What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[epic11]

 

[epic11]

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7815 - Ecstasy, 7815

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result

www.ecstasydata.org

Interesting new one up on e-data. Sender expects it to be mdma, and was sold as mdma. Will be cool to see if they take care of the payment issue and we get a result on this one.

 

[vash445]

I don't have a forensic sample of this compound so I cannot try it.
...but you can read some anecdotal "evidence" about TLC on isopropylbenzylamine here.

I don't even think energy control has a forensic sample of isopropylbenzylamine TBH

 

[Glubrahnum]

Speaking of which and the 23 compounds GC/MS might miss on MDMA.

For example, the compound #7 depicted below (PubChem CID 85777948 ) elutes at the same time on GS as 3,4-MDMA and has the same ion fragmentation on MS as 3,4-MDMA.



Here you can read the paper where this is documented.

...compounds #3 and #7 continued to display very similar elution properties and mass spectra.
This similarity in retention properties was made more significant because compound #3 was 3,4-MDMA

 

[Glubrahnum]

This GC/MS challenging 2-(1,3-benzodioxol-4-yl)-N-ethylethanamine (PubChem CID 85777948 ) is very similar to the N-(1,3-benzodioxol-4-ylmethyl)propan-1-amine (PubChem CID 14153432), which was mentioned in this post (in the P.S.)



Maybe the latter one elutes and fragments similarly to the 3,4-MDMA, too.

Q: Would any of the synth routes, that have started to be used in last 5 years, produce these compounds as inadvertent byproducts?

 

[indigoaura]

I feel like this conversation just went to a new level. Exciting stuff.

So, if I am reading this correctly...someone could legally order one of these compounds and send it to a lab. They could say it was sold as MDMA and see if the lab indicates it is MDMA or something else. This would provide irrefutable evidence that one of the isobaries is undetected by GCMS lab testing. Furthermore, the lab could then be informed and advised to improve their overall methods.

Also, when you think about it, the ultimate "heist" would be for the mega labs to be KNOWINGLY making something legal, selling it as MDMA, and not running the risk of legal action for a controlled substance.

 

[Glubrahnum]

So, if I am reading this correctly...someone could legally order one of these compounds and send it to a lab. They could say it was sold as MDMA and see if the lab indicates it is MDMA or something else.

Yes, although these Canadian RC suppliers sell only to companies and edu. institutions.

This would provide irrefutable evidence that one of the isobaries is undetected by GCMS lab testing.

Do you want to start a KickStarter campaign to collect funds for purchasing forensic samples of these 32 isobaric compounds and sending them out to test the Test Centers ?

Furthermore, the lab could then be informed and advised to improve their overall methods.

Do you think they would improve their analysis methods immediately after learning about the problem or only after more PR pressure was applied ?

Also, when you think about it, the ultimate "heist" would be for the mega labs to be KNOWINGLY making something legal, selling it as MDMA, and not running the risk of legal action for a controlled substance.

That would be something, especially in the light of these 2,3-methylenedioxy precursors, which I have detected last year, but nothing short of a reliable field-test would stop such practices.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things.

Considering that pmk is the starting material it would be impossible for those things to be created during a mdma lab.

Those things would also not react the same way with all testing kits. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods.

 

[Glubrahnum]

NMR tests are not done by these Testing Centers very often.

IMO the chemical shifts in the 1D hydrogen NMR can be conflated between some of these isobaries.
Carbon NMR would be more definite, but that is done even less frequently than hydrogen NMR.
NMR is a bulk analysis technique and without separation of mixtures by e.g. GC or HPLC, some NMR peaks belonging to different compounds can overlap and be obscured.

Last but not least, 1D NMR cannot differentiate stereoisomers.

 

[Glubrahnum]

They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things.

Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't. Especially this one:

Quote from: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory

Our lab switched [in 2010] to ethyl PMK-glycidate as a precursor. This was unwatched, and we were able to source it from China at a very competitive price,” he said.

He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. “It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration,”

How about you?

 

[vash445]

Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't. Especially this one:

How about you?

Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't. Especially this one:

How about you?

Holy crap.

He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. “It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration,”

So someone DID figure out the one pot? holyshit!!! to my knowledge this isnt discussed on the hyperlab at all.

 

[vash445]

I feel like this conversation just went to a new level. Exciting stuff.

So, if I am reading this correctly...someone could legally order one of these compounds and send it to a lab. They could say it was sold as MDMA and see if the lab indicates it is MDMA or something else. This would provide irrefutable evidence that one of the isobaries is undetected by GCMS lab testing. Furthermore, the lab could then be informed and advised to improve their overall methods.

Also, when you think about it, the ultimate "heist" would be for the mega labs to be KNOWINGLY making something legal, selling it as MDMA, and not running the risk of legal action for a controlled substance.

I feel like they would send it to a lab... and CUT it with MDMA like the N-iso meth.. but straight out subbing with a lab in china is entirely possibly.. never thought of that...

 

[vash445]

Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't. Especially this one:

How about you?

MDMA via Helional via curtis is the new one...

The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production - PMC

Humankind has used and abused psychoactive drugs for millennia. Formally, a psychoactive drug is any agent that alters cognition and mood. The term “psychotropic drug” is neutral and describes the entire class of substrates, licit and illicit, of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Also some OZ scientist have found MDP2P from Helional via a novel rearrangement... I have asked MULTIPLE scientist with school email etc. so I have no idea on impurtities. and still nothing :/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322565001_Short_Communication_A_Novel_Synthesis_of_34-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone_MDP2P_from_Helional

I have a few unique routes as well. One going thru the route OF BK-MDMA and wacking off that double bond...

 

[vash445]

They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things.

Considering that pmk is the starting material it would be impossible for those things to be created during a mdma lab.

Those things would also not react the same way with all testing kits. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods.

. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods. Well for one ENERGY control uses...
UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis): This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B so ya.. I think xtcdata is the same
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Process and techniques:

Gas Chromatography–Mass Spectrometry (GC-MS): We use this system to separate and identify most compounds. We perform a first-screening analysis with this technique to detect compounds. We also use GC-MS to quantify cocaine, amphetamine, benzodiazepines, cannabis and some other drugs.
Liquid Chromatography–Mass Spectrometry (LC-MS): Using this system we can quantify substances that can be degraded at high temperatures like LSD or Modafinil. We can also quantify drugs that require high precision techniques such as fentanyl.
Ion Trap-Mass Spectrometry (IT-MS): This process is used to calculate the molecular mass of a compound and perform fragmentation techniques in order to detect substances that cannot be identified by GC-MS. This technique is used to investigate new compounds and confirm any inconclusive results.
High-Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC): We use a HPLC linked to an ultraviolet detector (HPLC-UV), mainly for quantifying LSD.
UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis): This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B

Drug Testing Service - International Energy Control

energycontrol-international.org

 

[vash445]

Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't. Especially this one:

How about you?

EC uses UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis): This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B so ya.. I think xtcdata is the same.

Do you know if they would react the same to that test as well?

 

[Deleted member 521610]

Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't. Especially this one:

How about you?

Yes.

Thats old news one pot pmk methods were invented in a jail cell by a ex bayer dutch chemical engineer in late 90s early 2000s and used as early as 2003 in australian mdma labs

nothing new they have been around for a while.

It doesn't take a chemist to realize the 3,4 postions are the starting postions in every starting precouser to mdma including safrole

 

[vash445]

Yes.

Thats old news one pot pmk methods were invented in a jail cell by a ex bayer dutch chemical engineer in late 90s early 2000s and used as early as 2003 in australian mdma labs

nothing new they have been around for a while.

It doesn't take a chemist to realize the 3,4 postions are the starting postions in every starting precouser to mdma including safrole

NOOOO pill of the gods? converting the glyciate is converted to MDP2P ketone with acid... then converting to MDMA. It is a know and well documented MDMA route, 2 steps from glycidate which should make 50/50 R/S MDMA... This is saying Glycidate to MDMA in a single concerted step!!! HUGE DEAL

The old Glyciate route has been around since at least TS2 in 1998 located page 95... barium posted success in 2003/4 he was dutch I believe. Rhodium also as well in 2003. This was the route he went I know what you are talking about... The guy your talking about def didn't create ANYTHING NOVEL or unique DAL CARSON for DEA talked D wrote about this method in his 1990 forensic article An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs (scroll down to the "Precursors" section). In that article, Das Cason references it from Elks, J. and Hey, D. H., "?-3,4-Methylenedioxyphenylisopropylamine," Journal of the Chemical Society, 15-16 (1943) as one of the known routes to MDP2P in the scientific literature. That 1943 article has been on Rhodium's Archive probably from 2003 onward since August 2003 is when Rhodium posted that article at the hive. In that 1943 paper, the authors mention the "recent publication" of British Patent GB519894 "which directs attention to this route to substituted ?-phenylisopropylamines from the corresponding substituted benzaldehydes" and they claim to have started work on this route in 1939!


Think or lookup the Aminomercuration of safrole to MDMA!!! It doesn't go to ketone just sassy to MDMA one pot same idea... NOONE on the hive or HYPERLAB have a "1 POT" .. A close to 1 pot exists from helional to MDA...

This would prove it was an enantiomer dominance because the glycidate is has that and it's the only way possible avoiding the glyciate... this rabbit hole gets weirder and weirder.. and all it can can be causing the same or similar causes WOW the rabbit hole deepens...
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This guy right?
There's an ebook called 'Pills Of God' on Amazon about one of the guys involved in the discovery of this process, it happened much earlier than 2012 though.

He was a Dutch cook and flew to Shanghai to a factory where they had dozens of tons of PMK they couldn't sell because it had been recently banned. He put 2mil upfront he borrowed off the author of the book and had the factories entire stock converted into this new precursor and shipped a bit to Australia and the rest to Europe. The author of the book was an Australian cook the Dutch guy met when they were both in jail in the US a decade or so earlier.

Unfortunately the dutch cook had a bad stroke and became basically a vegetable, and the Australian guy got busted running the largest MDMA lab my country had ever seen (He pulled off a single reaction yielding more than 500kg of MDMA) and got 25 years hard time in maximum security. You can write to him in prison and he responds, his name is Steven Spaliviero.
____________________________________________________________________

Def not one pot he just convert GLYCIDATE in a 2 step reaction... the 1 pot as described is TRULY almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration ..NOONE on the hive has a 1 pot... it has to make ketone first

 

[Deleted member 521610]

NOOOO pill of the gods? converting the glyciate is converted to MDP2P ketone with acid... then converting to MDMA. It is a know and well documented MDMA route, 2 steps from glycidate which should make 50/50 R/S MDMA... This is saying Glycidate to MDMA in a single concerted step!!! HUGE DEAL

The old Glyciate route has been around since at least TS2 in 1998 located page 95... barium posted success in 2003/4 he was dutch I believe. Rhodium also as well in 2003. This was the route he went I know what you are talking about... The guy your talking about def didn't create ANYTHING NOVEL or unique DAL CARSON for DEA talked D wrote about this method in his 1990 forensic article An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs (scroll down to the "Precursors" section). In that article, Das Cason references it from Elks, J. and Hey, D. H., "?-3,4-Methylenedioxyphenylisopropylamine," Journal of the Chemical Society, 15-16 (1943) as one of the known routes to MDP2P in the scientific literature. That 1943 article has been on Rhodium's Archive probably from 2003 onward since August 2003 is when Rhodium posted that article at the hive. In that 1943 paper, the authors mention the "recent publication" of British Patent GB519894 "which directs attention to this route to substituted ?-phenylisopropylamines from the corresponding substituted benzaldehydes" and they claim to have started work on this route in 1939!


Think or lookup the Aminomercuration of safrole to MDMA!!! It doesn't go to ketone just sassy to MDMA one pot same idea... NOONE on the hive or HYPERLAB have a "1 POT" .. A close to 1 pot exists from helional to MDA...

This would prove it was an enantiomer dominance because the glycidate is has that and it's the only way possible avoiding the glyciate... this rabbit hole gets weirder and weirder.. and all it can can be causing the same or similar causes WOW the rabbit hole deepens...
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This guy right?
There's an ebook called 'Pills Of God' on Amazon about one of the guys involved in the discovery of this process, it happened much earlier than 2012 though.

He was a Dutch cook and flew to Shanghai to a factory where they had dozens of tons of PMK they couldn't sell because it had been recently banned. He put 2mil upfront he borrowed off the author of the book and had the factories entire stock converted into this new precursor and shipped a bit to Australia and the rest to Europe. The author of the book was an Australian cook the Dutch guy met when they were both in jail in the US a decade or so earlier.

Unfortunately the dutch cook had a bad stroke and became basically a vegetable, and the Australian guy got busted running the largest MDMA lab my country had ever seen (He pulled off a single reaction yielding more than 500kg of MDMA) and got 25 years hard time in maximum security. You can write to him in prison and he responds, his name is Steven Spaliviero.
____________________________________________________________________

Def not one pot he just convert GLYCIDATE in a 2 step reaction... the 1 pot as described is TRULY almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration ..NOONE on the hive has a 1 pot... it has to make ketone first

That book author is the mdmda i use to mid in 2000s the people that went under with him and still in jail are people i use to get amazing mdma off from those aussies. Sydney was fucking insane during his time and the pigs came and ruined all the fun. he is also out of prison his partner was a crazy bitch and tried to get hits done on witnesses

 

[vash445]

Another novel route is dutch labs starting with helional Cas number 1205-17-0 around with the surge in people reporting mehmdma. Maybe this very unknown precouser could a be a source of the trash stuff.

NOT really. HELIONAL is only good for MDA. A "NEW MDMA" route via a curtius rearrangement was published in 2019, so unless someone got really creative beforehand doubtful. Not wise for chemist to stay to far off established routes...

That MDA is that "DIRT Brown" MDA I've been told. looks like dirt, taste like shit, gets you fucked upped. Can you get to MDMA from helional Yes but like piperonal its best for MDA

 

[vash445]

I can see several ways they could do this transformation beckman rearrangement via oxime to amide then hofmann to get rid of one carbon to give MDA (unless the isocyanate can be trapped and reduced in situ to give MDMA which would be truly novel) or oxidation to carboxylic acid formation of amide and then hofmann to MDA. MDA can be converted to MDMA but it is not really that straight forward. There are alternatives to Hofmann but Hofmann is cheap.
All pretty poor compared to PMK glycidate, for that reason it is likely that most of the commercial MDMA is the route going PMK glycidate to PMK then reductive amination. That is the easiest route without involving controlled precursors and most likely to be used.

Glubrahnum I suggest you count the number of carbons on helional... I'm glad you have a job with fancy toys but I disagree with the idea that isobaric compounds will fool GCMS, They won't and no you don't need expensive columns, a short DB5 will separate the isomers as the paper way back in this thread showed.
MDMA is still MDMA, but what else is present is probably part of the issue and I doubt it is synthesis by-products.

This is academically interesting but I think you are looking too hard for one answer when there are several.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322565001_Short_Communication_A_Novel_Synthesis_of_34-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone_MDP2P_from_Helional

The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6205722/#!po=52.5751