardiovascular effects involving how tight your veins are leading to difference in circulation and blood pressure.
My personal theory (let me remind you im not a doctor) is that reduced circulation can also cause limited nutrients to be delivered to muscles including minerals and other things, which can lead to cramps etc.

Have you tried starting with magnesium supplements for your muscle tension?

Painful muscle relaxation Muscle relaxants like nitrazepam or carisoprodol aren't known to be painful either so I wonder what that's about.. Maybe if you're out partying it can be a problem if your muscles are relaxed while you are demanding that your body dance? You'd feel oddly weak I guess although the MDMA is stimulating at the same time.

Yeah I've tried everything you could think of from cal/mag supplements to massage/stretching/chiropractic/ acupunture/ Nsaids/ muscle pain rub (tiger balm ) and they all just seem to temporarily relive symptoms but I am really out of ideas besides genetics as to why I have constant and sometimes random muscle tension.
Most psychedelics exacerbate my symptoms but MDMA usually causes such relaxation thst I can literally feel all my muscles loosen up on the come up and sometimes the sensation of going from extreme muscle tension to extreme relaxation is actually painful when it happens very quickly.
The discomfort lasts only minutes which is followed by an extreme sense of physical relief. I don't know if anyone else experiences anything like this???
I noticed on Wikipedia that one of the (very) many things that the 5h2a receptor was responsible for was vasoncostriction and vasodilation but I suppose it's far more complicated than that. I really appreciate your wisdom and insight Solipsis